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Limit of 12 models.
I'm thinking 2 beastmasters, 2 razor flocks and 8 khymera.
I think you need at least 2 beastmasters due to the horrible leadership of the pack I'd be worried about a single beastmaster getting picked off early.
The T5 beasts look decent, but to get majority T5, you also pick up majority WS3.

What do you take?

You're probably going to want to take Eldar allies for access to things like Wave Serpents, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, etc.

I'd put my Eldar HQ unit there, and let him handle the leadership issues.

Corollax wrote:
You're probably going to want to take Eldar allies for access to things like Wave Serpents, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, etc.
I'd put my Eldar HQ unit there, and let him handle the leadership issues.

So that frees up the 2 spots the beastmasters were taking.
Given that, what do you take for the beasts?

And I'm not taking eldar as allies, I'm going daemon. Because... reasons.

555pts for

Barahoth + 12 Clawed Fiends = Profit...

Honestly I'd go with 5 fiends, 4 flocks, 2 dogs and 1 master. Fiends and flocks tank a few wounds, invul when needed, and in theory you should be good to go by the time you make it into combat

Cambonimachine wrote:
Honestly I'd go with 5 fiends, 4 flocks, 2 dogs and 1 master. Fiends and flocks tank a few wounds, invul when needed, and in theory you should be good to go by the time you make it into combat

I think flocks are terrible now at 20ppm with WS2 3w and 4 attacks. They hit characters on 5's now making the chance to rend much worse. with 2 less wounds they don't soak wounds very well either. Plus with your config only one clawed fiend needs to die to make the unit t3. A smart player will shoot the right unit to plink that fiend out then open up with his high volume unit and kill that unit off. Not to mention the one beast master makes the unit easy pray for barrage weapons. It's not like thunder fires, wyverns, lobbas and biovores are rare to see.

 Red Corsair wrote:
555pts for
Barahoth + 12 Clawed Fiends = Profit...

Why Baharroth?
And is it better than 4-5 other beast packs?

-Matt

Some ideas:

No more Flocks for one...

Next, 2 BMs + 4 Fiends. Keep the LD up with 2 BMs and more fiends means T5. 140 pts but no real way to get saves without psychic buffs.

Or, 2 BMs + 6 or more Dogs. Again, 2 BMs for the LD. T4, which isn't bad. Less than 100 pts has an I save and decent attacks but, not enough wounds or resiliency.

Go big with 6 Fiends, 4 Dogs and, 2 BMs. Keep that T5 for a good while, weight of attacks, some I saves to tanks a few hits. This mode has it all for like 240 pts (and a lot of real dollars I might add).

Not much of this factors in allied special character skills like 220 pts or whatever of Baharroth or 155 pts of Shard of Anaris BikeSeer.

240 points for a unit, and for 220 more, you can give it hit and run. That, does not sound good.
I wonder; with beasts ignoring the slowing effect of terrain, do you even need the 5+ invul?

What about not running naked beastmasters?
50 points for the unit turns 4 S3 attacks, into 6 AP3 poison 4+ attacks. It's steep, but it is a significant improvement vs 3+.

10 Khymera +2 agonized beast masters. 170 points.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
240 points for a unit, and for 220 more, you can give it hit and run. That, does not sound good.
I wonder; with beasts ignoring the slowing effect of terrain, do you even need the 5+ invul?

What about not running naked beastmasters?
50 points for the unit turns 4 S3 attacks, into 6 AP3 poison 4+ attacks. It's steep, but it is a significant improvement vs 3+.

10 Khymera +2 agonized beast masters. 170 points.

Baharroth is AP 3in combat and has blind. I think if you run him, you are taking a beast pack as extra wounds or to make him T5. Still seems meh to me though.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
555pts for
Barahoth + 12 Clawed Fiends = Profit...

Why Baharroth?
And is it better than 4-5 other beast packs?

-Matt

Barahoth is actually only 195, he is basically the Baron only upgraded which is why he cost more. He is drazar stats with a 3 shot rifle and a power sword. Has eternal warrior a 2+ and a 4++, haywire grenades and at any point late game can sky leap and no scatter deepstrike somewhere you need him while dropping a grenade.

You will struggle to find a beastpack build that is better then this at only 555. It has 40 t5 wounds and hits like a double decker bus, it also can't be locked in combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
240 points for a unit, and for 220 more, you can give it hit and run. That, does not sound good.
I wonder; with beasts ignoring the slowing effect of terrain, do you even need the 5+ invul?

What about not running naked beastmasters?
50 points for the unit turns 4 S3 attacks, into 6 AP3 poison 4+ attacks. It's steep, but it is a significant improvement vs 3+.

10 Khymera +2 agonized beast masters. 170 points.

Baharroth is AP 3in combat and has blind. I think if you run him, you are taking a beast pack as extra wounds or to make him T5. Still seems meh to me though.

It's actually great. DE have a fragility problem, running a unit like this along with an allied wraith knight force your opponent into dealing with them turn 1 rather then shooting at our venoms and raiders. Our units are SO inexpensive now that running that unit, a wraith knight and some wind riders still leaves tons of points to take our usual toys.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
555pts for
Barahoth + 12 Clawed Fiends = Profit...

Why Baharroth?
And is it better than 4-5 other beast packs?

-Matt

Barahoth is actually only 195, he is basically the Baron only upgraded which is why he cost more. He is drazar stats with a 3 shot rifle and a power sword. Has eternal warrior a 2+ and a 4++, haywire grenades and at any point late game can sky leap and no scatter deepstrike somewhere you need him while dropping a grenade.
You will struggle to find a beastpack build that is better then this at only 555. It has 40 t5 wounds and hits like a double decker bus, it also can't be locked in combat.

I didn't mean to make it sound like Baharroth instead of 4-5 other packs, I meant to say 12 claws + baharroth vs 4-5 other packs.
I'm having tons of luck with 10 Khymera + 2 beast masters (only 120 each).
I can run 4 of those units for less than the cost of your single beast pack.
You say, "only 555" like it's not a huge number.

-Matt

To me 555 isn't a huge number really. The unit will actually draw more fire and win more assaults then your packs, as well as being slippery due to hit and run. It is also fearless which is massive. Taking 4-5 small [packs also wastes our best slots. Personally I find myself needing scourge in every list I make. At least 2 units. Then reavers are also very useful, AND the razorwing. So I can't see taking so many small packs as a solid TAC option. I agree it sounds like a blast and can mess up certain opponents, its MSU which is great. But now where are you getting quality AT?

Khymera are awful at AT. S4 just doesn't cut it, also consider how fragile these units are, every wound you take you lose 10% of your damage output.

Also it isn't 555pts from one pack its a 360 point fiend pack plus 195 point barahoth. I would pit this unit against all 4 of your packs. It's fearless, has majority T5, has a 2+ save tank and in assaults I can spread wounds over 13 3 wound models meaning you need to inflict 25 unsaved wounds before it loses a single model.

Most importantly as I said it creates a MUST deal with unit that is in the enemies face turn 1 and should be in cover as well. It has a large footprint and can wreck vehicles and tie up units then hit an run out. Most opponents will shoot WAY more then the unit costs turn after turn. This is AWESOME for DE.

Take a WK and as well and now you have two incredibly fast and durabvle threats in their face soaking shots.

Meanwhile after the pack 555 + WK 240 + WRJB 51 = 846 meaning you have 1000 points at 1850 for high output units like scourge and venoms.

5 man warrior squads in a dual canon venom is only 105 pts.

Haywire/heatlance scourge are only 120 pts.

6 man dual heatlance reavers are only 116 pts.

Thats alot of firepower that can still be thrown in.

On this note, How do you think Irillyth would fit in? 25 Points more, but has access to AP2 shooting and CC, no invul, but has 4+ cover. LD shenanigans could be fun as well.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
On this note, How do you think Irillyth would fit in? 25 Points more, but has access to AP2 shooting and CC, no invul, but has 4+ cover. LD shenanigans could be fun as well.

He is not as fast but yea I could see him having a spot too. I also love the modeling potential for those guys. I am making a scourge phoenix lord, basically a raven/tengu model for barahoth. I am also making a coven wraith knight with its own spinal sump and large feathered wings.

In game terms I really like the fiend pack because it isn't super expensive or super cheesy. It's just the right ratio and fills a gap that needs filling IMHO.

 Red Corsair wrote:
To me 555 isn't a huge number really. The unit will actually draw more fire and win more assaults then your packs, as well as being slippery due to hit and run. It is also fearless which is massive. Taking 4-5 small [packs also wastes our best slots. Personally I find myself needing scourge in every list I make. At least 2 units. Then reavers are also very useful, AND the razorwing. So I can't see taking so many small packs as a solid TAC option. I agree it sounds like a blast and can mess up certain opponents, its MSU which is great. But now where are you getting quality AT?

Khymera are awful at AT. S4 just doesn't cut it, also consider how fragile these units are, every wound you take you lose 10% of your damage output.

Also it isn't 555pts from one pack its a 360 point fiend pack plus 195 point barahoth. I would pit this unit against all 4 of your packs. It's fearless, has majority T5, has a 2+ save tank and in assaults I can spread wounds over 13 3 wound models meaning you need to inflict 25 unsaved wounds before it loses a single model.

Most importantly as I said it creates a MUST deal with unit that is in the enemies face turn 1 and should be in cover as well. It has a large footprint and can wreck vehicles and tie up units then hit an run out. Most opponents will shoot WAY more then the unit costs turn after turn. This is AWESOME for DE.

You need 2 detachments to take Barry. I'd go without eldar and take 2x Real Space Raiders. 12 fast attack slots, problem solved.

Footprint wise, the claws + Barry are a single 25mm base larger then one pack of 10 khymera + 2 beast masters.
You should try Khymera for anti-tank. They glance out anything rear armor 10. 40 S4 attacks, 2/3rds hits, 6's to glance. It's 4.44 glances average.
How are you spreading the wounds between 13 models? Page 52 says that once a model has a wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you must continue to allocate wounds to it until it is eather removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty.
The advantage of 4 packs is saturation. Paying 10 points per T5 wound with no save is better than paying 10 points for a T4 model with a 5+ invul? I'm not sold on that.
Majority WS3 means you're hit on 3+ by most things, and wounded on 5+. In contrast, Khymera are hit on 4+ and wounded on 4+. Again, 5+ invul vs 6+ armor, makes wound for wound, Khymera more durable.
The problem with a 555 point blob is multiple charges. Barry can't tank everything, One of the two charging units won't be touching barry.

Corollax wrote:
You're probably going to want to take Eldar allies for access to things like Wave Serpents, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, etc.

I'd put my Eldar HQ unit there, and let him handle the leadership issues.

I agree with this. The Eldar can chill out in a bike or jumppack, where a DE character would need to follow along on foot.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Why Baharroth?

Fearless and Hit and Run.
The problem with adding him is that you start to really increase the cost of the unit, making it a more desirable target for your opponent to shoot.
To counter this, you need to add additional layers of protection around it, like a farseer giving it invisibility. Now your looking at a Eldar primary army and continuing the increase the cost of the beastpack.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Corollax wrote:
You're probably going to want to take Eldar allies for access to things like Wave Serpents, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, etc.

I'd put my Eldar HQ unit there, and let him handle the leadership issues.

I agree with this. The Eldar can chill out in a bike or jumppack, where a DE character would need to follow along on foot.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Why Baharroth?

Fearless and Hit and Run.
The problem with adding him is that you start to really increase the cost of the unit, making it a more desirable target for your opponent to shoot.
To counter this, you need to add additional layers of protection around it, like a farseer giving it invisibility. Now your looking at a Eldar primary army and continuing the increase the cost of the beastpack.

And at that point, everything is good.
Seriously, what isn't awesome with hit and run and invisibility?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
To me 555 isn't a huge number really. The unit will actually draw more fire and win more assaults then your packs, as well as being slippery due to hit and run. It is also fearless which is massive. Taking 4-5 small [packs also wastes our best slots. Personally I find myself needing scourge in every list I make. At least 2 units. Then reavers are also very useful, AND the razorwing. So I can't see taking so many small packs as a solid TAC option. I agree it sounds like a blast and can mess up certain opponents, its MSU which is great. But now where are you getting quality AT?

Khymera are awful at AT. S4 just doesn't cut it, also consider how fragile these units are, every wound you take you lose 10% of your damage output.

Also it isn't 555pts from one pack its a 360 point fiend pack plus 195 point barahoth. I would pit this unit against all 4 of your packs. It's fearless, has majority T5, has a 2+ save tank and in assaults I can spread wounds over 13 3 wound models meaning you need to inflict 25 unsaved wounds before it loses a single model.

Most importantly as I said it creates a MUST deal with unit that is in the enemies face turn 1 and should be in cover as well. It has a large footprint and can wreck vehicles and tie up units then hit an run out. Most opponents will shoot WAY more then the unit costs turn after turn. This is AWESOME for DE.

You need 2 detachments to take Barry. I'd go without eldar and take 2x Real Space Raiders. 12 fast attack slots, problem solved.

Footprint wise, the claws + Barry are a single 25mm base larger then one pack of 10 khymera + 2 beast masters.
You should try Khymera for anti-tank. They glance out anything rear armor 10. 40 S4 attacks, 2/3rds hits, 6's to glance. It's 4.44 glances average.
How are you spreading the wounds between 13 models? Page 52 says that once a model has a wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you must continue to allocate wounds to it until it is eather removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty.
The advantage of 4 packs is saturation. Paying 10 points per T5 wound with no save is better than paying 10 points for a T4 model with a 5+ invul? I'm not sold on that.
Majority WS3 means you're hit on 3+ by most things, and wounded on 5+. In contrast, Khymera are hit on 4+ and wounded on 4+. Again, 5+ invul vs 6+ armor, makes wound for wound, Khymera more durable.
The problem with a 555 point blob is multiple charges. Barry can't tank everything, One of the two charging units won't be touching barry.

You can LOS wounds from barahoth to the 4 fiends around him. Then in a new combat start over with smart placement. Sorry I wasn't clear. If you pig piled half your army on the unit then spreading wounds becomes much harder. Not as hard as you'd think however as you also left out some details in assault. You don't continue allocating to one model in the initiative step solely, you also need to consider which units are attacking. In other words if you are taking 2+ packs against my 1 I can definitely allocate wounds to new models if they are based by a different unit of yours.

Well you are ignoring the allied detachment in place of a second detachment for one. Second if your taking so much realspace raider detachments your lacking obsec.

Problem with khymera is the difficulty in getting 10 into combat. t4 1w and a 5++ isn't going to be hard to cripple.



As far as durability verse output you are still ignoring that every unsaved wound a Khymera pack takes drops its attacks by 3 (4 on assaults) meaning once 4 are killed you no longer can glance out rhino on the charge.

A lack of fearless on ANY offense geared pack makes a massive difference as tank shock alone can be used to route your packs with virtually no risk to the tanks at S4. With LD8 it just takes a few cheap rhino moves to send half your packs running (the none crippled ones ideally).

Your still ignoring the biggest weak spot though, the 2 t3 5+ save wounds that are anchoring your leadership above 5. Barrage will easily snipe out pack masters, even one dying makes the second susceptible to challenges where you now MUST accept or forfeit the LD anyway. An even slightly damaged Khymera pack will struggle to beat marines. You need 3 dogs to kill one marine on the charge meaning by the time you weather turns 1-2 and crack their rhinos and eat 2 over watches your doing well if you can kill more then 2 on the charge. Less after, with no hit and run.

I think you are on to something if you take 4+ khymera packs, but now your spending the same as the fiend pack only your using 4x the FA slots meaning I can play with a CAD giving me obsec which is another layer you would need to address. You are also going to have trouble finding cover and sol;id positioning with 4 seperate packs totaling 48 models! This seems cool on the surface but will drastically limit your deployments and make units like haywire scourge much harder to use as they will need to deploy farther back, or get mixed in with the packs.

I do want to say I am liking the idea of multiple packs more and more as we discuss it though, I just think overall I favor the fiendpack as it adds durability we rarely see as DE players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Corollax wrote:
You're probably going to want to take Eldar allies for access to things like Wave Serpents, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, etc.

I'd put my Eldar HQ unit there, and let him handle the leadership issues.

I agree with this. The Eldar can chill out in a bike or jumppack, where a DE character would need to follow along on foot.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Why Baharroth?

Fearless and Hit and Run.
The problem with adding him is that you start to really increase the cost of the unit, making it a more desirable target for your opponent to shoot.
To counter this, you need to add additional layers of protection around it, like a farseer giving it invisibility. Now your looking at a Eldar primary army and continuing the increase the cost of the beastpack.

This is very disingenuous. Everything in the game doesn't need invisibility. That is such a crutch statement. Is Invisibilty better? Yes obviously, but as Matt stated what isn't?

Barahoth is only 195, which is WAY cheaper then people are willing to admit for what you get. His secondary abilities give him massive utility on his own late game. Him and some wind riders is only 246 as allies. I just add his cost in with the pack for ease but the fiend pack is only 360 for 12 3w t5 models that move as beasts. That is 36 t5 wounds assaulting turn 2. Like I said add in a wraith knight while your taking allies and you have all the wholes filled in. You have 2 very fast, very durable threats in their face turn 1 with PLENTY of points left over for crippling shooting.

I'd rather have Barry leading the Grotesquerie.
For 5 points more than a claw, you give up fleet(but might get it back), but bring in a ton more durability and hitting power. With webway, they can all deep strike and ravage the backfield, and you've got a throwaway character to give you options with a challenge.

Beastmasters are no longer characters and cannot be challenged out.
Tank shocking: Beasts are hitting combat from 14 to 24" out, (21" being the average move + charge roll), I'd be comfortable setting up a charge 16-18" out. That puts it outside of tank shock range, until you choose to move into that threat range, which you should only be doing after you've already hit something.
And, outside of the 2 units that can take heat lances, everything in the army is vulnerable to tank shocking. On an Ld8, 73% of the time you pass. Unlike most DE units, putting a tank point blank is a bad idea for beast packs, where as against the rest, it doesn't really make a difference. So sure, tank shocking is a problem, but more so for reavers, scourge with haywire, wyches, warriors, incubi, wracks, grotesques, trueborne, bloodbrides, and hellions.

As for difficulty of getting into the fight, it's been very easy. A 12" move (ignoring difficult ground), 2D6 charge (re-roll either or both dice, ignoring difficult), and a 3" pile in, makes it pretty easy to get everything within 2" of the front models (even with 40mm bases). Basically, if the back model is within 22" at the start of the turn, odds are good that he's going to be swinging.

If you were running 12 Claws, what would your CAD be? Eldar, or Dark Eldar? If dark eldar, then you just picked up OBJ Secure on warriors and wyches, which I can tell you sucks. Could split the difference and go with CAD/Real Space for 9 fast attacks if you have your heart set on obj sec. You could go CAD eldar, which kind of makes it an eldar army with DE allies (which isn't bad by any strech), but then you aren't really adding durability to a DE army, you're adding a beat sticks to an Eldar Army.

As for placement of scourge, from the games I've played and seen, you don't want them on the table at all. Deep strike them. T3 4+ is too easy to lose early.

My biggest concern about Claws + single character, is that character can't tank if he's in a challenge. If he declines, you've got big leadership issues.

Actually characters can tank even if they decline a challenge and though you lose his LD you never lose his fearless, so it isn't as big an issue as you would expect.

I think maybe we are arguing against eachother for no reason here. I like a lot of your ideas but it is more of a play style difference and the shape I want my overall list that makes a fiend pack more appealing at the moment.

I love the idea of adding Bary to a full strength grot pack with portal as well btw.

I love grots and I love them most in large groups fior some reason even though 4 man groups in raiders seem to be much better overall, but having barahoth in there adds a great element. Actually I might try Irillith with them since he has such a great leadership debuff that would stack with the armor of misery and the coven rule stupidly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also good call on beast masters, I didn't realize that change.

I am still getting used to 7th army construction honestly. Some places still only allow allies, some CAD. With normal unrestricted battleforged I would run primary DE and ally eldar at 1750-1850. At 1850 I might consider two CADs but would be more inclined for that at 2000pts. I love realspace raiders detachment when I play pure DE but I find using eldar as an allie means I don't actually have the points to take full advantage of 6 FA from DE. Not unless I am not taking things from eldar, by that I mean if I take 3 FA plus one eldar FA allies or worse yet 3 more FA from allies, their is no need to hamfist 3 more from DE.

Also I think obsec is awesome on troop transports. I t is so handy in maelstrom and should not be overlooked.

 Red Corsair wrote:
To me 555 isn't a huge number really. The unit will actually draw more fire and win more assaults then your packs, as well as being slippery due to hit and run. It is also fearless which is massive.

My only concern is that T5 is not what it used to be in 40k. Far to many codex's have enough STR 6/7 weapons at their disposal to greatly lower the effectiveness of the T5.
Look at what a wave serpent will do to the Clawed Fiends.
Scatter Laser..........4 (shots) * 8/9 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) = 2.37 wounds
Serpent Shield........4.5 (shots) * 8/9 (hit) * 5/6 (wound) * 5/6 (failed save) = 2.77 wounds
Shuriken Cannon.... 3 (shots) * 8/9 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) = 1.78 wounds
So one wave serpent will do ~6.92 wounds of Clawed Fiends in a single round of shooting.

This is why I suggested another character using psychic powers to help increase the durability of the unit.
The unit will hit like a truck when it gets into assault on turn 2, it just needs to have enough teeth left over to get to that turn.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
To me 555 isn't a huge number really. The unit will actually draw more fire and win more assaults then your packs, as well as being slippery due to hit and run. It is also fearless which is massive.

My only concern is that T5 is not what it used to be in 40k. Far to many codex's have enough STR 6/7 weapons at their disposal to greatly lower the effectiveness of the T5.
Look at what a wave serpent will do to the Clawed Fiends.
Scatter Laser..........4 (shots) * 8/9 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) = 2.37 wounds
Serpent Shield........4.5 (shots) * 8/9 (hit) * 5/6 (wound) * 5/6 (failed save) = 2.77 wounds
Shuriken Cannon.... 3 (shots) * 8/9 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) = 1.78 wounds
So one wave serpent will do ~6.92 wounds of Clawed Fiends in a single round of shooting.

This is why I suggested another character using psychic powers to help increase the durability of the unit.
The unit will hit like a truck when it gets into assault on turn 2, it just needs to have enough teeth left over to get to that turn.

I agree with those assessments 100% but understand that for the sake of discussion and keeping the game/conversation fresh I no longer equate things against the wave serpent. Call it foolish, but to me measuring everything against the most prolific/busted unit in the game currently seems like a fruitless endeaver.

If I want to beat serpents, I can play serpents myself or marines/knights... Thats pretty much where it stops. I hate serpents for balance sake so I just play the game as if they aren't going to be spammed and if they are I'll deal with it the best I can by playing the missions and clenching my donkey-cave and not worry too much further.

Funny, I'm specifically taking Khymera to go after serpents.
6.92 wounds on Clawed Fiends is 5.67 wounds vs Khymera.
It takes ~2 full turns of full shooting to kill a pack.
A serpent does ~3.95 wounds to a reaver squad (2 volleys to kill the caltrops)
A serpent erases a scourge unit.
A serpent does 4.98 wounds to a Grotesque, needing 3 volleys (1 to kill the raider, and 2 more to whack the unit).

With enough beast packs, reavers and grotesques, you will make it in. Khymera are slightly more cost effective at absorbing those wounds than Clawed Fiends, and the cheaper costs means that odds of over-killing is higher, which makes for wasteful shooting... List to follow.

I generally run lots of dogs and Clawed Fiends in my lists. Makes it very difficult for my brother to get his army going!
PS> Aren't Khymerae faster than Marines in melee?