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I havent dabbled much with psychic powers since 5th, only a few games in 7th with low level psykers mainly based around buffs.
However, on reading the Malefic deck and its possibilities Im left wondering why would one not use it more?

Assuming you have the models and can avoid the miscast happenstances a lot of the powers, especially the primary give you free Daemon units?
With an awful lot of missions now being objective based all these guys have to do in essence, is hold your backfield objectives or contest a few around midfield whilst the main core of your army does its job.
They dont even have to be that lethal, they're free.

Am I missing something?
I concede the downsides are:
having the models/model count
miscasts on any doubles
problems if summoned by a non allied list e.g. IG or Eldar etc.

But if one just took 2-3 psyker summon caddies and went nuts/got a bit lucky you could flood the field with Daemons in addition to your core army?
Hmmm.

On theory, its completely bonkers and OP as feth.

In practice, its not really useful.

A summoning engine CAN and WILL double the army during the game by summoning additional summoners-but it won't win the game. the problem is, that's practically all you do as it requires a massive dedication to pull off reliably.

You got no real killpower, and if you want to summon killers, you might as well just get them with points to begin with.
The only benefit of the summoning method is when you either use it to bring counter units (and that requires a massive and varied pool of dudes), or when you splice a single summon spell to random units so they can try a summon if they have nothing else to do due to ranges.
And the 6 spell (forgot name) that summons the big dudes is a good "brake in case of emergency" spell.


The flaw in summoning is actually not in summoning.
Its in game length. its too short for them the engine to get a summoning mass, summon the actual killers and let them do the killing.
You either fall short in step 2 and don't have enough turns to actually kill stuff, or skip step 1 too quick and you don't manage to summon enough killers to be worthwhile.

The downside is that the cost of the guys to summon them are often more than the points they bring to the table. Summon is a 3 power. That's 3 rolls of 4+ to get it to go off.
You're going to need ~8 dice to be safe.
The balance is that the cost of those warp dice is so high, that it usually isn't worth it. You've got to have a lot of spare dice for it to work well (inquisitors, with psychic henchmen, joined up with grey knights).

Summoning only works out well if you can bring the exact unit you need for the problem at hand.
It's working well for my Dark Eldar/Daemon list, because I'm parring Psychic Scream with a -2 Leadership bubble.
Creating more units and stalling for time (they kill them as fast as I make them) works, because all the dark eldar get better as the power from pain progresses.

I have not seen a summon list that goes all in work well, and I haven't see a list that dabbles in it work well either; up until the new power from pain rules.

And those mishaps are a huge problem. They kill off your psykers and warp dice surprisingly fast.

But Im adopting the angle that the summoned guys dont need to be killers.

With objectives missions so common now and holding/contesting them of importance, all you need is a few Daemon units to do that.
They dont have to actually kill anything because the rest of your core force is doing that for you.

Its almost like getting a free ally. Not particularly lethal but annoying when contesting or guarding objectives?

If you just try to summon to hold objectives, and not actually dent the opposing army, you are likely to find yourself losing guys as fast or faster than you can summon them.


To properly summon a decent number of units, you need some heavy dedication to summoning, because you need a very big warp charge pool. and that aint cheap.

If you already have an army core, you will USUALLY fare better by just getting more of your army than spreading part of it into a warp charge engine to power up your summoning.

The only way a "minimalist summoning scoring units" is to take a minimalist deamons allies of pink horrors and T heralds, pumped up to high warp charges and summon more horros (and hopefully T heralds if you manage to roll it.)
It will get you a decent bulk of demons to hold opbectives, but it will NOT be cheap. and in non-chaos forces, it won't mix well either.

Good points guys, cheers.
Was just wondering if I was missing something else!

On a related note.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/615025.page

A good way to do summoning is aim to summon 1-2 supporting units a turn to jump onto objectives or provide help where necessary. Summoning is like an other psychic support and can be nice but should rarely be the focus of the army.

Also precision shots can really ruin your day. Some snipers taking out the heralds will remove Warp Charges quicker than you can compensate.

Summoning works very well in a list that is catered for it. Whilst some people spend all their points on summoning, a better option imo is to have a mix of offense and summoning.

When I play summoning daemons, I will of course take heralds and battery pink horror units. However, I will almost always take 2-3 soul grinders and a unit of flesh hounds to put the pressure on. This way the army will still have some presence on the table, but will still have the power to put out a lot of units as well.

Why do people no do it more? Because some people don't like to play it, or against it. Also it takes a lot of models and potentially a lot of time.

Also precision shots can really ruin your day. Some snipers taking out the heralds will remove Warp Charges quicker than you can compensate.

Sorry but this is a ridiculous counter to summoning.
Lets look at the maths. 120 sniper shots will result in 20 precision hits. Of these 10 will wound, and 1.667 will get past LOS (I know this is the wrong order, but its easier for the maths). Then, if the horrors are in the open, the herald will have a 5++ save re-rolling 1's. This means about 1 wound for every 120 sniper shots you fire at the unit. If the squad is in any 4+ or better cover these odds start to get significantly worse.

You know what is better at sniping than snipers? Artillery. Fire off a Wyvern or a tfc at the squad and you stand a better chance of taking the heralds out.

Edit: The biggest exception to this will be the vindicare. As he has a modifier to any LOS roll against a hit he causes, and ignores cover. Beyond this one sniper, almost all others are a terrible counter.

I've been trying to get back into my daemons and I definitely want to try out a list with a strong summoning core.

Big Blind Bill, what would you say to something like this (I want grinders in it but don't have any [sad face]):

Be'lakor

2x Tz'erald, ML3, Disc

2x Kh'erald, Axe, Jugger, Locus of Wrath

16 Horrors
16 Horrors

15 Hounds
14 Hounds

9 Screamers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was figuring the hounds should put the pressure on pretty well especially if I roll cursed earth (which I should) and or hide Belakor and use him to invis them. Tzeralds do their thing and summon stuff. Not sure if I should try to get the grimoire in here or not though

It works well in a FMC list as well. Nurgle Princes Jinking for 2++ the only problem is the purchase of a GUO but they are not terrible.

I've found it to be absolutely horrible. My friend has decided not to use Malefic as it is such a potent force multiplier (as in obscene force multiplier).
1500pts
B'elako
Cultists
Heldrake

Bloodthirster* 2 Greater
2 Tzneetch heralds 1 Exalted each
2 (or 3?) Horror Squads
12-15 Dogs

Basically;

There is such inbuilt multiple layer resiliency in this list. The bloodthirster has two greater rewards and most of those can make him nigh un-killable (4+ FNP, +1W, IWND etc), he also has the book & belakors Telepathy. Combined with some shrewd cursed earth - Between Belakor, the dogs and the Bloodthirster, there are some extremely hard targets.

The horrors are stupendously resislient, they are very difficult to kill. They do get whittled down but this has zero effect on their killing power. In addition, the heralds obviously LOS a ton of wounds, often the last to die.

So the inbuilt resiliency of the army is not reliant (mostly) on Warp Charges, so all of it can go on summoning. Or shooting, or what ever is needed.

My one Guard Psyker consistently summons 4 - 5 times a game at level 2. Usually thats 40-50 extra wounds on the table.

I usually run 2 psykers but its expensive to do.

So yea I find it incredibly useful. At worse your psyker dies after a few miscasts. At best he doesnt die and you have a bunch of demons running around.

Yeah it of and itself is not the best way to go, you're usually okay with just 20 warp charge.

If your army has offensive power it helps.

Astro that lists looks fine. The biggest question I ask myself when playing daemons is 'will I be able to take down those knights/ AV13 walkers'. This is something that summoning doesn't have a strong answer to.

Screamers are ok in a stopgap kind of way, but not great. I would try and get a grimoire in there. Screamers with a 2++ save may eventually bring down a knight, stomp attacks permitting.
Of course Be'lakor can get the job done, but it is risky.

For me I love my soul grinders buffed with grimoire and invis for the job.

Thanks for the input Triple B.

Armor is definitely a problem for pure demon lists without Soul Grinders so I'll probably invest in some soon. Do you prefer Nurgle Grinders or Slaanesh Grinders? I don't see a lot of knights in my meta (yes it's a small one) but IG parking lots are a problem sometimes. I have some CSM stuff so I might try fitting in some AT from there to help

AM armour, or any other kind of tank for that matter, are not really a problem as flesh hounds and screamers can easily deal with them as they hit the rear armour.

Av 12 or 13 front walkers are a pain though as your dogs simply cannot hurt them.

Personally I like slaanesh torrent grinders myself, as they can get right up the board asap and can help get rid of cover hugging blobs.

Some people take them without a secondary weapon, just a bare slaanesh grinder to run at the opposition.