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Hi all,

Today, my brother raised an interesting rules query.

He had a deathwing command squad and a squad of normal terminators very close to each other.

His deathwing command squad had some kind of banner that gave every friendly model within 6" a bonus attack, including some guys in his other terminator squad.

I charged both units in the same turn with a mob of boyz each.

We played out the combat against his command squad first and I wiped them out - including the guy with the banner.

Now, my brother's query was this: obviously, these combats are supposed to be running simultaneously, and the only reason we resolve each one separately is for the sake of convenience. So did this mean that the terminators in his second squad still benefited from the bonus attack from his deathwing banner for that turn, even though I had already killed the guy?

They do not benefit, as Rules are resolved sequentially for more reasons then just convenience.

This situation could be used as a typical example as to why, as the Rule in question requires us to measure to a particular point to show that Models are within X inches of it. Any action which changes the location of said point will greatly change the outcome of such a test, which can only be addressed by accepting the new location or 'resetting' it back to the original location. Given that the instructions do not tell us we can do anything to assume the original location of the point is kept, we are forced to utilize it's new location in order to proceed. Should this new location be impossible to measure to, then it is impossible to prove that Models are within X so they can not benefit or be penalized from the Rule in question.

Therefore, the order which we resolve the Rules is very important.

Backing up Jinx, the attacks at the same Initiative step are simultaneous within one combat, but each combat needs to be completely resolved before moving onto the next - and the Controlling player (player who's turn it is) chooses the order (page 48).

Yes, they still benefit.... for that combat.

I would have personally thought they would have still benefitted as they are already engaged in the assault. That's HIWPI anyway.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I would have personally thought they would have still benefitted as they are already engaged in the assault. That's HIWPI anyway.

I believe the OP's example was:

Termy V Boys Combat 1
a little further away,
Command Termy V Boys Combat 2

As Quanar says perfectly: The player who's Turn it is (Orks in this Case) would decide whether he completes Combat 1 or Combat 2 first. As pointed out by Jinx above, he would be better off resolving Combat 2 first, and therefore denying the banner boost to Combat 1.

This would also be beneficial if Combat 2 had a Warlord with a power affecting 12".
I play Adepta Sororitas, and there is a Martyrdom special rule if you slay the Warlord: All Ld Tests are successful. In the example above you would have to then decide what you want affecting the other Unit, and ultimately decide which combat to resolve first...

 raiden wrote:
Yes, they still benefit.... for that combat.

It was two separate combats, so no, it wouldn't.

There are no rules, as far i know, that dictate which CC engagements you play out first. Therefore anyone using the "rules sequence" as a factor for determining the terminators would not benefit are wrong. I would play it as if the banner was still in range.

The player whos' turn it is Decides the order of combats.

You can only play it as "the banner was still in range" if you select Combat 1 before Combat 2 on my example above.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The player whos' turn it is Decides the order of combats.

You can only play it as "the banner was still in range" if you select Combat 1 before Combat 2 on my example above.

Rulebook citation please? I presume it is at the beginning of the Close Combat section but if not a cite would help.

CHOOSE A COMBAT
There may be several separate assaults being fought at the same time in different parts of the battlefield. If this is the case, the player whose turn it is chooses the order to resolve the combats, completing each combat before moving on to the next one, and so on until all combats are resolved.

 BlackTalos wrote:

CHOOSE A COMBAT
There may be several separate assaults being fought at the same time in different parts of the battlefield. If this is the case, the player whose turn it is chooses the order to resolve the combats, completing each combat before moving on to the next one, and so on until all combats are resolved.

This doesn't really say anywhere that the banner wouldn't effect the other unit more don't try and resolve every combat at once. I would still let a opponent gain the benefit as they are all engaged in CC in the same assault phase.

Yet when you tried to measure to the banner, you cannot do so

The phase is sequential, not simultaneous

 PastelAvenger wrote:
This doesn't really say anywhere that the banner wouldn't effect the other unit more don't try and resolve every combat at once. I would still let a opponent gain the benefit as they are all engaged in CC in the same assault phase.

Say you're in just the one combat, banner bearer gets killed at the I5 step, would you still give the bonus in the I4 step? How would you measure to the banner model? Pile-Ins will have already forced some movement, so "leave it in place" isn't really an option.

If you had two combats and resolved the combat with the banner first (with the banner surviving) and then used the unit's consolidation move to get more friendly models in the bubble, would you force the player to only count the range from where the banner was rather than where it is?

The instruction tells us to do combats one at a time, in an order chosen by the controlling player.

All battles are supposed to happen simultaneously though but we resolve them sequentially for ease.

Does anyone have the exact wording of the Deathwing Banner? if it doesn't say at the start of the assault phase then I suppose I am wrong.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
All battles are supposed to happen simultaneously though but we resolve them sequentially for ease.

That's just not true at all. If I lose my Synapse in one combat, my hormagaunts are going to run away if they lose their combat - they're not still Fearless.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
Does anyone have the exact wording of the Deathwing Banner?

"All friendly models with the Inner Circle special rule within 6" of the model bearing this banner gain +1 attack."

If that's the wording then no is a stronger case.

Deuce11 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The player whos' turn it is Decides the order of combats.

You can only play it as "the banner was still in range" if you select Combat 1 before Combat 2 on my example above.

Rulebook citation please? I presume it is at the beginning of the Close Combat section but if not a cite would help.

BlackTalos wrote:

CHOOSE A COMBAT
There may be several separate assaults being fought at the same time in different parts of the battlefield. If this is the case, the player whose turn it is chooses the order to resolve the combats, completing each combat before moving on to the next one, and so on until all combats are resolved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet when you tried to measure to the banner, you cannot do so

The phase is sequential, not simultaneous

I have changed my position based on the above (assuming it is accurate as I have not checked the rule book myself at this time)