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Just starting out with imperial knights and I didn't notice a consolidated tactica the way most other armies have at the moment. Especially with the slew of forge world models adding variety and some tactical flexability.
So I thought I would start with a unit by unit break down looking at use as an ally and what and how it should be used in an all knight army.
Paladin
Spoiler:
The knight paladin strikes me as the most tactically flexible of the knights. Great range with the two shot battle cannon and multi unit charge with the pair of heavy stubbers. I would consider this he backbone of most knight armies.
As a warlord : the paladin doesn't gain all that much from the increase in ballistic skill and weapon skill. All the knights improve with the benefit to your ion shield, so I believe that is not an static reason to give it to him. Although with the range of the battle cannon it would improve his survivability in a corner deployment and hugging a table edge.
As an ally: While the paladin I believe should form the basis of a knight army. I believe it actually lacks a little something as an ally. It's cannon can not one shot a tank, so it is limited in its anti tank roll to close combat (D dominates there). It works as a fantastic bullet magnet, although any knight will fill that roll. Most armies have a better, cheaper option at anti-horde. While being able to kill a boatload of marine equivalents in one salvo is neat. How often do marine players bunch twenty guys together? Killing that five man squad is likely a little over doing it.
Tactical use:
Paladins have the most flexibility as I said earlier. Deployed in a corner, they can walk the board edge and protect a side for free. Their great range makes them a threat beyond mid board, and that huge 12" move allows them to threaten a good portion of the field with a charge. Be aware of outflanked. Although deep strikers have to take a board edge into account when the make their arrival. Working as part of a spear head in the center they are as good as any other knight at blocking fire, and can threaten the entire board, but by themselves are simply asking to be flanked.
Knight errant
Spoiler:
The knight errant is the anti heavy tanks knight. Just as capable as any of the other knights at gutting tanks and infantry in close combat he brings a large blast melta gun that can strike from three feet away. Currently this is the only knight with the ability to truly one shot a tank. Get within 18" and you can flambé a number of tanks with that single shot. Additional heavy stubbers allow the same charge options as most of the other knights. Facing that necron av 13 spam? This is your guy.
As warlord: Once more the blast weapon mitigates the increase to ballistic skill that making this knight the warlord grants you. Protecting your anti-tank knight could be a priority, but the increased priority target that he becomes as your warlord mitigates that as a positive.
As an ally: onto the normal codex, this is the ally. Able to smoke that terminator squad as easily as that marine or guard squad, this lends a massive anti-tank and anti-elite edge to armies that have trouble finding them. (Tyranids would love a long range melta. Might even be worth the come the apocalypse ally.) heavy tanks, light tanks, anything but a flee really. At 370 points your also likely to have room for this in most tournament games.
Tactical use:
This would be part of a spear tip thrust right down the center of your enemies mass. Make sure it is supported well to avoid flanking issues. Either a couple of other knights working along side. Or in an ally situation bikers and transports to keep up. In a knight army, pairing a castigator and a paladin to hammer everything in front of you.
Be ready to lose the errant as melta often tends to draw fire.
Knight lancer
Spoiler:
The anti monstrous creature and anti knight guy. This knight is built to kill those models that are best for fighting knights. (Not including flyers) the lancer also has the bonus shield in close combat. Flank speed gives you a good reason to push up one side or the other. Getting right in your enemies face. He suffers from the same weakness to flanking attacks.
As a warlord:
The lancer is probably my favorite option for warlord. Increased ballistic field directly improves his shooting, helping you make the most of the ap2 shots that soften up your target. Like others the increased shield save is great, being that you are pushing to the other side of the board quickly.
As an ally:
He lancer can help armies that have an especial issue against monstrous creatures or knights. Hitting at I 5 lets this beast hit before most opponents. Much like the errant expect that the lancer will die as it will out pace most of the army and attract a boatload of fire from turn one on.
General tactics:
As part of a knight force the lancer is flexible. He can move up the side of a table quickly and turn your enemies flank. His six shots can winnow down an elite unit, or pop a light transport before charging the contents. Remember to be well close to the transport as troops will be disembarking as far away as possible. Alternatively the lancer can drive up the center with a trio of knights acting as their bodyguard and deterring attacks from drop models or monstrous creatures.
Knight castigator:
Spoiler:
The castigator is seen as both the anti air and the anti-horde knight. 8 twin linked strength 7 shots has a chance to make an impact in the air. Although not so much as to convince me to leave flyer support at home. While getting it stuck into combat can be good, keeping it back to knock out a rhino or other light transport so the rest of your army can decimate the contents for the first turn or two works well.
As a warlord:
While a ballistic skill increase does generally assist this. Already having twin linked tends to lead me away from using this model as my warlord. (Tried it the other day and he ended up to far out on his own.
As an ally:
The castigator is very efficient at popping mid level vehicles. Lack of a secondary weapon to shoot and then charge hinders it flexibility. Once again a knight that is excellent at killing hordes, this time in close combat. Generally you can find allies or units in your own codex that can achieve this goal.
General tactics:
While it is enemy dependent, I think holding a castigator back for a turn or two will work in its favor. Use his time to knock out enemy transports and medium tanks. Alternately point it at the largest blob of the enemy and go for it. Guard and irk blobs in particular are a good target for this knight. Monstrous creatures can also be handled pretty easily, although do your best to stay away from other knights or strong walkers.
Knight magaera
Spoiler:
He knight magaera is currently the most durable of the knights, although it has given up a lot of offense to do so. From the paladin you have given up one strength and one blast to gain shred and rending. I would prefer an errant for that damage target. The plasma fissile secondary weapon being ap3 is nice as you will be causing more damage to that secondary target, but with fewer attacks then the other forge world knights. Really the only redeeming quality for the points is the super ion shield. -1 str to all attacks, -2 to everyone else. Just about the equivalent to having an av 14 knight.
As a warlord:
While the skill increase has a minimal effect with the blasts the improved ion shield and the natural super nature of its ion shield will quickly make this the hardest knight to kill. If kill the warlord is a secondary heavily weighted at a tournament or local gaming group, that could make it worth it. Otherwise I would only use it in higher point games where I didn't want to take the same knight twice.
As an ally:
The whole point of taking a knight as an ally is to fill out a weakness in the army. Perhaps as a massive bullet soaker. Walk the knight up the middle straight towards an enemies biggest threat. If it makes it into close combat, great. If not it soaked up a couple of turns of fire.
General tactics:
Unless you are using it to distract an enemy, or as an outside to your wedge up the center. Generally I think I would place the knight in a corner or with good line of sight blocking terrain. Sit there and hope to take out enough models to earn back it's points.
Knight acheron
Spoiler:
The knight Acheron. With the first knight apoc weapon. For table play it is yet to be seen if tournaments will slap it with the ban hammer. Without play testing it myself I would say it is just a middling knight. The sixteen inch helstorm template seems imposing when you throw it down, but even the lancer can out range the Acheron. You can hit more with the Acheron and if you are hiding in a fortification or open topped transport your going to be cooked in short order when it gets in range.
As a warlord:
By the very nature of the flamed weapon, the Acheron has to move right up into an enemies back field. Generally looking for targets it won't be sitting on a board edge. I would worry about flanking as you are hunting a grouping of targets that makes it worth his while. Skill increase has no effect on the template.
As an ally:
Another good bullet magnet that has to move towards your enemy. Make sure you pop the transports for him as he moves up. I could see this guy filling a pretty good need for armies. He can take out hordes in a different way then most armies. The ability to charge secondary targets, or anyone that is under that template.
General tactics:
Acheron is perfect as one of the supporters for a trio of knights walking forward. A lancer popping a vehicle, an errant takes out a vehicle and then Acheron cooks all the contents. If you manage to get the outflanking warlord trait the Acheron could work well with that. Coming in 12" from an edge and taking out a backfield. End up on the wrong side though and you lose out on over 400 points of your army for an additional two turns likely.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/29 23:05:13
I would say that the Errant is actually the generalist, as it has the best balance of roles in that its shorter ranged anti-vehicle weapon works well with its CC abilities, and the single Stubber lets it chose between targets to charge.
The Paladin, on the other hand, is more focused on multi-target, long range attacks, which is in conflict with its CC role. 2 Stubbers increases its potential charge targets, which again seems like wasted overachieving when you drop pie plates 6-feet away.
The Lancer is very much that anti-Superheavy option, as it can only charge what it shot with its only range attack. Still a great option for getting it stuck in.
The Castigator is very much the anti-horde/anti-light vehicle platform, doing the Paladin's job just a little better, but with the same flaw the Lancer has via the lack of secondary weapon(s).
The new Acheron is definitely an anti-infantry Knight, and seems to be geared for bunker busting. Not too bad, and with a secondary weapon, it has the flexibility of choice the Lancer and Castigator lack.
The Magaera is ... well ... not that good at Knightly things. It's just not as good as a Paladin, and is frankly outclassed by the Acheron in about the only role the Magaera might do well. You could technically "Tank" with the Magaera's Flare Shield, if you opponent is a noob and lets you Tank shots rather than flaying the Magaera from the facing not covered by the Flare Shield. The one great thing about the Magaera is its ability to take upgrades, a feature lacking in the other Knight-patterns.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
I definitely agree that the Errant is probably the best ally for the reasons stated already. It takes that burden over a great deal. Another good thing about units that require you to get close to your enemy, is it prevents bad habits from forming. With the 72" Battle Cannon, the temptation to let the Knight sit in the back and blast stuff is too great especially with 2 shots that you get with it. If that thing explodes in your field, the loss will be on you while the Errant or another of the shorter range Knights usually explode where it will be to your opponents expense and not your own.
My little two cents but this is good tactics. I feel like people take the Paladin too much and don't get the most out of their Knight. The D CC weapon is freaking amazing and them stomping is just downright fun.
All right, getting a little more general now. I'm thinking about weakness' to the knight armies. The big three in my mind is anti-air, being outflanked and minimal number of units in the army. Short range super weapons would be a fourth. (e.g. close combat weapons like melta bombs and thunder hammers, or melta and hay wire weapons at range.)
Anti-air:
Spoiler:
Being entirely blast oriented in the codex save for stubbers. (Great against eldar flyers?) Facing a flying army or any flyers for that matter is a knights nightmare. The Lancer and more so the Castigator make some step in the right direction to fixing this, but a lack of anti air options makes this the largest negative in our army. I won't be surprised if forgeworld comes out with an AA option for the Knights, but GW wants this anyway because it forces us to ally. I have to buy two armies to play the one? What? Well that is the real solution, unless you are going to field all castigators, your going to need to ally in some AA help.
Imperial guard with vendettas and a whole host of forgeworld flyers available, as well as the potent hydra flakk tank, might be the best points wise investment. Space marines can bring some heavy hitters with the storm talon and either storm raven, or my favorite, the storm eagle. If you want to run eldar, the serpent and crimson hunter can help you greatly. Although eldar are likely the most expensive option.We will get into allies more later.
Outflanked
Spoiler:
Not the special rule, although that is a contributing factor. Drop pods, outflankers, bikers, jump troops, deep strikers, and corners deployment. Aside from the ability to not be shot, this is a reason flyers are so powerful. A knight is not much more to kill then a wave serpent once you create multiple facing threats. As I quickly discovered in my last game, lascannons from one corner, counterpointed by melta guns from the other side will take out a knight very quickly. Table edges and LOS blocking terrainncan mitigate this. If there is none available create additional cover with tanks, monstrous creatures, or even a flyer. Grouping knights together either for the formation, or to provide each other with cover is a great way to deploy your units.
Minimal units available:
Spoiler:
By the very nature of knight armies you will have few units. If your like me and bring flyers to kill flyers you will have even fewer in your allied slot. This means you have to be at least a little conservative about commuting your models, and very aware of how you and your opponent place objectives. Do your best to place your objectives somewhat close together and near the center of the board or wherever your primary thrust will be. I prefer to wait a turn before truly pushing forward as my long range weapons can take out a couple of enemy units, with minimal reprisal, then surge forward with flyer support helping clear the way. This often cedes the initiative to my opponent, but I can't assume I will be able to wipe my opponent off the table.
Close range super weapons:
Spoiler:
Many of the most powerful weapons that knights have to worry about are short range. Melta weapons and most haywire weapons are targeting you from 12" or so. If you are using the close combat power of the knights, you have to get within 12" for the charge. This reinforces the point that your knights are not invincible. When flanked by multiple melta weapons, it is pretty quick to suffer 6 hull points of damage. Be very aware of the surroundings of each knight. Think about that chimera with melta vets that can move six, dismount and have a very effective 18" range. Close combat the knight can dominate elite units, but blobs with special characters hiding inside will have a chance to hit you with thunder hammers and melta bombs. Try to use what is usually a vastly better maneuverability to avoid Lysander types, or even masses of chaos marine troops with melta bomb sergeants.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 16:09:31
I don't understand how people can say that an errant is better than a paladin.
The paladin is not a long range shooting platform, and is not at odds over its battlefield role.
Whilst it has the capability to fire at long range, they should play almost identically to an errant in terms of positioning.
One advantage it has over the errant is that when it gets close its own gun is not a serious threat to itself.
The Paladin is better vs anything with a 3+ or worse save. Not only is it better, it is more than 2 times more efficient in the shooting phase against such targets.
When said targets make up 90% of the game's infantry/cavalry/bikes/MCs, I don't see how the errant can be rated as a better all rounder.
Many people say that the errant is good because it can one shot vehicles. Have you tried this in a real game? What you have is a 350 point meltagun. Sure it has 1 better strength and a better range, however it is still only 1 shot. And does not ignore cover saves. To put this in perspective: if shooting at a rhino, within melta range, then the errant has only a 33% chance to destroy it. If it has deployed smoke, or found some ruins as cover, this reduces further to 22% and 16.5% respectively.
If you want to kill light vehicles, then use a castigator. If you want to kill Heavy vehicles, you are better off hitting it with Str D attacks.
The only areas where an errant has value over a paladin is when dealing with some kind of blob with a tough 2+ special character at the front (think chaos spawn lead by a chaos lord on a bike), or against non-TH/SS terminators (paladin is better vs TH/SS termies).
With regards to the castigator, he is not just anti hordes (though he certainly does this very well). He is anti-absolutely everything outside of superheavies. As tempest attack and deflagate work together, he can generate a great number of wounds off even a relatively small number of models in base contact with him. With only 4 models in base contact for example, you are still looking at generating 6-7 wounds against non invulnerable save targets.
As most non-blob squads usually have 10 men or less, this is more than sufficient to take them down in 1 or 2 turns of combat.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I don't understand how people can say that an errant is better than a paladin.
The paladin is not a long range shooting platform, and is not at odds over its battlefield role.
Whilst it has the capability to fire at long range, they should play almost identically to an errant in terms of positioning.
One advantage it has over the errant is that when it gets close its own gun is not a serious threat to itself.
The Paladin is better vs anything with a 3+ or worse save. Not only is it better, it is more than 2 times more efficient in the shooting phase against such targets.
When said targets make up 90% of the game's infantry/cavalry/bikes/MCs, I don't see how the errant can be rated as a better all rounder.
Many people say that the errant is good because it can one shot vehicles. Have you tried this in a real game? What you have is a 350 point meltagun. Sure it has 1 better strength and a better range, however it is still only 1 shot. And does not ignore cover saves. To put this in perspective: if shooting at a rhino, within melta range, then the errant has only a 33% chance to destroy it. If it has deployed smoke, or found some ruins as cover, this reduces further to 22% and 16.5% respectively.
If you want to kill light vehicles, then use a castigator. If you want to kill Heavy vehicles, you are better off hitting it with Str D attacks.
The only areas where an errant has value over a paladin is when dealing with some kind of blob with a tough 2+ special character at the front (think chaos spawn lead by a chaos lord on a bike), or against non-TH/SS terminators (paladin is better vs TH/SS termies).
With regards to the castigator, he is not just anti hordes (though he certainly does this very well). He is anti-absolutely everything outside of superheavies. As tempest attack and deflagate work together, he can generate a great number of wounds off even a relatively small number of models in base contact with him. With only 4 models in base contact for example, you are still looking at generating 6-7 wounds against non invulnerable save targets.
As most non-blob squads usually have 10 men or less, this is more than sufficient to take them down in 1 or 2 turns of combat.
I still think the Errant is, as said before, the best for a single Knight ally especially in armies lacking in anti-armor which is why a lot of armies end up taking a Knight in the first place. A Paladin still can't deal with AV14 as well or 2+ Armor enemies while the Errant can take care of all of these. Given the positioning of where your Knight should be when firing at a vehicle, the Errant already should be in Melta range. The Paladin has lot more difficulty with heavily armored vehicles unlike the Errant that deals pretty well with everything. Being AP3 against Infantry, there might not even been a reason for that second shot anyway and you need that second shot to do anything to vehicles really because the most you are going to get is an Immobilize.
I have fielded both. My friend has a Paladin and I have an Errant so I used both as an ally in several games to figure out whether it was worth buying a second one to bring a Paladin every once in a while but the Errant was better overall being able to eliminate more despite having only one shot with the Thermal Cannon. This is my experience though so results may vary but it has more than solidified my choice of bringing an Errant as my allied Imperial Knight.
Now in an actual full on detachment of Imperial Knights, I am inclined to agree and without taking into account Forge World, but I would run 2 Paladins and an Errant as my minimal although considering Forge World, a removal of one of the Paladins to have a Castigator go in there makes a pretty heft triple threat.
Now that we've looked at the weakness' of he army. It seems the best way to address those is with allies. This post will be all about the battle brother guys. The ones most likely to be used.
Imperial guard:
Spoiler:
Fluff and efficiency wise the imperial guard just fits well with knights. Trouble with ant-air? Ad a couple of flyers and hydras. Want a bunch of objective secured? Take a platoon and tank them up in chimeras. Want to replace a a paladin with an equally survivable unit. How about a pair of leman Russ battle tanks. All for an affordable point value. Were I building an ally force I would focus on a cheap hq, melta vets in a vendetta, an aegis defense line with a gun, maybe a hydra or another troop squad with heavy weapons perhaps behind the aegis. (IG is not particularly my bag and I'm sure someone can come up with a better list.
Sisters of battle:
Spoiler:
I could see a really fun list with sisters helping out knights. Fluff and storyline that you could create would look pretty cool. The dominions and razorbacks with all of their melta would work well for trashing tanks. The exorcist as well. I think the sisters as an ally are pretty limited as they can't effect AA. I think a knight castigator makes a better ally to sisters then sisters make allies to knights. (Competitively speaking.)
Grey knights:
Spoiler:
By knights, meet little knights. I feel like grey knights could be the best option as an ally for knights. Great anti air options. Terminators as troops provide fantastic durable troops. Ever model being psychic can give supremely powerful psychics to your knights. You won't be expanding the number of units you have, but they will all be able to effect the game. A librarian for psychic power, storm eagle/raven with some terminators inside, a dread knight, you should still have some points to spare for tweaking.
Blood angels
Spoiler:
Once they get a new codex, I'm sure blood angels will be great as an ally. At the moment they can bring the same storm raven and a couple of marines. Perhaps some of the drop in melta help. I think most of the blood angel help will have to wait for new codex.
Dark angels
Spoiler:
Terminators and bikers. Expensive, but good troops. Flyers are worse then normal marine flyers this is another army that should ally a knight more then knights should ally with.
Space wolves
Spoiler:
The new space wolves codex is well set up to help out a knight army as well. The new space wolf flyers can help you in the air. Long fangs are always great, and a drop pod list could concentrate on one half of an army while the knights went the other way. The in your face pressure would cause so much disruption flyers would have minimal impact.
Space marines:
Spoiler:
Space marines are my personal favorite as allies. I like the iron hands chapter tactics as my two flyers can heal themselves. A forge father on a bike rides in a storm eagle, or on the ground to provide healing to the knights where I can. A squad of scouts with a flakk missile launcher gives me even more AA and a hardcore troop camper with a potential 2+ cover save. Mortis dreadnoughts could be another powerful tool to ad. Other chapter tactics will fit personal stones of play. Centurions with grav-weapons. Drop pod melta armies. Outflanking biker squads. I believe space marines will allow a player to customize their ally to fit their playing style best, and that is often more important then the internet agreed "strongest" units.
Inquisition:
Spoiler:
Fluff wise this could be a good ally, although strategically they don't bring all that mug to the table. Psychic powers, servo skulls, and some space monkeys. Could be a good way to even out your points if you are really trying to maximize the number of knights in the army.at 2000 points you could fit five knights in and burn your last 200 points or so on inquisition.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/30 19:36:32
Yeah but can't Space Marines also be a really good option for Imperial Knights? They have the Stormtalon as well as more survivable units for a little more expense. You might not get as much as you do with IG but you get more survivability.
And what about those of us who take a Knight to help benefit out own forces. I took my Knight because I needed anti-armor in my Grey Knights list and the Knight has down well. Facing down 2 fully kitted Dreadknights with an Imperial Knight kicker provides many ways to make your opponent sweat. Anti-air is difficult still but I can and do fit in some SM allies to get that into my list. Unless limited by a tournament, it is unliminted detachments.
Definitely still working on the allies. Just braking it down to manageable chunks. I agree that grey knights are fantastic and may be the best. I personally love space marines wih a storm talon and a storm eagle. With the iron hands chapter tactics. Fits my style and he storyline behind my models.
Those other allies. Focusing on the non-come the apocalypse options.
Eldar:
Spoiler:
I do believ
E eldar are now he only allies of convenience left for the imperium. For knights that is a boon as he eldar can really help the knights albeit a little indirectly. Eldar flyers are powerful and relatively cheap. I prefer the nightwing myself as it is a touch more survivable then the crimson hunter. Although the hunter brings a little harder punch with it. Trollautarch can be just fun to frustrate your opponent with, and potentially soak up a lot of bullets. Wraithknight make a fantastic match with the imperial knights, although the sun cannon version is not cheap. Wave serpents are, well, wave serpents. I think necron night scythes are about the only better transport in the game for the price. Nearly every army slot has a unit that can help the imperial knights. Say a trolltarch, rangers, nightwing, and some war walkers.
On to the desperate allies.
Dark eldar
Spoiler:
I haven't seen the new codex yet, but the two dark eldar fliers were amazing in the previous codex. Strength 9 and 10 lances on fliers can take care of enemy fliers easy, as well as tanks. The poison weapons he general troops carry are exactly what is needed for those durable monstrous creature lists. I can't really think of any fluff reason that thy would help each other. Maybe the knights are controlled by dark eldar? That could open up some really neat modeling options.
Tau
Spoiler:
While the tau fliers themselves are somewhat underwhelming. Just about every other unit in the army seems to be capable of taking sky fire. Take a farsighted group in particular and use crysis suits as troops, throw in a riptide and a sky ray you have some really good support for knights. Just remember to set them up in their own corner.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 21:21:13
ductvader wrote: Finding it funny that the GK players are all over the Knight Thread.
The Errant is just what our book needs...and looks awesome between two Dreadknights.
Due to the fall of flier based armies, its become even more powerful lately.
I think that is because it adds two things that GK lack without taking a Land Raider, anti-armor and an armor unit. Slightly less defensive than a Land Raider but it has more Hull Points where it lacks armor and can only be defeated when those hull points are gone plus it has a 4++. It fits perfectly tactically and aesthetically.
Also, GK players like to abuse the word Knight a lot...as an Imperial Fist player, I like to abuse the word Imperial as well.
Those despicable come the apocalypse armies. Come the apocalypse armies can work fairly well due to the low model count of the imperial knights. Turning to chaos a trio of chaos knights? I think limiting your knights to a trio in this case is important, then send them along one side of a board. Your opponent is now hemmed in to one side of the board to avoid the knights.
Daemons:
Spoiler:
Knights would love to work with an army that is almost entirely deep striking. The knights will not be knocked out of the fight in that firs turn. You can't deep strike enough melta weaponry to take them all out. By the same token a summoning army with flying monstrous creatures could do very well, controlling one side of the board and creating a catch 22 for your opponent. Kill the giant walkers, or take out the self replicating horde?
Chaos
Spoiler:
I feel like chaos will be a tougher ally and I am not sure why. I don't think most enemies will be suitably intimidated by by 600 points of chaos. Heldrakes are nice, but don't particularly give you air superiority. They can take storm eagles, but the lack of power of the machine spirit means you have cross purpose weapons. Perhaps a fast moving biker, mauler fiend based force could get to the enemy quickly, but you haven't solved the AA issue.
Necrons:
Spoiler:
What a powerful combo this could be. Only way you could get three flyers independent flyers I believe. One of he better AA option flyers at that. Annihilation barge a pair of night scythes with troops and a cheap lord. Possibly with MSS if you can swing it. I always hated mind shackle scarabs. I know here is someone out here who has made a great looking necron Titan. I could see a great similar opportunity with a knight or two.
Orcs:
Spoiler:
Orcs. Hmm. I don't know the Orc codex all that well, but I feel like this would be more difficult to keep your knights away from. Orcs seem to survive based on their numbers more then anything. Lootas are pretty good for anti air I suppose, but I don't see how well it will all fit. He other way around. Put a single knight in an Orc army and I can see all kinds of positives even with having to stay 6" away.
Tyranids:
Spoiler:
Tyranids could actually be a great ally for knights. The hive tyrant is one of the best gun boats in the air. Troops are exceptionally cheap so you could focus on a mawloc to deep strike and give your opponent something to worry about right when the knights are reaching the line. My tyranid army is largely a drop army. So. I think of the surprise guys. Tyrannofex can provide a massive bullet magnet that will distract some of the heavy firepower from the knights. You will likely still have a lack of units in numbers, but being a come the apocalypse army that can be a good thing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/30 23:35:53
Honestly, taking a Storm Raven with Terminators inside for GK would be redundant when the Terminators could Deep Strike themselves on the Board and as long as you are taking the Nemesis Strike Force detachment, the Terminators can be available from Turn 1. No, if needing to take any kind of infantry in a Stormraven, put Purifiers in it to give them Deep Striking power and it gives you a solid anti-infantry option amid all this anti-armor.
This has given me an idea for a nice list involving my GK and my Imperial Knight that would see my Stormraven return to battle after being unused for so long.
Nice, I like that idea. Would you have to take a minimal squad of grey knight troops to fit in the purifiers when it's a knight based force? Continuing with the assumption of about 600 points for an ally.
seapheonix wrote: Nice, I like that idea. Would you have to take a minimal squad of grey knight troops to fit in the purifiers when it's a knight based force? Continuing with the assumption of about 600 points for an ally.
Yes you would, either a Terminator squad or GKSS. GKSS would be the less effective option. 600 points is highly limiting to a GK force since we have expensive units compared to other codices. With a 600 point limitation, you would only be able to fit in an HQ, 5 man troop choice and the Stormraven but if you use the left over points because you are taking a Paladin or an Errant (I would always take an Errant in a GK list), you can fit the squad of Purifiers to go on the Stormraven. But if you weren't going to do that, the standard GK ally that everyone has been taking is Librarian, 5 Terminators and a Dreadknight.
ah, I have been working under the assumption as a knight primary force with around 1150 points in knights, then 600 points or so of allies. 1750 being a number close to what most tournaments and my area play at.
Errant just seems more scary. I'm less worried about a couple of battle cannons compared to a super melta blast.
The ability to destroy multiple vehicles with a single shot seems very potent. Especially in light of how easy it seems to be for vehicles to get IWND these days. Gotta go for the one shot kill.
seapheonix wrote: ah, I have been working under the assumption as a knight primary force with around 1150 points in knights, then 600 points or so of allies. 1750 being a number close to what most tournaments and my area play at.
Ah, I was working under just taking one Knight as an ally. For that, honestly, I would take a SM if you are looking for anti-air capability. Take a Librarian with 5 man Tactical squad in a Drop Pod with a 5 man Sniper Scouts to infiltrate. Then take a Stormraven with Lascannon and Multi-melta with a Stormtalon with Skyhammer escorting the Stormraven as your air options. If you want the whole Iron Hands thing, make it a 10 man Tactical in a Drop Pod and take a Master of the Forge and stick him in the Stormraven so that he can repair the Stormraven should it take any hits and also have a mobile repair guy for your Knights.
That is very close to the allies I've been trying.
My list in the current prep for my second game is:
Lancer: warlord
errant
paladin
allies:
Storm eagle (las cannons, multimelta)
storm talon (sky hammer)
Forge father (bike and teeth of terra)
Scouts (camo cloaks and a flakk missile launcher)
There is an 1850 point tourney coming up in January, and in a magical world where I can get everything together (not likely) I would adapt the allies like so:
Storm eagle: the same
Storm talon: the same
Forge father: naked
Scouts: camo cloaks
Add a mortis contemptor with kheres assault cannons
So. I end up with a lot of free time mentally at work. Pulling on wrenches, waiting for a system to be locked out. I fill a lot of that time with thought experiments in how my army works against others. This last weekend I had a game annex against a necron army, complete with a gauss pylon. So I thought I would work throughout my thoughts with you guys.
First off, I know that plans never survive contact with the enemy. Where this process really benefits me is in fitting out target priority and order of operation for when I'm trying to play in the time crunch environment of a tournament.
Secondly. I have to assume the deployment and strategy of my opponent. Who knows if the would do something completely different, this nullifying my grand design. However I honk it is good to have a preconception in your mind for a variety of army lists as in that tournament, chances are you only have five minutes to really figure out your enemies army from his army list. Either way this is just fun.
So the preamble: he necron list I'm facing. Seems to be based mostly around the pylon, and how to use t as a super murder machine.
Army vaguely is:
Overlord, res orbs, MSS, probably 2+ save and an invul.
2x lords w/ res orbs and possibly other goodies.
Looking at that my first thought is, like me there are very few targets, and very few weapons shooting at range. So attempting to Devine how this army would be used. Start with the pylon that is obviously the center of the army. (I feel like lords of war are always the basis of an army if they are there. Most lords of war will not be grow away units not central to an enemies plan.) 120" range on the pylon suggests he could throw that thing in a corner and shoot a thing at everything he wants. Two things likely prevent this. The tournaments I have gone to, and my gaming group in general try really hard to place a sizable line of sight blocking piece of terrain in the center of the board. The second thing that would dissuade this deployment is the pylons invulnerable save bubble. A 5++ save for any necrons in 12". If you deploy hard up in he corner you lose half of that bubble and if you still want to use it, your forces are bunched into a tiny little space that will suit my blasts just fine. So instead I would expect deployment approximately 6" from his board edge and 12-18" from a board edge. His would give a better view of my deployment zone and most of the mid table. In hammer and anvil would probably be 12" from his board edge.
Once again looking at that super bubble, that is where the bulk of the units will be deployed. If troops are kept in reserve to thin out model concentration, then they are coming I. Randomly over the next few turns and are of lesser importance to the early game. What I would expect to be out however are the two triarch stalkers, deployed 8" or so from each other so a single blast won't hit them both.
Now for how I would fight that:
Spoiler:
Necrons are a pretty tough match up for anyone that has an av heavy army. Knights in particular the amount of high rate of fire gauss weaponry can glance a knight to death before you know it. Range is going to be my number one aid. The triarch stalkers and the pylon are his only three weapons that can reach me. This may be the number one reason I am thinking about switching from a lancer to a castigator. However I will continue to think brought wih the lancer. My primary goal will be to take out my opponents support units for the first turn or two. Until the gauss has been trashed, the chance of he pylon hitting anything on the ground is minimal as the D profile has sky fire.
If I were deploying first, I would deploy centrally, not quite to my line, behind the line of sight blocker, with perhaps the paladin just out from a corner. The plan would be to take the first turn to then shuffle my deployment so that the central terrain was between the pylon and I. First turn shooting would concentrate on hitting the triarch stalkers. Melta cannon first hoping to pop one quantum shield. Followed by a scout missile and ten the battle cannons. Lancer would stay back turn perhaps making a long loop around the central terrain and slightly closer to the necrons. Staying ou of range of the second triarch which likely survives would be a primary goal. Damocles would drop the space barrage in hopes of killing that second triarch. Paladin would try to target any visible troops, with blasts overlapping a triarch stalker hopefully. Any damage done to the pylon would be accidental, but appreciated.
Turn two, assuming the damacles is still alive(it should be out of range, and the pylon would be a wasted shot.) I will lower the reserve roll to keep the flyers out. If they come in any way I will place them as close to out of sight as possible, I can't assume that will happen though. Place the storm talon to ad to the storm eagles out of sight. I am hoping that between cover saves and such, the flyer will survive, though it likely will not. Str D anti-air? What? This is the turn that I will move forwards though, the errant and the lance will press to be closer to the pylon, get into 18" for the errant, close to the same for the lancer. Most of his troops should either still be in reserve, or dead from various blasts, and stubbers. Storm talon and scouts will pot shot at any left overs. Forge father will go heal an injured knight and provide a tasty secondary target.
Necrons come in and likely take out the flyer. If they don't it would be able to kill them. Necron player might be distracted though that the knights are within charge rage of the pylon. One or two reserve troops might come in, but likely won't be able to take out two knights.
Really going out there for turn three: at this point a surviving knight moves to charge the pylon. Scouts and the paladin shoot at any ground troops while forge father and possibly storm talon shoot in the air. Chances are as the game goes on there. He necron player would have a pair flyer left. While one knight, a couple scouts, and the damacles would all still be kicking around.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/10/07 19:46:19
Hey that was pretty informative. We don't see multiple Knights here, though there actually was three at the toruney I last attended. So thanks for posting this stuff.
I personally dislike Forge World and feel like the Imperial Knights really don't belong in 40K but they are here and it appears, not going away soon. So it's good to know how their users like to use them in case i have to deal with them.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Personally I prefer 2 paladins and an errant making up the adamantine lance formation.
My reasoning is that a pure knight list does not put out a lot of firepower for its points, so why voluntarily reduce it further by taking more knights with less firepower vs most models.
Whilst the errant does pose a great threat to vehicles, it is still just a single meltagun damage roll, which is still effected by cover or invuln saves, which means that most of the time it will not be destroying any more vehicles than the paladin. I would include one though, as it does at least pose some threat to vehicles at range and it is useful for dealing with blobs lead by a 2+ save character.
Big Blind Bill wrote: Personally I prefer 2 paladins and an errant making up the adamantine lance formation.
My reasoning is that a pure knight list does not put out a lot of firepower for its points, so why voluntarily reduce it further by taking more knights with less firepower vs most models.
Whilst the errant does pose a great threat to vehicles, it is still just a single meltagun damage roll, which is still effected by cover or invuln saves, which means that most of the time it will not be destroying any more vehicles than the paladin. I would include one though, as it does at least pose some threat to vehicles at range and it is useful for dealing with blobs lead by a 2+ save character.
Aren't all three required to be the same model if using the Adamantine Lance formation; Ie, all Errants or all Paladins?
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
