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I'm teaching a friend who plans to buy my Dark Angels from me how to play the game. I haven't taught him about point values and army list building and instead we've tried to keep the armies used to teach him the rules about equal. However, he's been losing too me a lot (he got his first win last night because I had to forfeit the battle due to having an online date planned with my girlfriend in Florida).

He's using Dark Angels and here's what he has to choose from: All the models are equipped with what is stated, I have no models to replace ineffective ones with and none of them are magnetized.
-HQs-
Company Master with Stormshield, Powersword and Bolt Pistol.
Company master with Combi-Plasma and Powersword.
Interrogator Chaplain with Crozius Arcanum and Plasma Pistol.
Librarian with Forcesword and Bolt Pisol.
Company Command Squad with Company Champion, 1 Vet with Plasma Pistol and Chainsword, 1 Vet with Plasmagun, 1 Vet with Plasma Pistol and Power Maul and 1 Vet with Boltgun.

-Elites-
5 Man Deathwing Terminator Squad, including 1 Term with Assault Canon and Powerfist, 1 Term with Chainfist and Stormbolter and a Sergeant with Powersword and Stormbolter.
1, non-upgraded, Dreadnought

-Fast Attack-
3 Man Ravenwing Attack Squadron, including 1 Biker with a Plasmagun and a Sergeant with Chainfist.

-Troops-
10 Man Tactical Squad with a Sergeant with a Plasma Pistol and Chainsword, 1 Marine with a Plasmagun and 1 Marine with a Plasma Cannon.
10 Man Tactical Squad with a Sergeant with a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword, 1 Marine with a Meltagun and 1 Marine with a Missile Launcher.
5 Man Scout Squad with a Sergeant with a Sniper Rifle and Powerfist, 4 Scouts with Sniper Rifles. All have Camo Cloaks

He generally fields the Chaplain, the Combi Plasma Company Master, both Tactical Squads and he seems to trade of between the Dreadnought, Company Command Squad and Ravenwing depending on his mood.


I field all the orks I currently own:
-HQs-
Warboss with Power Klaw, Twin-Linked Shoota, Bosspole
Warboss with Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha, Bosspole

-Troops-
10 Ork Slugga Boyz Mob with 1 Nob and 1 Boy with Bigshoota
10 Ork Slugga Boyz Mob with 1 Nob and 1 Boy with Bigshoota

-Fast Attack-
3 Ork Deffkopta Squadron all with Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas.




Every game generally goes the same. I send one Warboss and Boyz Mob to flank him from the left, another Boss and Boyz Mob to flank him from the right and my Deffkoptas straight down the middle. He focusses on the Deffkoptas and by the time he brings them down (I'm apparently insanely lucky with saves) my Warboss and Boyz from the right are descending upon his army for close combat, while my other Warboss and Boyz are now coming up from behind to attack what forces my first Warboss and Boyz group couldn't engage. I told him he shouldn't focuss on my Deffkoptas and instead try and take out my Warbosses and Boyz before they can get close, he says I'm trying to trick him. Anyway, he's insisting that the forces he's fielding aren't good enough and wants to field 1 Intterogator Chaplain, both Tactical squads, 1 ravenwing biker squad and 1 terminator squad. I've been reluctant since I currently have nothing that can kill terminators.

So, is the problem the list or the general?

Assuming no upgrades on your Nobz, just the 2 tacticals and one of the hq's should be equal points to your entire force. Without any trukks or wagons, his bolters should be mullering your boyz before they even get close. It really shouldn't be as one-sided as you say.

Barring crazy luck, it's him, not the lists.

The DA list outnumbers orks. I'm going to let that sink in a moment. Seriously.

Two company masters against two warbosses, but the DA list also has a libby, and a chaplain and a retinue. There are more marines on the table than there are boyz, and he has bikes as a counter to coptaz, while the DA list has terminators to the ork's... nothing.

The list is heavily slanted in favor of DA. Once again, unless you really are that insanely lucky with your rolls, your opponent must be doing something seriously wrong. Which makes sense if he is, as you say, a noob.

If he really thinks things are so unfair, then play a double-header where you start by taking over the DA army and having him play with the orks. Once you show him how easily the DA can win this, it might clue him in that there are things he could be doing differently, like, say, in the next game you play after the first one.

As Allaros says,
I'd recommend you two switching armies. Not only will you get some variety in your games. He'll see how your army functions and may get some ideas on how to beat it.

Think you guys are misreading.
His friend isnt taking all the units listed- thats what he has to choose from.
If Im reading right he is usually picking a chaplain, master, two tac units and then either a dread, bikes or command.

You say you arent allowing him pick termies? Why?
I dont have army builder handy, what points level do you play? 500?

Killing 2 Warbosses is pretty tough for a small Marine army. Also he doesn't have enough shooty things in his list to quickly & reliably deal with Deffkoptas. I'd also guess that his deployments are sub-optimal: he should try to refuse flank & concentrate his firepower, and possibly pre-emptively attack with his Company squad & Chaplain: fire pistols and charge, don't let the Orks get their Furious Charge in. Or use it as a counter-assault unit.

Tactical Terminators suck against Orks of any creed, no worries there.

If we just ignored the Deff Koptas, it would help him a lot. When I was a new player, I was super worried about fliers. Then I realized they aren't that powerful. He needs to come to the same conclusion.

It's the general, not the army. Tell him to use his cover, fall back and shoot at one squad at a time. Ignore the choppers as theyre usually ineffective.

That is an odd DA army, no bikes and no WS ally, no grav centurions , no dakka banner. So I would say the list isn't helping the general.

Makumba- it looks like most of his Dark Angels figures are Dark Vengeance aquisitions

TimmyTheNerd wrote:
Anyway, he's insisting that the forces he's fielding aren't good enough and wants to field 1 Intterogator Chaplain, both Tactical squads, 1 ravenwing biker squad and 1 terminator squad. I've been reluctant since I currently have nothing that can kill terminators.

So, is the problem the list or the general?

Based on the quoted sentence...the problem may be that you don't want to lose.

you fled the battlefield for womenfolk! what a great commander you are..

Make the armies unequal. Give him more. It lets him win more easily and gives you a change to really flex your tactics/strategies/warthinkin'. Of course, make sure he knows they're unequal. =D

Let him field the terminators. Make the points equal (or give him a slight handicap). And give him some pointers on deployment. He should be in a corner, as far from you as he can get, with good line of sight to likely approaches. Ignore the Deffkoptas and charge them with a combat squad when they get close, to tie them up.

Okay, so I showed him the DA codex and allowed him to make his own army list:

MY LIST:
-HQs-
*Warlord* Warboss <119>
-Da Dead Shiny Shoota
-Power Klaw
-Da Finkin' Kap
-Cybork Body
-Git Finda
-'Eavy Armour
-Boss Pole

Warboss <99>
-Headwoppa's Killchoppa
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Cybork Body
-'Eavy Armour

-Troops-
(10 Orks) Boyz Mob <115>
-Boss Nob, no upgrades
-Boy with Big Shoota
-All models have 'Eavy Armour

(10 Orks) Boyz Mob <75>
-Boss Nob, no upgrades
-Boy with Big Shoota

-Fast Attack-
(3 Koptas) Deffkopta Squadrun <90>
-All models have Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas

Total: 498 Points

THE LIST HE MADE HIMSELF:
-HQ-
Interrogator Chaplain <125>
-Plasma Pistol

-Troops-
(5 Man) Tactical Marine Squad <70>

(5 Man) Tactical Marine Squad <85>
-1 Marine with Missile Launcher

-Elites-
(5 Man) Deathwing Terminator Squad <220>

Total: 500 Points

He won because I have nothing that could kill his terminators, which he parked on the relic, prevent his side and my side from being able to capture the relic. Then he got first blood and he killed my Warlord.

Keep in mind, I don't own any more orks beyond what I used in my list, so I literally own nothing that can even pose a threat to his Terminators.

The relics a funny sort of mission. Try another few missions and see how you both get on.
Did your friend have more fun this time?

Yeah, he had more fun. He then threw him winning in my face.

Hmm, thats not very nice :(
Well try a few more games and see how you both get on.
At least you have a bit more of a challenge and he wont be bored getting smashed every game.

TimmyTheNerd wrote:
Yeah, he had more fun. He then threw him winning in my face.

I don't want to come off as rude, but it seems to me you're pretty angry about losing. Try a few more games, see if you can win at all and don't let the results get to you. It's just a game, both players should have fun with it!

As a tip, try to keep your warbosses alive as they can actually kill termies pretty well. The PK one will attack at the same time as they do while the other one will attack before them and thanks to Rending and Decapitating Strike, you should be able to get a few termies before they get to swing back.

If you really can't/don't want to invest in more orks, you could always try ignoring the termies altogether. Just destroy the rest of his forces or play the objective and get the win like that.

When you do expand your forces, add more PKs and make the boys mobs bigger. Consider dropping the killchoppa boss for a painboy - the painboy will gran the unit he's with a 5+ FNP, which is a save you can take after your 6+ armor or cover save!

Good luck with your future games.

TimmyTheNerd wrote:He won because I have nothing that could kill his terminators... I literally own nothing that can even pose a threat to his Terminators.

Uhh... what?

Let's see...

TimmyTheNerd wrote:
-HQs-
*Warlord* Warboss <119>
-Da Dead Shiny Shoota
-Power Klaw
-Da Finkin' Kap
-Cybork Body
-Git Finda
-'Eavy Armour
-Boss Pole

Warboss <99>
-Headwoppa's Killchoppa
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Cybork Body
-'Eavy Armour

-Troops-
(10 Orks) Boyz Mob <115>
-Boss Nob, no upgrades
-Boy with Big Shoota
-All models have 'Eavy Armour

(10 Orks) Boyz Mob <75>
-Boss Nob, no upgrades
-Boy with Big Shoota

-Fast Attack-
(3 Koptas) Deffkopta Squadrun <90>
-All models have Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas

Yup, all of that can kill terminators. Every single model.

Even your puny boyz squads should be able to pick off a terminator a turn, even if the rest of your army does absolutely nothing.

 Ailaros wrote:

TimmyTheNerd wrote:He won because I have nothing that could kill his terminators... I literally own nothing that can even pose a threat to his Terminators.

Uhh... what?

Let's see...

TimmyTheNerd wrote:
-HQs-
*Warlord* Warboss <119>
-Da Dead Shiny Shoota
-Power Klaw
-Da Finkin' Kap
-Cybork Body
-Git Finda
-'Eavy Armour
-Boss Pole

Warboss <99>
-Headwoppa's Killchoppa
-Kombi-Skorcha
-Cybork Body
-'Eavy Armour

-Troops-
(10 Orks) Boyz Mob <115>
-Boss Nob, no upgrades
-Boy with Big Shoota
-All models have 'Eavy Armour

(10 Orks) Boyz Mob <75>
-Boss Nob, no upgrades
-Boy with Big Shoota

-Fast Attack-
(3 Koptas) Deffkopta Squadrun <90>
-All models have Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas

Yup, all of that can kill terminators. Every single model.

Even your puny boyz squads should be able to pick off a terminator a turn, even if the rest of your army does absolutely nothing.

2+ Armour Save. Yeah. Even Boyz can take out a terminator. You totally got me there.

Also, if I seem angry about losing it's because he slapped my models off the table (nearly breaking them) saying: "Get that s**t out of my yard, b***h!"
So yeah...I'm angry.

Oh, then I understand. That was definitely a jerk move by him.

PKs are AP2 and the killchoppa has Rending, so rolling a 6 to wound makes it AP2 as well. Coupled with the Instant Death from the Decapitating Strike rule and with good rolling, you'll make some dead termies.

Boys can also kill termies, but only in really large numbers where you force your opponent to take a bunch of armor saves.

Wait, PK is AP2? >_< I think my codex has a misprint then. Lists them as AP3.

TimmyTheNerd wrote:
Wait, PK is AP2? >_< I think my codex has a misprint then. Lists them as AP3.

Yup, PKs are AP2!

Oi. Okay, maybe now I'll have a better shot now that I know that.

TimmyTheNerd wrote:

2+ Armour Save. Yeah. Even Boyz can take out a terminator. You totally got me there.

7 shoota boyz should statistically be able to kill 1 Terminator if they get the charge.

7 boyz * 3 attacks each = 21 attacks.

BS4 on both sides means statistically half of them hit, so average 10 and a half hits.

S4 on the charge divides that in half again to 5.25 wounds.

1/6 for a fail means on average 1 dead terminator (0.875 failed saves).

A single terminator can deal at most 2 attacks back (unless the sarge gets more?), and the boyz hit first except for the sarge.

Terminators go down to weight of fire, do t worry about AP2 worry about throwing shots at them.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
Terminators go down to weight of fire, do t worry about AP2 worry about throwing shots at them.

To be fair, Ork shooting requires a heck of alot more orks then he currently has to be even remotely effective against terminators. Theoretically, it would take all 20 ork boys shooting to remove a single terminator. Now throw in close combat with those same 20 ork boyz and you will come out much better. Problem is getting two 10-man squads in charge range against tactical termies without taking significant casualties.

Ok...so player A was making both lists for the game and always beat player B. Player B becomes tired of the lists he's being provided with, wins with his own, and overzealously thumps his chest (and Player A's models) while doing so.

Can't say I blame player B for being so happy, but this sounds like the interaction between two 12 year olds.

This does bring to the table a new fun way of playing 40k. IRONMAN 40K! When you defeat your opponents models, you get to smash them to pieces. I can't even imagine the vast amount of Youtube subscriptions a channel of IRONMAN batreps would yield.

TimmyTheNerd wrote:

2+ Armour Save. Yeah. Even Boyz can take out a terminator. You totally got me there.

Also, if I seem angry about losing it's because he slapped my models off the table (nearly breaking them) saying: "Get that s**t out of my yard, b***h!"
So yeah...I'm angry.

You really should choose your friends more carefully.