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I've been looking to start Fantasy for a while now but I'm undecided as to which army to play. I have 3 armies in mind but because i'm very picky I can't decide on which one.
I'd like an army which is decent at all phases but cheap enough money wise. Low enough model count is a plus because I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to painting and I already have other models on the bench atm.
I don't want a horde army, since I already own an Ork and Guard army and I don't want to paint another couple of hundred minis.

Ogre Kingdoms: Good fluff, low model count, nice models and models seem cheap, don't know if the playstyle is right for me though.

Empire: I like the look and feel but they seem to like large blocks of infantry which is a downside.

Lizardmen: Once again, fantastic models (Dinosaurs!), good magic and infantry but don't have as low a model count as Ogres.

My main opponent will be Daemons.
Which one is right for me?

From what you've said ogres are the best. They cause fear have awesome impact hits. They are fun to play against also

Hmmmm....out of those 3 options and what you do and do not want in an army I would pick.....

....Skaven!! Haha jk

I think empire would be a good fit, good in all phases and has multiple play styles, builds etc.

Ogres are the lowest model count army so I wouldn't compare the other stuff to then. Lizardmen would be the middle of the road and are fairly average model count wise.
Empire can be played very horde like but they can also be played with lots of cavalry etc. You don't have to take a block of 70 spearmen if you don't want to lol

 Ustrello wrote:
From what you've said ogres are the best. They cause fear have awesome impact hits. They are fun to play against also

Daemons actually are a pretty nasty hard counter to Ogres.

Empire offers the most outright flexibility in terms of pure unit options & combos, but Lizardmen are the freaking army of dinosaurs!

Thanks for the the replies.
I was looking at the model ranges for the Empire and Ogres, and I think I like the diversity of the Empire more, a lot of colour and I really like their cavalry units.
Ogres on the other hand look a bit bland to me compared to the Empire.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
From what you've said ogres are the best. They cause fear have awesome impact hits. They are fun to play against also

Daemons actually are a pretty nasty hard counter to Ogres.

Empire offers the most outright flexibility in terms of pure unit options & combos, but Lizardmen are the freaking army of dinosaurs!

Yeah, I've heard Ogres don't really like facing Daemons, since my main opponent will be playing them I feel Ogres are off the list.

I think I would also be more comfortable painting an Empire army than a Lizardmen one. I don't think I would be able to paint a lot of them, they just don't look easy to paint compared to Empire.

I'm starting to lean more towards Empire now due to their versatility, is an army consisting of a lot of Knightly Orders, Demigryphs a block or two of State troops and a couple of warmachines viable for a starting army?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
From what you've said ogres are the best. They cause fear have awesome impact hits. They are fun to play against also

Daemons actually are a pretty nasty hard counter to Ogres.

Empire offers the most outright flexibility in terms of pure unit options & combos, but Lizardmen are the freaking army of dinosaurs!

Ah I must of missed the daemons part.

Hoyt wrote:Thanks for the the replies.
I was looking at the model ranges for the Empire and Ogres, and I think I like the diversity of the Empire more, a lot of colour and I really like their cavalry units.
Ogres on the other hand look a bit bland to me compared to the Empire.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
From what you've said ogres are the best. They cause fear have awesome impact hits. They are fun to play against also

Daemons actually are a pretty nasty hard counter to Ogres.

Empire offers the most outright flexibility in terms of pure unit options & combos, but Lizardmen are the freaking army of dinosaurs!

Yeah, I've heard Ogres don't really like facing Daemons, since my main opponent will be playing them I feel Ogres are off the list.

I think I would also be more comfortable painting an Empire army than a Lizardmen one. I don't think I would be able to paint a lot of them, they just don't look easy to paint compared to Empire.

I'm starting to lean more towards Empire now due to their versatility, is an army consisting of a lot of Knightly Orders, Demigryphs a block or two of State troops and a couple of warmachines viable for a starting army?

Another suggestion is VC. The only problem is they arent the most beginner friendly, took me a while to get the hang of them since they were my first army. Especially since they dont have shooting, ignore psych and the crumbling rule. But they have some of the best lords heroes special and rare units.

VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

 Hoyt wrote:
VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

Empire cav lists do quite well actually. The nice thing about them is they are a majority armor so base, wash, drybrush and 90% of the model is done.

If you would really like to do a big cav list then waiting till bretonians come out might be your thing. The one part about them is generally the paint schemes are quite colorful and if you dont do well painting things like red, yellows, whites you might want to consider some non traditional schemes but all in all they are still just knights. Again pesants can be done quickly with base, wash, highlight.

Vampires are easy to get "table ready" if you are willing to employ speed tactics like spraying the skeletons or dipping them. Zombies are so easy, base, wash, done.

There are tutorials on how to do all of these things out there.

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

Empire cav lists do quite well actually. The nice thing about them is they are a majority armor so base, wash, drybrush and 90% of the model is done.

If you would really like to do a big cav list then waiting till bretonians come out might be your thing. The one part about them is generally the paint schemes are quite colorful and if you dont do well painting things like red, yellows, whites you might want to consider some non traditional schemes but all in all they are still just knights. Again pesants can be done quickly with base, wash, highlight.

Vampires are easy to get "table ready" if you are willing to employ speed tactics like spraying the skeletons or dipping them. Zombies are so easy, base, wash, done.

There are tutorials on how to do all of these things out there.

While I do like Cav, the reason I didn't consider Brets was because most lists I've seen are pure cav, I still prefer the warmachines and other options the Empire has that Brets don't, I like to change up my lists a lot, having an almost completely cav army doesn't leave a lot of room for options, at least the Empire can do a few different playstyles.
I like the Empires fluff better as well, which is a major factor for me.

Even dipping doesn't stop the fact that i'm a very slow painter in general, and I ain't great with light colours like white, red, yellow etc.

Thanks for all the replies anyways, I think I'm gonna start Empire, I just love the models and their versatility, hopefully I can pick up the army book in a week or two.

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

Empire cav lists do quite well actually. The nice thing about them is they are a majority armor so base, wash, drybrush and 90% of the model is done.

If you would really like to do a big cav list then waiting till bretonians come out might be your thing. The one part about them is generally the paint schemes are quite colorful and if you dont do well painting things like red, yellows, whites you might want to consider some non traditional schemes but all in all they are still just knights. Again pesants can be done quickly with base, wash, highlight.

Vampires are easy to get "table ready" if you are willing to employ speed tactics like spraying the skeletons or dipping them. Zombies are so easy, base, wash, done.

There are tutorials on how to do all of these things out there.

While I do like Cav, the reason I didn't consider Brets was because most lists I've seen are pure cav, I still prefer the warmachines and other options the Empire has that Brets don't, I like to change up my lists a lot, having an almost completely cav army doesn't leave a lot of room for options, at least the Empire can do a few different playstyles.
I like the Empires fluff better as well, which is a major factor for me.

Even dipping doesn't stop the fact that i'm a very slow painter in general, and I ain't great with light colours like white, red, yellow etc.

Thanks for all the replies anyways, I think I'm gonna start Empire, I just love the models and their versatility, hopefully I can pick up the army book in a week or two.

With empire cav you need 3 paint brushes. You need a tank brush, large brush, and a detail brush. Use that tank brush and paint almost everything metal, wash it, drybrush it. Basecoat the horses, wash, one layer. Thats it. Im a very slow painter and when I set up a plan and just go to it, knights move quickly. Its the infantry that can take you a while but as you start go with mostly cav first and then slowly add your infantry. Warmachines go super quick as well.

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

Empire cav lists do quite well actually. The nice thing about them is they are a majority armor so base, wash, drybrush and 90% of the model is done.

If you would really like to do a big cav list then waiting till bretonians come out might be your thing. The one part about them is generally the paint schemes are quite colorful and if you dont do well painting things like red, yellows, whites you might want to consider some non traditional schemes but all in all they are still just knights. Again pesants can be done quickly with base, wash, highlight.

Vampires are easy to get "table ready" if you are willing to employ speed tactics like spraying the skeletons or dipping them. Zombies are so easy, base, wash, done.

There are tutorials on how to do all of these things out there.

While I do like Cav, the reason I didn't consider Brets was because most lists I've seen are pure cav, I still prefer the warmachines and other options the Empire has that Brets don't, I like to change up my lists a lot, having an almost completely cav army doesn't leave a lot of room for options, at least the Empire can do a few different playstyles.
I like the Empires fluff better as well, which is a major factor for me.

Even dipping doesn't stop the fact that i'm a very slow painter in general, and I ain't great with light colours like white, red, yellow etc.

Thanks for all the replies anyways, I think I'm gonna start Empire, I just love the models and their versatility, hopefully I can pick up the army book in a week or two.

With empire cav you need 3 paint brushes. You need a tank brush, large brush, and a detail brush. Use that tank brush and paint almost everything metal, wash it, drybrush it. Basecoat the horses, wash, one layer. Thats it. Im a very slow painter and when I set up a plan and just go to it, knights move quickly. Its the infantry that can take you a while but as you start go with mostly cav first and then slowly add your infantry. Warmachines go super quick as well.

Thanks for the tips , I think I'll go with a Nuln colour scheme, nice and simple.

I have a nuln theme army as well it is a super simple paint scheme but thematically its not very knight heavy. The paint scheme is easy, prime black, base with a very dark grey and wash nuln oil with a drybrush grey afterwards. With red Mepheston red will be your best friend. One coat the black will show through(slightly) and will be good if you want to keep the red nice and dark but 2 coats will completely cover it and give you a nice red that works great for a nuln theme.

Awesome, sounds like it won't take long to paint a 1000 point army.

 Hoyt wrote:

Spoiler:

 namiel wrote:
[spoiler]

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

Empire cav lists do quite well actually. The nice thing about them is they are a majority armor so base, wash, drybrush and 90% of the model is done.

If you would really like to do a big cav list then waiting till bretonians come out might be your thing. The one part about them is generally the paint schemes are quite colorful and if you dont do well painting things like red, yellows, whites you might want to consider some non traditional schemes but all in all they are still just knights. Again pesants can be done quickly with base, wash, highlight.

Vampires are easy to get "table ready" if you are willing to employ speed tactics like spraying the skeletons or dipping them. Zombies are so easy, base, wash, done.

There are tutorials on how to do all of these things out there.

While I do like Cav, the reason I didn't consider Brets was because most lists I've seen are pure cav, I still prefer the warmachines and other options the Empire has that Brets don't, I like to change up my lists a lot, having an almost completely cav army doesn't leave a lot of room for options, at least the Empire can do a few different playstyles.
I like the Empires fluff better as well, which is a major factor for me.

Even dipping doesn't stop the fact that i'm a very slow painter in general, and I ain't great with light colours like white, red, yellow etc.

Thanks for all the replies anyways, I think I'm gonna start Empire, I just love the models and their versatility, hopefully I can pick up the army book in a week or two.

With empire cav you need 3 paint brushes. You need a tank brush, large brush, and a detail brush. Use that tank brush and paint almost everything metal, wash it, drybrush it. Basecoat the horses, wash, one layer. Thats it. Im a very slow painter and when I set up a plan and just go to it, knights move quickly. Its the infantry that can take you a while but as you start go with mostly cav first and then slowly add your infantry. Warmachines go super quick as well.

Thanks for the tips , I think I'll go with a Nuln colour scheme, nice and simple.

I have a nuln theme army as well it is a super simple paint scheme but thematically its not very knight heavy. The paint scheme is easy, prime black, base with a very dark grey and wash nuln oil with a drybrush grey afterwards. With red Mepheston red will be your best friend. One coat the black will show through(slightly) and will be good if you want to keep the red nice and dark but 2 coats will completely cover it and give you a nice red that works great for a nuln theme.

Awesome, sounds like it won't take long to paint a 1000 point army.

Paint plans are big. Paint up a test model, write it out, and stick to it

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

Spoiler:

 namiel wrote:
[spoiler]

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

Empire cav lists do quite well actually. The nice thing about them is they are a majority armor so base, wash, drybrush and 90% of the model is done.

If you would really like to do a big cav list then waiting till bretonians come out might be your thing. The one part about them is generally the paint schemes are quite colorful and if you dont do well painting things like red, yellows, whites you might want to consider some non traditional schemes but all in all they are still just knights. Again pesants can be done quickly with base, wash, highlight.

Vampires are easy to get "table ready" if you are willing to employ speed tactics like spraying the skeletons or dipping them. Zombies are so easy, base, wash, done.

There are tutorials on how to do all of these things out there.

While I do like Cav, the reason I didn't consider Brets was because most lists I've seen are pure cav, I still prefer the warmachines and other options the Empire has that Brets don't, I like to change up my lists a lot, having an almost completely cav army doesn't leave a lot of room for options, at least the Empire can do a few different playstyles.
I like the Empires fluff better as well, which is a major factor for me.

Even dipping doesn't stop the fact that i'm a very slow painter in general, and I ain't great with light colours like white, red, yellow etc.

Thanks for all the replies anyways, I think I'm gonna start Empire, I just love the models and their versatility, hopefully I can pick up the army book in a week or two.

With empire cav you need 3 paint brushes. You need a tank brush, large brush, and a detail brush. Use that tank brush and paint almost everything metal, wash it, drybrush it. Basecoat the horses, wash, one layer. Thats it. Im a very slow painter and when I set up a plan and just go to it, knights move quickly. Its the infantry that can take you a while but as you start go with mostly cav first and then slowly add your infantry. Warmachines go super quick as well.

Thanks for the tips , I think I'll go with a Nuln colour scheme, nice and simple.

I have a nuln theme army as well it is a super simple paint scheme but thematically its not very knight heavy. The paint scheme is easy, prime black, base with a very dark grey and wash nuln oil with a drybrush grey afterwards. With red Mepheston red will be your best friend. One coat the black will show through(slightly) and will be good if you want to keep the red nice and dark but 2 coats will completely cover it and give you a nice red that works great for a nuln theme.

Awesome, sounds like it won't take long to paint a 1000 point army.

Paint plans are big. Paint up a test model, write it out, and stick to it

Good idea, I should be finished painting my 40k Orks soon and I'll be able to actually start buying my Empire minis in a month or two, I'm pretty eager to get started.
Thanks for the painting advice, it's much appreciated

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

Spoiler:

 namiel wrote:
[spoiler]

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

Empire cav lists do quite well actually. The nice thing about them is they are a majority armor so base, wash, drybrush and 90% of the model is done.

If you would really like to do a big cav list then waiting till bretonians come out might be your thing. The one part about them is generally the paint schemes are quite colorful and if you dont do well painting things like red, yellows, whites you might want to consider some non traditional schemes but all in all they are still just knights. Again pesants can be done quickly with base, wash, highlight.

Vampires are easy to get "table ready" if you are willing to employ speed tactics like spraying the skeletons or dipping them. Zombies are so easy, base, wash, done.

There are tutorials on how to do all of these things out there.

While I do like Cav, the reason I didn't consider Brets was because most lists I've seen are pure cav, I still prefer the warmachines and other options the Empire has that Brets don't, I like to change up my lists a lot, having an almost completely cav army doesn't leave a lot of room for options, at least the Empire can do a few different playstyles.
I like the Empires fluff better as well, which is a major factor for me.

Even dipping doesn't stop the fact that i'm a very slow painter in general, and I ain't great with light colours like white, red, yellow etc.

Thanks for all the replies anyways, I think I'm gonna start Empire, I just love the models and their versatility, hopefully I can pick up the army book in a week or two.

With empire cav you need 3 paint brushes. You need a tank brush, large brush, and a detail brush. Use that tank brush and paint almost everything metal, wash it, drybrush it. Basecoat the horses, wash, one layer. Thats it. Im a very slow painter and when I set up a plan and just go to it, knights move quickly. Its the infantry that can take you a while but as you start go with mostly cav first and then slowly add your infantry. Warmachines go super quick as well.

Thanks for the tips , I think I'll go with a Nuln colour scheme, nice and simple.

I have a nuln theme army as well it is a super simple paint scheme but thematically its not very knight heavy. The paint scheme is easy, prime black, base with a very dark grey and wash nuln oil with a drybrush grey afterwards. With red Mepheston red will be your best friend. One coat the black will show through(slightly) and will be good if you want to keep the red nice and dark but 2 coats will completely cover it and give you a nice red that works great for a nuln theme.

Awesome, sounds like it won't take long to paint a 1000 point army.

Paint plans are big. Paint up a test model, write it out, and stick to it

Good idea, I should be finished painting my 40k Orks soon and I'll be able to actually start buying my Empire minis in a month or two, I'm pretty eager to get started.
Thanks for the painting advice, it's much appreciated

The battalion box is a great place to start dare i say 2 boxes. For nuln you will use all of the infantry and a handful of the knights and most certianly the cannons

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

Spoiler:

 namiel wrote:
[spoiler]

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Hoyt wrote:
VC would have been my first choice but I could never paint the sheer amount of models required for even a small army, time is also a big factor, painting a couple a hundred

zombies and skeletons would take me a year or two, and I'd prefer to have an army built and painted in a couple months.

An cavalry heavy Empire army seems low enough on the model count that it wouldn't take to long to paint, plus I think the models are about as good as VC.

I just don't know if a cavalry heavy army is even semi-competitive, just enough to give me a fair fight against Daemons.

Empire cav lists do quite well actually. The nice thing about them is they are a majority armor so base, wash, drybrush and 90% of the model is done.

If you would really like to do a big cav list then waiting till bretonians come out might be your thing. The one part about them is generally the paint schemes are quite colorful and if you dont do well painting things like red, yellows, whites you might want to consider some non traditional schemes but all in all they are still just knights. Again pesants can be done quickly with base, wash, highlight.

Vampires are easy to get "table ready" if you are willing to employ speed tactics like spraying the skeletons or dipping them. Zombies are so easy, base, wash, done.

There are tutorials on how to do all of these things out there.

While I do like Cav, the reason I didn't consider Brets was because most lists I've seen are pure cav, I still prefer the warmachines and other options the Empire has that Brets don't, I like to change up my lists a lot, having an almost completely cav army doesn't leave a lot of room for options, at least the Empire can do a few different playstyles.
I like the Empires fluff better as well, which is a major factor for me.

Even dipping doesn't stop the fact that i'm a very slow painter in general, and I ain't great with light colours like white, red, yellow etc.

Thanks for all the replies anyways, I think I'm gonna start Empire, I just love the models and their versatility, hopefully I can pick up the army book in a week or two.

With empire cav you need 3 paint brushes. You need a tank brush, large brush, and a detail brush. Use that tank brush and paint almost everything metal, wash it, drybrush it. Basecoat the horses, wash, one layer. Thats it. Im a very slow painter and when I set up a plan and just go to it, knights move quickly. Its the infantry that can take you a while but as you start go with mostly cav first and then slowly add your infantry. Warmachines go super quick as well.

Thanks for the tips , I think I'll go with a Nuln colour scheme, nice and simple.

I have a nuln theme army as well it is a super simple paint scheme but thematically its not very knight heavy. The paint scheme is easy, prime black, base with a very dark grey and wash nuln oil with a drybrush grey afterwards. With red Mepheston red will be your best friend. One coat the black will show through(slightly) and will be good if you want to keep the red nice and dark but 2 coats will completely cover it and give you a nice red that works great for a nuln theme.

Awesome, sounds like it won't take long to paint a 1000 point army.

Paint plans are big. Paint up a test model, write it out, and stick to it

Good idea, I should be finished painting my 40k Orks soon and I'll be able to actually start buying my Empire minis in a month or two, I'm pretty eager to get started.
Thanks for the painting advice, it's much appreciated

The battalion box is a great place to start dare i say 2 boxes. For nuln you will use all of the infantry and a handful of the knights and most certianly the cannons

Sounds good, should I build the handgunners or crossbowmen? Which one is more effective as a detachment for the Halberdiers?

crossbows are REALLY nice having the 30" range though they dont have armor piercing like the handguns do BUT if you want a nuln army you go blackpowder all the way. Nuln is known for its blackpowder weapons and it would be really against the theme of a nuln army to use crossbows over handguns. IMO crossbows are more competitive because of the extra range. Both are move or fire weapons so that doesnt matter and both are str4.

IF theme is important to you then you will go with handgunners.

Here is what I have been using as my mainstay nuln list

Gotta advise against vc unless you are SURE you want vc. Starting fantasy with an undead army means you dont learn psycology which is a HUGE part of the game. Its easier to move into an undead army than out of one.

I stRted with vc and while i live them i knew i wanted an undead army and trying to move into DE and skaven has been rough as now i need to relearn the game as psychology and not being unbreakable with the "ill just raise them back" is just a huge change

 namiel wrote:

crossbows are REALLY nice having the 30" range though they dont have armor piercing like the handguns do BUT if you want a nuln army you go blackpowder all the way. Nuln is known for its blackpowder weapons and it would be really against the theme of a nuln army to use crossbows over handguns. IMO crossbows are more competitive because of the extra range. Both are move or fire weapons so that doesnt matter and both are str4.

IF theme is important to you then you will go with handgunners.

Here is what I have been using as my mainstay nuln list

Spoiler:

the only part not very nuln are the archers but they are too good of chaff not to use them. Its all about long range firepower.

Wizard Lord lvl4 Light
Talisman of Preservation

Heros 406pts

Captain
BSB, Full plate armor, Enchanted shield, Dawnstone

Engineer

Engineer

Lvl 1 Wizard Light

Lvl 1 Wizard Light
Dispel scroll

Core 666pts

38 Halberdiers
FC, Shields (Lvl4 and BSB here)
Det 10 Handgunners (Lvl1 here)

10 Handgunners (Lvl1 here)
Det 5 Archers
Det 5 Archers

5 Knightly orders
Musician

Special 592pts

4 Demigryph Knights
Musician, Standard

Cannon

Cannon

Mortar

Rare 490pts

Steam Tank

Helblaster

Helblaster

Total 2399

I quite like the look of that list, though I would prefer more Knights, I may have to "borrow" some aspects of it

I've heard Pistoliers make good chaff, are they better to use than archers?

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Gotta advise against vc unless you are SURE you want vc. Starting fantasy with an undead army means you dont learn psycology which is a HUGE part of the game. Its easier to move into an undead army than out of one.

I stRted with vc and while i live them i knew i wanted an undead army and trying to move into DE and skaven has been rough as now i need to relearn the game as psychology and not being unbreakable with the "ill just raise them back" is just a huge change

I love the VC's models but they require a lot of them and as you said they aren't the best for beginners, it's why I'm going for Empire, great looking army and versatile.