Redoing Sniper Rules for 40k.

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**MagicJuggler**

Sniping has always felt iffy at best in 40k, outright silly at worst.
3rd/4th ed: BS didn't matter. Sniping was a flat 2+ to hit (unless you were Orks using Looted Weapons with a 4+ to hit), and 4+ to wound. Other than taking a unit of Kroot Hunters from Codex: Kroot Mercenaries, or using Eldar Pathfinders, there weren't any real reasons to use snipers.
5th ed: Back to regular BS, but "rending." Still mostly pointless.
6th ed: "Precision Shot on a 6". This leads to a perverse side effect where sniping is *not* based on the skill of an individual marksman, but the ability to throw lots of shots with the Sniper Rule. It becomes even sillier when abilities enabling rerolls to-hit get involved, as rerolls on snipers with low ballistic skill give you more rerolls (and more chances to land precision shot).

Proposal:
-Reduce the number of units with access to Precision Shot. Remove units that are "20-something grunts with Sniper."
-When firing a weapon with the Sniper special rule against an enemy unit, make *two* rolls to-hit.
-If *both* rolls succeed, you pick out an enemy model of your choice.
-If only one roll succeeds, you hit an enemy model as determined by normal rules for hit allocation.

Implication:
-Sniper weapons improve accuracy, but are only as efficient as the marksmen wielding them. Higher BS results not only in more hits, but more hits against enemy models of choice.

**SGTPozy**

This would slow the game down which is probably not the best idea. By the way, why do you hate Kroot snipers so much? This is all clearly directed at them?

**MagicJuggler**

Currently, the snipers which actually snipe in 40k either:
a) Have special rules allowing them to override base rules (Vindicares, Pathfinders)
b) Fire *so* many shots, that something will hit.

I used Kroot as an example. If you want a more offensive example, consider the following:

Back when 6th first came out and before major FAQ'ing, a far more offensive example was that because *all* characters got Precision Shot, and all Nobs were characters, this meant that *all* Nob Bikers had Precision Shot. On TL Dakkaguns. With BS 2, this meant that although they only hit on rolls of 5, half those shots would be Precision Shots.

Basically, it's a mechanical annoyance, the idea that the *lower* your skill, the higher the ratio of hits you attain will actually be Precision Shots.

**AnomanderRake**

I'd honestly rather take my cue from the Vindicare since he's the only Sniper weapon in 40k that's really ever been worth it. Sniper rifles should be upgrade weapons at a rate of one per five like they are in the Guard book (possibly two per five on Eldar Rangers); they roll to hit at normal BS, but every shot is always a Precision Shot, flat 4+ to Wound and AP3 Rending. Remove the spammability and make each individual shot more likely to just let you pick a model and remove it.

Sniper rifles as an upgrade weapon might need to go from 5pts to 10pts in some situations, and you'd need to put together non-sniper Ranger and Deathmark models (or make them not snipers), and Tau Sniper Drone Teams would need some tweaks (no more three shots per model at 24" with an Ethereal, they've already got better range than normal peoples' sniper rifles), but it'd make them do what they're intended to do better.

**Mr Morden**

The worst thing fro me is that many Snipers are presently in units - which is stupid in terms of how they work in terms of real life snipers and the fluff. They should all be units of one or two models.....

I'd like to see them as deadily somehow eveb if they become rare and expensive so Precsion Shot and Rending would be good.

**AnomanderRake**

Mr Morden wrote:
The worst thing fro me is that many Snipers are presently in units - which is stupid in terms of how they work in terms of real life snipers and the fluff. They should all be units of one or two models.....

I'd like to see them as deadily somehow eveb if they become rare and expensive so Precsion Shot and Rending would be good.

I personally liked the Dawn of War 2 Ranger units that had a sniper with a couple of guys as backup. If Scouts and Rangers were capped at five models with two snipers, Kroot had a 'Kroot Headhunters' unit in a different slot (maybe Fast Attack as a semi-parallel to Pathfinders) and they were capped at five models but had two snipers and regular Kroot couldn't get snipers, stuff like that, you might be able to simulate that idea better within GW's unit structure.

**MagicJuggler**

I remember back in 3rd ed Codex: Catachans, you could also take 1-3 independent Catachan Snipers as a single Elites Choice as well.

Also, the "2d6, both hit=precision" was more-or-less grabbed from Stargrunt 2. It wouldn't work for *units of snipers* and in fact, Snipers in SGII were considered "Solo" models anyway.

**Mr Morden**

MagicJuggler wrote:
I remember back in 3rd ed Codex: Catachans, you could also take 1-3 independent Catachan Snipers as a single Elites Choice as well.

Yeah should be the same for all Snipers really - and also give the option of Astartes Snipers - thinking Raven Guard and others...................

Thats what mine are being painted as anyway

**mr. peasant**

Mr Morden wrote:
The worst thing fro me is that many Snipers are presently in units - which is stupid in terms of how they work in terms of real life snipers and the fluff. They should all be units of one or two models.....

The way I figure is that the "sniper" special rule is simply a generic, catch-all term. A lot of them are sharpshooters - who still use sniper rifles all the same.

**Mr Morden**

hmm not really how they are shown as models or in fact those units are described in the fluff?

**mr. peasant**

Mr Morden wrote:
hmm not really how they are shown as models or in fact those units are described in the fluff?

Not sure I understand what you mean...

As for coming up with a better Sniping mechanic, what about simply incorporating it into the "To hit" dice roll? Where a regular hit requires a combined BS + D6 roll of 7+, "Precision shot" could simply require a BS + D6 roll of 9+. Meaning, a model with BS 3 needs a 4+ to hit and a 6 to snipe while a model with BS 4 requires a 3+ to hit and a 5+ to snipe. And for models with BS 6+, they still need a minimum of a 3+ to snipe with no chance should they reroll.

**koooaei**

Rolling 2 dice and counting something is not the best thing right now within the larger scale battles. And in the end it's just:
bs3 - 0.25 chance for precision
bs4 - 0.44 chance for precision
etc.

If you want it to scale - just add something like a -2 mechanics. A hit on a BS-2 is a precision shot.
So that:
bs3 - 6+ precision
bs4 - 5+ precision
bs5 - 4+ precision
etc.

**mr. peasant**

koooaei wrote:
If you want it to scale - just add something like a -2 mechanics. A hit on a BS-2 is a precision shot.
So that:
bs3 - 6+ precision
bs4 - 5+ precision
bs5 - 4+ precision
etc.

Pretty much what I said. So, I completely agree.

**Frozen Ocean**

They need more range (36'' is just silly) and more power. I'd prefer to keep the ones in units as units, but if teams are a problem, one or two "snipers" backed up by marksmen with DMRs would probably work.

I do like the -2 BS thing.

**koooaei**

mr. peasant wrote:

As for coming up with a better Sniping mechanic, what about simply incorporating it into the "To hit" dice roll? Where a regular hit requires a combined BS + D6 roll of 7+, "Precision shot" could simply require a BS + D6 roll of 9+. Meaning, a model with BS 3 needs a 4+ to hit and a 6 to snipe while a model with BS 4 requires a 3+ to hit and a 5+ to snipe. And for models with BS 6+, they still need a minimum of a 3+ to snipe with no chance should they reroll.

Yep, i'm proposing the exact same thing. That's just me posting that stuff in the wrong place first than copy-cutting and entering here before having read what's new

**Eihnlazer**

I would like the sniper rule to be changed to this:

Sniper: Models and Weapons with this rule gain +1 BS as long as they have not moved, always wound on a 4+ and count as AP2 when a 6 is rolled to wound. On a to hit roll of a 6 the hit is a precision shot. When rolling to pen againgst a vehicle, a roll of a 6 causes a penetrating hit with no AP but does not remove a hull point.

**koooaei**

Eihnlazer wrote:
I would like the sniper rule to be changed to this:

Sniper: Models and Weapons with this rule gain +1 BS as long as they have not moved

Gitfindas for everyone! It won't even be unique, so good thing and quite logical.

**Frozen Ocean**

I'd give them a Strength value to override "always wound on a 4+" if better. I find it a little funny to think that a Space Marine and a grot have equal chances of surviving a high-powered rifle shot.

**Co'tor Shas**

That makes sense. SM ones would probably be S4, IG S3, TE S5, ect.

**pelicaniforce**

mr. peasant wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
As for coming up with a better Sniping mechanic, what about simply incorporating it into the "To hit" dice roll?

I think part of the OP is that sniper rifles should improve the chance to hit (rolling two dice has the effect of master-crafting or twin-linking), since a bs3 sniper might be more accurate than a bs3 rifleman, and since your low-volume shooting would benefit from accuracy. I don't think it is very important.

koooaei wrote:Rolling 2 dice and counting something is not the best thing right now within the larger scale battles. And in the end it's just:
bs3 - 0.25 chance for precision
bs4 - 0.44 chance for precision
etc.

If you want it to scale - just add something like a -2 mechanics. A hit on a BS-2 is a precision shot.
So that:
bs3 - 6+ precision
bs4 - 5+ precision
bs5 - 4+ precision
etc.

I think the important difference is that while "BS-2" also "scales," it has many fewer precision shots. In contrast to a poster asserting that this would "slow the game," precision shots really speed things up by bypassing most of the wound allocation process. Also, when it comes to good uses of time, I think that separating normal bs hits from bs-2 precision hits should net you more precision hits than that. "bs3 roll twice" is 1.5 times as good as bs3-2, and bs4 roll twice if 33% better than bs4-2. I think for both of these reasons that rolling to hit a second time is a better use of time and rules than bs-2.

Frozen Ocean wrote:I'd give them a Strength value to override "always wound on a 4+" if better. I find it a little funny to think that a Space Marine and a grot have equal chances of surviving a high-powered rifle shot.

The primary use of snipers for most editions has revolved around "always wound on a 4+" to kill Monstrous Creatures. Now that there are more scaries than just Wraithlords and Tyranids, that's pretty appealing.

I think everyone agrees with you that "riptide killer" does not really hit the sniper role squarely., but that does means they need a different strong role like frequent precision shots, for which you need something better than bs-2.

S values for sniper rifles are fine, but marine scouts, ratlings, and eldar rangers appear to often use needlers, which are always poison weapons in non-sniper versions anyway as seen in the Eversor and Fabius Bile.