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He doesn't seem to have much respect for many of them(can you blame him). He sees Pertaburo a "my bitter brother" and seems disgusted by someone who would commit genocide against their own home world. His opinion of Konrad seems very similar refusing to say anything about him besides "he's my brother". His opinion of Lorgar is pretty much the same as before, a little bit of admiration mixed with derision. I have the feeling that he sent Angron to help Lorgar so he could be someone else's problem on what he and other seem to regard as a suicide mission against the Ultramarines(again not a bad assessment). Kurze is also sent on a suicide run. Strangely the only primarchs he informs of his real plans on Molech are Fulgrim and Mortarion. Maybe because this is because they were the only ones who joined him out of loyalty rather than settling some vendetta they had against another Legion or the Emperor. It makes me wonder how exactly he thought he was going to rule the Imperium if he thought so poorly of his followers(then again maybe he thought most them would be dead and he could start from scratch).

I remember he once lamented having only "broken toy" Primarchs by his side.

Most of it is from the John French audio "Warmaster".

That's what I thought too. Horus would be an Emperor of a force half the size of Daddy's, with nuts like Angron, Perturabo and Curze, with anguished Magnus, dependent Lorgar, freaky Mortarion, conniving Al & Om and perverted Fulgrim.

How we would control them I'm not sure.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Most of it is from the John French audio "Warmaster".

That's what I thought too. Horus would be an Emperor of a force half the size of Daddy's, with nuts like Angron, Perturabo and Curze, with anguished Magnus, dependent Lorgar, freaky Mortarion, conniving Al & Om and perverted Fulgrim.

How we would control them I'm not sure.

I'm pretty sure you can add somewhat identical epithets to the loyalists either...probably except for vulkan - he's a fireman saving kids from burning houses.

I don't know though. The loyalists at least had a vaguely common purpose and loyalty to their father.

 koooaei wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Most of it is from the John French audio "Warmaster".

That's what I thought too. Horus would be an Emperor of a force half the size of Daddy's, with nuts like Angron, Perturabo and Curze, with anguished Magnus, dependent Lorgar, freaky Mortarion, conniving Al & Om and perverted Fulgrim.

How we would control them I'm not sure.

I'm pretty sure you can add somewhat identical epithets to the loyalists either...probably except for vulkan - he's a fireman saving kids from burning houses.

I don't know if anything that can be really said about any of the loyalist Primarchs. They haven't been fleshed out quite as much as the Traitor Primarchs. The loyalist Primarch with the most characterization is Dorn and I don't think any of those words could be said about Dorn.

Perturabo wasn't crazy, he was a genius. He was just bitter by the treatment that he received. He saw that he worked just as hard but never got the praise like his other brothers, in particular Dorn.

 Envihon wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Most of it is from the John French audio "Warmaster".

That's what I thought too. Horus would be an Emperor of a force half the size of Daddy's, with nuts like Angron, Perturabo and Curze, with anguished Magnus, dependent Lorgar, freaky Mortarion, conniving Al & Om and perverted Fulgrim.

How we would control them I'm not sure.

I'm pretty sure you can add somewhat identical epithets to the loyalists either...probably except for vulkan - he's a fireman saving kids from burning houses.

I don't know if anything that can be really said about any of the loyalist Primarchs. They haven't been fleshed out quite as much as the Traitor Primarchs. The loyalist Primarch with the most characterization is Dorn and I don't think any of those words could be said about Dorn.

Perturabo wasn't crazy, he was a genius. He was just bitter by the treatment that he received. He saw that he worked just as hard but never got the praise like his other brothers, in particular Dorn.

Vulkan was poorly handled in Promethean Sun, and the Khan hasn't been fleshed out yet. I find the Lion the most confusing, different authors portray him so differently.

 Envihon wrote:


Perturabo wasn't crazy, he was a genius. He was just bitter by the treatment that he received. He saw that he worked just as hard but never got the praise like his other brothers, in particular Dorn.

He was certainly every bit, if not more so, talented then Dorn. But perhaps it was his character that caused the way his brothers acted around him, they knew him to be a fairly cold individual, perhaps they would have poured more favour on him if he had had more camaraderie with his brothers.

It's also funny that he aims his resentment at the Emperor when, as Warmaster, Horus is likely to be as responsible for the way the Iron Warriors were treated. I guess then it's a case of who do you throw your lot in with after you kill the population of your home world.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Envihon wrote:


Perturabo wasn't crazy, he was a genius. He was just bitter by the treatment that he received. He saw that he worked just as hard but never got the praise like his other brothers, in particular Dorn.

He was certainly every bit, if not more so, talented then Dorn. But perhaps it was his character that caused the way his brothers acted around him, they knew him to be a fairly cold individual, perhaps they would have poured more favour on him if he had had more camaraderie with his brothers.

It's also funny that he aims his resentment at the Emperor when, as Warmaster, Horus is likely to be as responsible for the way the Iron Warriors were treated. I guess then it's a case of who do you throw your lot in with after you kill the population of your home world.

The only person that Perturabo connected with was Magnus because they both were classic scholars, he isn't even following Horus because he is loyal to him but because he wants to teach the Emperor a lesson. Horus isn't using any of the Traitors for their loyalty to him really but relying on their frustrations with their father, something that he exploits horribly. Perturabo comments several times about how it seems that his brothers have lost it like with the incident with Fulgrim. I am still trying to figure how Horus even kept them together in one force if all of them except maybe Fulgrim and Lorgar, have their own agendas.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Vulkan was poorly handled in Promethean Sun, and the Khan hasn't been fleshed out yet. I find the Lion the most confusing, different authors portray him so differently.

Have you read Brotherhood of the Storm and Scars? I feel the Khan had been fleshed out quite nicely. But yes, the Lion is kind of a mess in terms of characterization.
I also believe that Guilliman had gotten a tremendous amount of character between Know No Fear and Unremembered Empire.

 Envihon wrote:

The only person that Perturabo connected with was Magnus because they both were classic scholars, he isn't even following Horus because he is loyal to him but because he wants to teach the Emperor a lesson. Horus isn't using any of the Traitors for their loyalty to him really but relying on their frustrations with their father, something that he exploits horribly. Perturabo comments several times about how it seems that his brothers have lost it like with the incident with Fulgrim. I am still trying to figure how Horus even kept them together in one force if all of them except maybe Fulgrim and Lorgar, have their own agendas.

Which is my point, if he wasn't such a sullen individual then maybe his relationships would have been better formed. Both Sanguinius and Fulgrim had appreciation for such things, as did Guilliman.

Who does he want to teach a lesson to, the Emperor or Dorn He also believes that since Olympia he doesn't have a choice, as Horus made him believe that he couldn't be forgiven. So as I said who do you throw your lot in with. His only real choice was Horus.

And tell me something I don't know. Horus exploits all of the Primarchs in some way or the other, that's what made him a great candidate for Warmaster in the first place. The exploitations before the heresy erupted had more honest intentions though. Even loyalists don't escape him during the heresy, look how he convinced Sanguinius to go to Signus, or how he convinced Russ to let rip on Propero.

The only Primarch who possibly doesn't have his own agenda is Mortarion at this point, he genuinely seems to be helping Horus because he wants to. But does he like Horus, the IA seems to suggest that Horus was the only Primarch that he had any form of bond with.

I don't think his opinion of any of his brothers is that high at this stage where we are in the series. They are all tools to be used by Horus to achieve his goals. He might seem sincere or to show interest and compassion but it's not more than a facade. But if anyone can pull it off and keep the unruly children in some form of order than it's Horus who can do it.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

The only person that Perturabo connected with was Magnus because they both were classic scholars, he isn't even following Horus because he is loyal to him but because he wants to teach the Emperor a lesson. Horus isn't using any of the Traitors for their loyalty to him really but relying on their frustrations with their father, something that he exploits horribly. Perturabo comments several times about how it seems that his brothers have lost it like with the incident with Fulgrim. I am still trying to figure how Horus even kept them together in one force if all of them except maybe Fulgrim and Lorgar, have their own agendas.

Which is my point, if he wasn't such a sullen individual then maybe his relationships would have been better formed. Both Sanguinius and Fulgrim had appreciation for such things, as did Guilliman.

Who does he want to teach a lesson to, the Emperor or Dorn He also believes that since Olympia he doesn't have a choice, as Horus made him believe that he couldn't be forgiven. So as I said who do you throw your lot in with. His only real choice was Horus.

And tell me something I don't know. Horus exploits all of the Primarchs in some way or the other, that's what made him a great candidate for Warmaster in the first place. The exploitations before the heresy erupted had more honest intentions though. Even loyalists don't escape him during the heresy, look how he convinced Sanguinius to go to Signus, or how he convinced Russ to let rip on Propero.

The only Primarch who possibly doesn't have his own agenda is Mortarion at this point, he genuinely seems to be helping Horus because he wants to. But does he like Horus, the IA seems to suggest that Horus was the only Primarch that he had any form of bond with.

I don't think his opinion of any of his brothers is that high at this stage where we are in the series. They are all tools to be used by Horus to achieve his goals. He might seem sincere or to show interest and compassion but it's not more than a facade. But if anyone can pull it off and keep the unruly children in some form of order than it's Horus who can do it.

This would then beg the question: Is Horus' rebellion justifiable or self-fulfilling indulgence that they not only caused their fates but now are using it as an excuse to feed selfish desires? I think the HH series does a great job in showing both sides of the conflict and allows us to relate to the traitor Primarchs but it is usually told from their perception and if there is anything we know of being slighted, we tend to view it differently when we are the ones slighted. Put simply, did the traitors have a hand in their fates? We can see why they they hated the Emperor and how Chaos seeped into their lives but was it all because they refused to see the larger picture and fed on their selfish desire something then Horus exploited in turn thus Chaos through him?

jareddm wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Vulkan was poorly handled in Promethean Sun, and the Khan hasn't been fleshed out yet. I find the Lion the most confusing, different authors portray him so differently.

Have you read Brotherhood of the Storm and Scars? I feel the Khan had been fleshed out quite nicely. But yes, the Lion is kind of a mess in terms of characterization.
I also believe that Guilliman had gotten a tremendous amount of character between Know No Fear and Unremembered Empire.

The Khan's character has signs of being fleshed, but his scenes are too short. I do like Guilliman's dickishness, he's just like his main rival Horus.

I think each are to blame for their own fates yes, each played a part in their own downfall.You can blame Horus for the Heresy, but each in turn went along with it.

Each achieved their own goal in a way and are lords of their own little Empires, but at what cost. Each are as big a slave, if not bigger, as they were serving the Emperor.

The only exclusions are Curze and Horus because they are, well, dead.

I don't think many have a good reason for hating the Emperor, I think some of the reasons for their falling are rather minor from our perspective. Even Horus, from the books so far, seems to have not much of a reason. Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire you get a sense of just how much love he has for the Emperor. It's made his fall seem rather unfounded. It needs to be fleshed out if you ask me because as it is, he gets angry at a statue after getting a boo boo.

Remember that Alpharius and Omegon were found by horus and not the emperor, the only primarchs not found by the emperor. After that Horus kept them a secret from the rest of the gang for a while while he played father/mentor.

He probably had some foundness for them and probably some pitty, as they are smaller, seem younger, and had no homeworld

 Exergy wrote:
Remember that Alpharius and Omegon were found by horus and not the emperor, the only primarchs not found by the emperor. After that Horus kept them a secret from the rest of the gang for a while while he played father/mentor.

He probably had some fondness for them and probably some pitty, as they are smaller, seem younger, and had no homeworld

They had a homeworld as far as I know, just not one known by anyone else, even Horus. Did Horus ever find out about Omegon, I thought that was a secret from everybody bar the Alpha Legion?

Horus certainly had friendships with Primarchs, Fulgrim is supposed to be his closely friend after Sanguinius.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Remember that Alpharius and Omegon were found by horus and not the emperor, the only primarchs not found by the emperor. After that Horus kept them a secret from the rest of the gang for a while while he played father/mentor.

He probably had some fondness for them and probably some pitty, as they are smaller, seem younger, and had no homeworld

They had a homeworld as far as I know, just not one known by anyone else, even Horus. Did Horus ever find out about Omegon, I thought that was a secret from everybody bar the Alpha Legion?

Horus certainly had friendships with Primarchs, Fulgrim is supposed to be his closely friend after Sanguinius.

It is possible they landed on a world, but they also could have landed on a space hulk or some sort of space transport. They were the only primarchs that were not discovered on a planet but rather sought out the IoM by trying to attack Horus's flagship.

I dont know if Horus knew that there were two of them. They could have had him going just like everyone else.

Angron, Perturabo and Curze, with anguished Magnus, dependent Lorgar, freaky Mortarion, conniving Al & Om and perverted Fulgrim.

I agree with that except for Lorgar and Mortarion, Lorgars problem is eventually he'd be Horus's rival, and Mortarion seems to be a pretty normal guy till he got stranded in the warp.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Remember that Alpharius and Omegon were found by horus and not the emperor, the only primarchs not found by the emperor. After that Horus kept them a secret from the rest of the gang for a while while he played father/mentor.

He probably had some fondness for them and probably some pitty, as they are smaller, seem younger, and had no homeworld

They had a homeworld as far as I know, just not one known by anyone else, even Horus. Did Horus ever find out about Omegon, I thought that was a secret from everybody bar the Alpha Legion?

Horus certainly had friendships with Primarchs, Fulgrim is supposed to be his closely friend after Sanguinius.

Horus was friends with everyone. In a lot of the traitor's stories there is a running theme of "no close bonds with any save possibly X Primarch for doing this with them and Horus."

Lorgar for instance was really only close with Magnus and Horus. Curze with Fulgrim in any sense due to Fulgrim's education, and Horus for his acceptance. Alpharius was only really accepted by Horus. Perturabo felt that only Horus appreciated him. Fulgrim was close to Ferrus and Horus and he felt a kinship with Sanguinius because of all the fancy stuff but the feeling was no reciprocated. Mortarion was pretty normal, no real enemies. Magnus was an outcazt due to his sorcery and physical appearance but was close with Horus.

Hell, he was even close with a number of good guys. He and Dorn I remember got on well, and I'd expect him and Russ to have had plenty of time together (Russ was the 2nd Primarch found) and both being "Wolves" and such. The Lion was jealous of his position but prior to that I believe there was some respect. Guilliman respected his achievements, as did Manus. Vulkan would have respected his humbleness and conduct of Legion meetings, which were informal and anyone could speak at. Corax was like the last found before Alpharius. And Sanguinius of course.

Corax

Correction, Corax hated his guts to the point he used the troops who had served alongside Horus to be used for a frontal assault. This is probably why Horus never tried to recruit him.

Yea, Corax was given an incident that made him despise Horus, which interestlygly resulted in his legion getting purged of most Horus lovers and the warrior lodge system long before the Heresy.

Horus was supposed to like Alpharius but there are signs that even Alpharius was starting to get on his nerves in the latest Forgeworld book (at that point Alpharius seems to be betraying EVERYONE).

Horus did like Fulgrim until the end at least... (for now). Not including the daemon that he knew was possessing Fulgrim but swore to himself that he'd get out of Fulgrim eventually. Wonder how he'd feel about Fulgrim now that Fulgrim apparently regained control of himself.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Corax

Correction, Corax hated his guts to the point he used the troops who had served alongside Horus to be used for a frontal assault. This is probably why Horus never tried to recruit him.

Redact your correction and reread what I wrote.

"Corax was like the second last found."


There is no suggestion he and Horus either did or didn't get on. Just that he was the penultimate primarch found.

IA: Raven Guard

Corax's Legion garnered such a fearsome reputation that Warmaster Horus requested their aid many times in his campaigns and it is thought that it was thanks to the Raven Guard's assistance that Horus's tally of victories was so high. The Raven Guard's records are curiously reticent concerning this period of history and Imperial Historians suspect that the taciturn Corax did not like the more gregarious Horus, finding him overly boastful and manipulative. It is rumoured that on one occasion the two almost came to blows and bloodshed was only averted when Corax removed his Legion from the Warmaster's command.

Lots of Primarchs liked Horus, whether Horus liked those Primarchs in return is a different matter

He seemed to like Fulgrim and Mortarion. I wonder if he figured most them would die on the fools errands he sent them on leaving him and the few he like as the last men standing.

 Exergy wrote:
Remember that Alpharius and Omegon were found by horus and not the emperor, the only primarchs not found by the emperor. After that Horus kept them a secret from the rest of the gang for a while while he played father/mentor.

He probably had some foundness for them and probably some pitty, as they are smaller, seem younger, and had no homeworld

*No known homeworld.

And Horus thought there was only one Alpharius. HH: Extermination mentions that even normal Alpha Legionnaires would double as Alpharius for dealing with Primarchs as well as other dignitaries.

According to HH: Extermination, Horus was the only Primarch who truly appreciated the Alpha Legion's style, however, both Horus and the High Lords of Terra were worried that they couldn't control them.

Magnus, Mortarian, Pertubo seem to be the only level headed Primarchs on Horus side.

The rest are broken. Magnus is a great character and very cool guy, very reasonable - sure he was loyal and wanted to be with his father, but in the end he accepted that it would never happen b/c chaos god had twisted his fate and manipulated the situation so that he could not be accepted and the Emperor does have a crumby temper...

Sure Magnus legion is broken, but the man is not and could be extremely powerful when he eventually decides to actively help horus

Mortarian is normal and his legion is effective until he got betrayed by typhus - even after this they were still a combat effectiv legion (we are still to see how normal mortarian is after the plague)

Pertubo is normal, a genius i agree & under appreciated and his legion is very effective

Horus was very good at using his prexisting relationship, the love, acceptance and sense of belonging he gave these Primarchs to win their consent to fight on his side. Being the master diplomat he then manipulated them using their own personal ambitions, biases, hatreds and wants to achieve his own goal of over throwing the emperor. He would have a tough time managing and getting them to behave after he wins - but who can say what would have happened once he won? I mean his second in command abbaddon 10k years later whenever he wants a crusade everyone bows down to him and obeys. Wouldnt it be so much more powerful an effect with Horus himself? Maybe the Chaos gods would have made him a daemon prince once he killed emperor and then he bargain with gods to stop his brothers from becomong daemon princes? Or maybe he just kill his brothers and tell their legions it was loyalist scum?

But we already know the answer dont we? It was written in legion that the cable revealed that once horus wins he would be overcome with guilt at his actions, seek to and successfully wipe out all of humanity and by doing so thus extinguish the chaos gods....

When the Heresy started none of the Primarch's besides Lorgar, Curze, and Angron came off as particularly deranged imo, so I doubt he cared.

I always figured he'd see his allied Primarchs as suckers. Sure they're smart, powerful and superhuman, but they're still suckers he can use and destroy once he's consolidated enough power of his own.

 sumi808 wrote:
Snip

Only one small issue with that in that Angron and Fulgrim were already Daemon Princes during the Heresy, beforre the Siege of Terra even began.

In his defense, Angron and Fulgrim ascending before the HH ended was a bit of a retcon.

It'd be nice to see how Horus felt about his DAEMON PRINCE brothers now, though. We've yet to see Horus' perspective on Angron and Fulgrim AFTER they've ascended to princedom, right?

 sumi808 wrote:

Horus was very good at using his prexisting relationship, the love, acceptance and sense of belonging he gave these Primarchs to win their consent to fight on his side. Being the master diplomat he then manipulated them using their own personal ambitions, biases, hatreds and wants to achieve his own goal of over throwing the emperor. He would have a tough time managing and getting them to behave after he wins - but who can say what would have happened once he won? I mean his second in command abbaddon 10k years later whenever he wants a crusade everyone bows down to him and obeys. Wouldnt it be so much more powerful an effect with Horus himself? Maybe the Chaos gods would have made him a daemon prince once he killed emperor and then he bargain with gods to stop his brothers from becomong daemon princes? Or maybe he just kill his brothers and tell their legions it was loyalist scum?

But we already know the answer dont we? It was written in legion that the cable revealed that once horus wins he would be overcome with guilt at his actions, seek to and successfully wipe out all of humanity and by doing so thus extinguish the chaos gods....

My theory is that the chaos gods also knew that Horus would be overcome with guilt and successfully wipe out humanity if he won (come on. This is Tzeentch. How could they not know if the Cabal did?)

Of course, if the Chaos Gods conveniently abandoned Horus right before the Emperor exploded him and his soul, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it...?