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Inspired by this thread which keeps going off on a slight tangent, I figured I would start a new thread to discuss this topic.

Please note that the following arguments are abbreviated for the sake of the opening post. Posters are free to add on as needed.

Side A claims that the rules for targeting requires you to check range and line of sight. Furthermore, the rules clarify that if a unit is not in sight you cannot target it. However, no such restriction is placed on range.

Side B claims that you target a unit to shoot at, and, naturally, you cannot shoot at a unit out of range.

This discussion is not about the practicality of doing so, but whether or not it is legal.

Voted Yes as the poll appears to be based on pure Rule as Written and not common sense.
However, I want it on record that I believe the intent was to prove a weapon is in range prior to targeting and that it is completely stupid for 'Check Range' to lack such a Restriction....

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent.

It says you must check.

But it doesn't say you need to pick another target if your check fails.

RAW: wrong target, you must check, you checked, but it doesn't let you change the target

RAI: wrong target, you must check, and if it doesn't fit you have to pick another target

How do you change a poll? I would like to find out what peoples thoughts are RAW. I think it is safe to say the intent is that the unit must be in range.

Nevermind. Figured it out.

Morgoth,
The Rule does allow us to measure multiple Ranges before selecting a Target... the problem is that it does not stop us from selecting a Target that is out-of-range.

This should not normally be a proboem, as JD points out. However, it becomes a real issue when rules force a target to be considered or selected based on the targeting rules (such as the Eldar Grenade Pack for the Swooping Hawks).

RaW, I agree the logic flow does not actually state you have to be in range. They are very specific about weapon ranges and what to do if some unit weapons cannot reach the target, but it never actually states what to do if none of the weapons can reach.
I'm not sure I even want to bring this one up to my club as it hasnt become an issue yet, but I'm 100% sure it'll be houseruled with RaI, that if you cant shoot it you cannot target it.

Yes, you can target a unit that is out of range.

The rules require you to check the range and LOS, but only disallow the unit from being selected as a target if it is out of LOS.

Let's put in some actual RaW to back position B:

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.

Emphasis mine.

Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
(examples)
When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit. Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.

"Any weapon(...)out of range (...)cannot shoot."
Measure up all of your weapons. You are out of range with all of them. How can you abide by the rules:
"choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at"

Conclusion:
You cannot shoot if all your weapons are out of range: you cannot choose an enemy to shoot at.(out of range)

Prove a Shooting Attack can not legally consist of 0 Shots.
What happens if the application of a Special Rule prevents the only weapon in range from being fired after a Target has been selected?
What if we Target a Unit that is in range of one weapon and then evoke permission not to fire that particular Weapon during a larger step?

All the Rules you have quoted show is that we will have foreknowledge that, on reaching a later stage in the sequence, we will have no dice to make a roll with. If there was a Restriction stating that this foreknowledge makes it impossible for us to target a Unit, such as found in Line-of-Sight, we would not be having this discussion. That sad simple truth is that the Rules for Choosing a Target to Shoot at, the portion after 'to do so' being instructions on how to choose a target to shoot at, does not inform us what to do with a 'successful' or 'failed' Range Check. Without such instructions, more importantly Restrictions on what can be declared at this time, the while 'check range' is a meaingless exercise because we don't know what to do with the Results. It jumps from gathering the results to declaring a target, and in doing so grants permission to target something that is out-of-range.

Permission has been granted, now a Restriction needs to be quoted... and not just 'it's common sense that we need to shoot in order to shoot at something.'

If for example, you were choosing a unit as a target that was 8.5" away and the only shooting attack you had was an 8" grenade attack, what is preventing you from choosing them as your target?

This might only matter if you had a special rule that said you gain preferred enemy against a target you shot at in the shooting phase during assault.

Just so I can answer this poll correctly is the argument that you can "target" something that is out of range of all your guns but you still cannot "shoot" at something out of range of all your guns?

Yes, no shots will be generated in this situation.

JinxDragon wrote:
Voted Yes as the poll appears to be based on pure Rule as Written and not common sense.
However, I want it on record that I believe the intent was to prove a weapon is in range prior to targeting and that it is completely stupid for 'Check Range' to lack such a Restriction....

+1

It is a paradox.

You declare a target if you can shoot, but you can't shoot because you are out of range.

Who Can Shoot?
"Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are ... This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can
sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot - this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."

CHOOSE A TARGET
"Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at."

Check Range
"Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot."

Declare target, check range, out of range, can't shoot, can't declare target because you can't shoot. As soon as you declare something that is out of range as a target it immediately cannot be declared a target.

Bart: No way, she's faking! If Lisa stays home, I stay home.
Lisa: If Bart stays home, I'm going to school.
Bart: Fine, then... Wait a minute... If Lisa goes to school, then I go to school, but then Lisa stays home, so I stay home, so Lisa goes to school...
Marge: Lisa, don't confuse your brother like that.

Common sense states such a paradox shouldn't be possible, but do the Rules state that it shouldn't be possible?
Someone still has to prove that a Shooting attack with 0 Shots is illegal by default, and explain to me what happens if we end up in those situations anyway....

JinxDragon wrote:
Prove a Shooting Attack can not legally consist of 0 Shots.
What happens if the application of a Special Rule prevents the only weapon in range from being fired after a Target has been selected?
What if we Target a Unit that is in range of one weapon and then evoke permission not to fire that particular Weapon during a larger step?

All the Rules you have quoted show is that we will have foreknowledge that, on reaching a later stage in the sequence, we will have no dice to make a roll with. If there was a Restriction stating that this foreknowledge makes it impossible for us to target a Unit, such as found in Line-of-Sight, we would not be having this discussion. That sad simple truth is that the Rules for Choosing a Target to Shoot at, the portion after 'to do so' being instructions on how to choose a target to shoot at, does not inform us what to do with a 'successful' or 'failed' Range Check. Without such instructions, more importantly Restrictions on what can be declared at this time, the while 'check range' is a meaingless exercise because we don't know what to do with the Results. It jumps from gathering the results to declaring a target, and in doing so grants permission to target something that is out-of-range.

Permission has been granted, now a Restriction needs to be quoted... and not just 'it's common sense that we need to shoot in order to shoot at something.'

The error in your argument is that you believe the rule i quoted ("choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at") is the permission to simply "Shooting attack (with 0 shots)".

It is not. It has an inherent restriction, in that, it is permission to target something you can "shoot at". Not the broad permission to fire.
If you have no weapons in range, you can't "shoot at".
The rule has been bolded for emphasis.

"choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at"

Can you choose an enemy you can't shoot at?

Yes.

This is the Rule for how we go about choosing an enemy to shoot at so let us break it down again:
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, - Timing Restraint telling us when these instructions are followed
choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. - What we do when the above Timing Restraint is met, if left there it would let us select any Unit to shoot at
To do so - An important line that no one ever seems willing to address: What do these three words mean if not detailing that the following instructions are how we go about choosing an enemy to shoot at?
you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting - A Requirement to physically check the Range of a Target, but one which fails to inform us what to do if we find the value is X or Y which is the underlining problem with this Rule
Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units - Permission to do this multiple times before making a decision, in order to prevent us being in a 'can not target, can not re-measure' situation
before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. - a Requirement to decide to shoot at just one Unit and inform our opponent which Unit that is
You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat. - Patched on Restriction against targeting a Unit that is Locked in Combat

It is the common sense side that wants to remove the words 'to shoot at' and hold them up in a vacuum, creating a Restriction in doing so which states if we can not shoot at it then we can not choose it as a target. However if we look at the whole sentence we find those words are directly linked to instructions telling us how to go about choosing a target to shoot at and does not inform us in any way, shape or form how we go about 'shooting at' something. That is addressed in other Rules, which includes the Check Range instructions that really should have contained the Restriction that common sense is trying to create. As we are discussing nothing more then Rule as Written, the entirety of this Rule does allow us to nominate a Target that is out of Range, so we need some other Rule to make Shooting attacks of 0 Shots illegal by default.

I have also repetitively pointed out that Special Rules and other player choices can also force us into situations where 0 is the maximum number of shots the Unit will be firing, even with Weapons in Range....
So what do we do in those situations?

Yes. Step 2 of the Shooting Sequence is where you select a target, and the only restriction is LOS. Step 3 is where you actually fire for weapons, and any models who are out of range cannot fire (in this case, none can fire).

I'm not going to go into how this applies to the Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack, besides saying: be careful when applying the conclusions of this thread to that one. This thread is answering a very limited question.

Read under check range. It will explain it for you. You cannot shoot a target your not in range to, that sums it up.

Lungpickle, the problem is that the restriction from range checking falls under choosing a weapon to shoot with, which is after you nominate a target.

I am going off memory this time, so account for possible error there, but doesn't that Restriction focus on which Weapons can be fired?
A Restriction preventing a Weapon from generating a Shot is vastly different then a Restriction preventing a player from nominating an Enemy Unit to be shot at.

Yes. I think they wrote it this way so that you could use things like searchlights on targets that are far away, independent of whether you have a flame thrower, a heavy bolter, or no weapon at all.

 madric wrote:
Yes. I think they wrote it this way so that you could use things like searchlights on targets that are far away, independent of whether you have a flame thrower, a heavy bolter, or no weapon at all.

After reading and re-reading I think this is very correct. Initially I was very much on one side but after reading it more I see how being a "target" is very different then actually being able to "shoot" at said "target"

Still wondering if anyone on the side of common sense has an answer for this puzzle:

Only one Weapon is in Range to the intended target
A Special Rule prevents that weapon from generating Shots
This Rule triggers after a target is selected
What happens?

 BlackTalos wrote:

"choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at"

Can you choose an enemy you can't shoot at?

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

"choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at"

Can you choose an enemy you can't shoot at?

You're choosing a unit that they want to shoot at. It just turns out that they can't, because they are out of range.


I can choose to buy a ferrari. I can't actually do so, because I have no money.Nothing stops me from making my choice... I just can't follow through with it.

Metaphor works good enough to give it +1.

Still waiting an answer, what happens if the only Weapon in Range ends up being generating 0 Shots before To Hit's are even rolled?

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

"choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at"

Can you choose an enemy you can't shoot at?

You're choosing a unit that they want to shoot at. It just turns out that they can't, because they are out of range.


I can choose to buy a ferrari. I can't actually do so, because I have no money.Nothing stops me from making my choice... I just can't follow through with it.

rigeld2 wrote:


That's not what the rule actually says though. You're not choosing what you want to shoot at, you're choosing what you are going to shoot at.
You're inserting a word and completely changing the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Still wondering if anyone on the side of common sense has an answer for this puzzle:

Only one Weapon is in Range to the intended target
A Special Rule prevents that weapon from generating Shots
This Rule triggers after a target is selected
What happens?

It's an invalid shooting attack - you've broken the rules.
For example, a Chapter Master whose only shooting weapon is the Orbital Bombardment is embarked on a Rhino. The Rhino moves 9", forcing Snap Shots on the embarked unit.

Spoiler:

NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

I nominate the Chapter Master.

Spoiler:

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.

I checked the range - they're in range. I checked LoS, it's good as well. I decide to shoot at a unit and declare it to my opponent.

Spoiler:

SELECT A WEAPON
Whilst some units are comprised entirely of models with the same weaponry, many units are equipped with a variety of different weapons or contain models that are themselves equipped with more than one gun. When firing with a unit, completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time before moving onto any differently named weapons (see Select Another Weapon, below).
First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with. The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase. All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon.

I select the Orbital Bombardment but cannot shoot it. Meaning that when I decided to shoot those horrible Eldar Jetbikes I made an illegal choice, because it was not legal for me to make a shooting attack.

Remember, to make a shooting attack you must be able to complete all 7 steps (or have the ability to ignore/skip a step via rules):

Spoiler:

Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

Good post, but you made two mistakes.

First, Step 2 (Choose a Target) is completed before step 3 (Select a Weapon), and therefore doesn't care if the target is in range of any given weapon. You are making the assumption that the target has to be in range, but in range of what? their bolters? grenades? The heavy weapon choice?
Unfortunately, RaW doesn't tell you to do anything with the range, or to apply it to a weapon, or anything, only that you check how far it is from your unit to the target unit.
Only after the target is selected do we move to step 3 where we finally get to use the knowledge of range to target. Even then, the only thing step 3 says is that if the target is out of range of a given weapon, you cannot fire that given weapon, not that you go back to step 2 and re-target a new unit in range.

Second mistake, just because you cannot do something in a step doesn't mean you don't complete it. If you cannot allocate wounds because you didn't cause any, it doesn't mean you didn't complete step 6 and you get to go back and do it all again. Each step is done in order, including targeting (step 2) and shooting only with weapons in range (step 3), successful or no.

 rookshunter wrote:
Good post, but you made two mistakes.

First, Step 2 (Choose a Target) is completed before step 3 (Select a Weapon), and therefore doesn't care if the target is in range of any given weapon. You are making the assumption that the target has to be in range, but in range of what? their bolters? grenades? The heavy weapon choice?
Unfortunately, RaW doesn't tell you to do anything with the range, or to apply it to a weapon, or anything, only that you check how far it is from your unit to the target unit.
Only after the target is selected do we move to step 3 where we finally get to use the knowledge of range to target. Even then, the only thing step 3 says is that if the target is out of range of a given weapon, you cannot fire that given weapon, not that you go back to step 2 and re-target a new unit in range.

It does tell you to do things with the range. "to shoot at" means "to make a shooting attack at" agreed?
"choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at" "deciding which one to shoot at" both of these statements (in the Choose a Target step) require a shooting attack to happen.

Second mistake, just because you cannot do something in a step doesn't mean you don't complete it. If you cannot allocate wounds because you didn't cause any, it doesn't mean you didn't complete step 6 and you get to go back and do it all again. Each step is done in order, including targeting (step 2) and shooting only with weapons in range (step 3), successful or no.

Citation required - I'm not saying you get a chance to "try again". I'm saying that if you can't complete all 7 steps with a given attack (as in, it's completely impossible, JD's assertion that 0 weapon shooting attacks can exist for example) it's breaking the rules.
You are required to select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. Selecting "no weapon" isn't a choice, and selecting a weapon that cannot fire is an illegal choice.