Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If a flyrant attaches to a lone tyrant guard (as is allowed in the codex).....and you place the flyrant behind the guard.....bear with me. Move the Guard up 6"....then fly the flyrant overhead 12". The unit has coherency, but one model is flying in the air....the other is on the ground. How do you resolve shots against the unit??

I don't know the exact rule, but I'm pretty sure there is something somewhere that disallows that. And if there isn't, well, it's really stupid to do that. >.<

Without checking, I'd actually put money on the belief that there is nothing in the rulebook to cover a unit where half has the Hard to Hit rule and the other doesn't.

GW doesn't exactly shine in cases of mixed units, such as whether Monster Hunter works against a unit is only partly made up of Monstrous Creatures.

You would shoot as normal, because you are not shooting a the MC alone, you are shooting at the unit as a whole.

The unit as a whole does not have the hard to hit rule because hard to hit is not worded like Stealth where it says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..."

Instead it says "Shots resolved at such a target" and that refers to "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons." (Unit types chapter, Hard to hit section).

The unit is not "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature" so you hit based off of BS.

There is no current way RAW to deal with it, despite what DR stated.


A more likely way to handle it would be having to snap fire because you can "only" snap fire at models with hard to hit rule.

Just like with majority toughness, you always give advantage to the guy getting shot at.

Eihnlazer wrote:
There is no current way RAW to deal with it, despite what DR stated.


A more likely way to handle it would be having to snap fire because you can "only" snap fire at models with hard to hit rule.

Just like with majority toughness, you always give advantage to the guy getting shot at.

Not true.

The unit is not "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature" so you hit based off of BS.

Unless you can prove that the unit is "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature" Got a quote that says this?

Do you have a quote saying a model that has Hard to Hit can ever be hit by anything that isnt a snap shot unless the model shooting has skyfire?

Eihnlazer wrote:
Do you have a quote saying a model that has Hard to Hit can ever be hit by anything that isnt a snap shot unless the model shooting has skyfire?

It is in the Hard to hit rule.

The unit is not "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature" and hard to hit only applies to "Shots resolved at such a target" which the unit is clearly not.

When you target the unit you check if hard to hit applies, so you check if the target unit is "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature", find out it is not because there is not a single creature, and you hit as normal. Because Hard to hit only applies to "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature" not A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and any unit it is attached to.

Also the Tyrant joins the unit as if it were an IC.

When you do this the Tyrant is a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

The Tyrant guard does not have the Hard to hit rule as such it does not apply.

I get the point that the tyrant is joining the tyrant guard, so is part of the tyrant guard unit.


There is still nothing in the BRB about how to handle a unit of mixed swooping and infantry creatures though.

For the sake of keeping things simple and less argumentive im gonna just say flyrants cannot be joined to tyrant guard while swooping in my games.

Eihnlazer wrote:
I get the point that the tyrant is joining the tyrant guard, so is part of the tyrant guard unit.


There is still nothing in the BRB about how to handle a unit of mixed swooping and infantry creatures though.

For the sake of keeping things simple and less argumentive im gonna just say flyrants cannot be joined to tyrant guard while swooping in my games.

So since you have a unit of tyrant guard, does the tyrant guard unit have the Hard to Hit rule? (I do not see Hard to Hit listed under their unit type or their special rules).

I was under the impression that a FMC in flying mode couldn't join units. He'd have to be in "ground mode" and move around as a JMC instead. Then yeah, he could move 12" and as long as he's in coherency he's in the unit, but he's on the ground so he's not hard to hit. As soon as he "takes off" so to speak, coherency is broken.

 Bolg da Goff wrote:
I was under the impression that a FMC in flying mode couldn't join units. He'd have to be in "ground mode" and move around as a JMC instead. Then yeah, he could move 12" and as long as he's in coherency he's in the unit, but he's on the ground so he's not hard to hit. As soon as he "takes off" so to speak, coherency is broken.

There's no rule saying that whatsoever.

Yeah I just checked the big book now and it doesn't cover the topic at all. Bizarre. It doesn't look like the Tyranid book says anything about it either.

Congrats, broke the game (business as usual)

also - tyrants have to move at least 18" to be flying correct?
I feel like this is a non-issue because of this.

I think it's still a viable tactic though - my question is does the unit benefit from a jinking flying tyrant? Because bundled with a venom that's a nice 2+ save with a rather tough unit.

You can in fact have a melee flyrant on the ground gliding with a 2+ jink now with the help of a venom or malanthrope.

I am very tempted to run one. He's like a demon prince that's slightly cheaper but has worse psychic power selection.

 Bolg da Goff wrote:
Yeah I just checked the big book now and it doesn't cover the topic at all. Bizarre. It doesn't look like the Tyranid book says anything about it either.

Congrats, broke the game (business as usual)

Why is the game broken specifically?

 digital-animal wrote:
also - tyrants have to move at least 18" to be flying correct?
I feel like this is a non-issue because of this.

I think it's still a viable tactic though - my question is does the unit benefit from a jinking flying tyrant? Because bundled with a venom that's a nice 2+ save with a rather tough unit.

Flyer vehicles have to to go a minimum of 18". FMCs like the tyrant only have to go a minimum of 12"

I'd agree with DR here, by RaW the Swooping MC is simply another model in the Unit being targeted: a Unit of Tyrant guard.

Do you snap shoot at a unit of Tyrant guard?

Don't you have to move as fast as the slowest model anyhow? So in theory the FMC could only move 6" so would not be swooping.

 cptjoeyg wrote:
Don't you have to move as fast as the slowest model anyhow? So in theory the FMC could only move 6" so would not be swooping.

That hasn't been a rule since 5th ed. Any member of the unit is free to move as far as they wish/are allowed to, so long as coherency is maintained.

You could actually do this in 6th also, just took a full TG squad and a very zig-zag route for the flyrant to make it work. As far as I know it is the only case in the game, and has been overlooked by GW.

 cptjoeyg wrote:
Don't you have to move as fast as the slowest model anyhow? So in theory the FMC could only move 6" so would not be swooping.

Only when performing an assault move. Because the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barnowl wrote:
You could actually do this in 6th also, just took a full TG squad and a very zig-zag route for the flyrant to make it work. As far as I know it is the only case in the game, and has been overlooked by GW.

But you still hit the unit of Tyrant guard as normal, so it never "Worked" because it never conferred the Hard to hit rule.

My vote is that the (entire) unit doesn't have the hard to hit rule, only the flyrant does. It seems shady, but I have no access to FMCs and don't use flyers so I'll defer to a coherent and consider RAW quotes if there exists clear enough rules to support it.

Also, the flyrant is elevated so he is NOT the closest model (use the hypotenuse to measure distance). The flyrant would need to be somewhat ahead to be the closest model by a^2+b^2=c^2.

Also, how would you handle the guard getting charged? Would you try to deny your opponent the ability to even charge the combined unit? What happens to the flying MC afterwards? Can he be hit, can he change modes can he hit in the turn he lands, after he lands? etc.


All of this assumes that a unit is allowed to have multiple movement modes, particularly including fast flyers.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Also, the flyrant is elevated so he is NOT the closest model (use the hypotenuse to measure distance). The flyrant would need to be somewhat ahead to be the closest model by a^2+b^2=c^2.

Please cite the rule telling you to take his flight into account for determining range?

rigeld2 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Also, the flyrant is elevated so he is NOT the closest model (use the hypotenuse to measure distance). The flyrant would need to be somewhat ahead to be the closest model by a^2+b^2=c^2.

Please cite the rule telling you to take his flight into account for determining range?

The measuring distances is deceptive since it says always, then the Flyer section says otherwise:

FLYERS AND MEASURING
Flyers have flying bases that suspend them above the battlefield. However, distances are still measured to and from the Flyer’s hull, with the exception of the vehicle’s weapons and Fire Points, which all work as normal. The base of a Flyer is effectively ignored, except for when:

I'll take this as advanced>basic.

Assault is a good question too. If the swooping hive tryant is attached to a guard, and you assault the guard, is the HT immune to the spillover or challenges?

RAWRAI, why are you quoting Flyer rules when we are talking about FMCs?

Indded, flyers are not FMC, so disregard the previous for RAW purposes, if not RAI.

More importantly, the unit is NOT hard to hit which defeates much of the expected purpose of the tactic.

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
...
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes
...
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

So the hard to hit is not conveyed to the unit. You are shooting the unit and the unit is not hard to hit, even if one model has it.
We then follow normal rules for:
Your hits apply to the non swooping unit, you use majority toughness to wound and then apply look out sir/armour/etc save as normal.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Also, the flyrant is elevated so he is NOT the closest model (use the hypotenuse to measure distance). The flyrant would need to be somewhat ahead to be the closest model by a^2+b^2=c^2.

Please cite the rule telling you to take his flight into account for determining range?

The measuring distances is deceptive since it says always, then the Flyer section says otherwise:

FLYERS AND MEASURING
Flyers have flying bases that suspend them above the battlefield. However, distances are still measured to and from the Flyer’s hull, with the exception of the vehicle’s weapons and Fire Points, which all work as normal. The base of a Flyer is effectively ignored, except for when:

I'll take this as advanced>basic.

Why are you quoting Flyer rules for an FMC?

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Indded, flyers are not FMC, so disregard the previous for RAW purposes, if not RAI.

More importantly, the unit is NOT hard to hit which defeates much of the expected purpose of the tactic.

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
...
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes
...
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

So the hard to hit is not conveyed to the unit. You are shooting the unit and the unit is not hard to hit, even if one model has it.
We then follow normal rules for:
Your hits apply to the non swooping unit, you use majority toughness to wound and then apply look out sir/armour/etc save as normal.

but hive tyrants aren't independent characters.

EDIT: however I agree that is the way to play it.