Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets a little peeved about the number of cannon chapters that don't have really obvious ties to any one legion, so GW tacks on the Unknown Origin/ Primarch thing at the end of their little blurb. So, let's discuss the all the 'unknowns' here.

Unknown Chapters
Astral Claws-- officially unknown, but the chapter tactics listed on forge world sources talk about White Scars-esque Bike Spam

Blood Ravens-- possibly successors of the Thousand Sons,what with all their love for knowledge and the unusual number of librarians they produce

Minotaurs-- Notoriously stubborn and heroic, but also dangerously reckless. Perhaps an extreme offshoot from Imperial Fist stock to the point that the true IFs don't want to associate with them?

Red Scorpions-- Everyone knows the Ultramarines are all about adherence to the Codex Astartes and genetic purity, but several orders of magnitude down that line in the positive direction are the Red Scorpions; Possibly successors of the Emperor's children?

Unconfirmed Chapters
Charcharodons (Space Sharks)-- supposedly Raven Guard Ssuccessor Chapter, but the whole bit where they rip and tear things apart with chainswords that they equip entire tactical squads with smacks of a World Eaters' Successor to me. A modern loyalist chapter with unstable gene-seed and questionable or extreme tactics? Raven Guard is too good too a cover story for me.
*EDIT: Space Sharks are most likely Raven Guard Successors, as pointed out by many posts, but Loyalist Night Lords are an interesting proposal.*

This list isn't complete, because I don't know about all the obscure chapters out there. Post any you know about!

It is tempting to relate a Chapter's current beliefs and behavior to what their origin might be but this may not be accurate at all. For example, the Mortifactors are descended from the Ultramarines Legion but they have diverged completely over the years to the point of being unrecognizable compared to the Ultramarines Chapter.

Iracundus wrote:
It is tempting to relate a Chapter's current beliefs and behavior to what their origin might be but this may not be accurate at all. For example, the Mortifactors are descended from the Ultramarines Legion but they have diverged completely over the years to the point of being unrecognizable compared to the Ultramarines Chapter.

True, but for every chapter like the one you cite, there are a dozen who follow their parent chapter to the T. In ten thousand years, a lot can happen; I don't dispute that. But 40k lore is written in broad strokes like a high school history textbook. Ten pages may be devoted to the roman empire in my public High school textbook, but entire careers are devoted to studying the finer details glossed over in those ten pages. That is the reason I love 40k; if I want to learn about a space marine chapter, I can read the 1-paragraph stub on the 40k wikia site and call it a day, or I can go to B&N and buy a whole novel about one battle they fought

That the Carcharadons are Raven Guard is subtly supported by Horus Heresy: Extermination, wherein there is a Raven Guard Terminator with Carcharodon style markings described as "derived from the decorative arts of the Lycaen slave-miners, a constant reminder to the bearer and his peers of the Legion's roots."

The purpose of GW putting "Unknown" for these chapter's origins is explicitly to foster speculation like you've put forth here.

In universe: Its a convenient coverup for the Imperium secretly using Traitor geneseed to found new chapters. Or for a chapter made of loyalist splinters of Traitor legions to hide a fact which would definitely lead to them being declared traitors.

 Gashrog wrote:
That the Carcharadons are Raven Guard is subtly supported by Horus Heresy: Extermination, wherein there is a Raven Guard Terminator with Carcharodon style markings described as "derived from the decorative arts of the Lycaen slave-miners, a constant reminder to the bearer and his peers of the Legion's roots."

On the off-side, Sharks don't fight like Ravens or Eaters. They fight like Night Lords.

They use fear and shock and awe to win quick victories, and when they can't, they use the most vile tactics possible to win.

Raven Guard use stealth and guerilla warfare. Sharks don't.

World Eaters are hot-blooded and savage. Sharks aren't.

Night Lords rely on fear and rational tactics to carry the day, not caring about the consequences of what it took. Sharks are cold and calculating. They aren't hot-blooded. One of the scariest things about them is the silence they have when fighting. Cold and dark, like sharks. They don't hide, though. They butcher civilians to force their enemies to come to them. They kill allies to make victory easier.

Like Night Lords.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:
That the Carcharadons are Raven Guard is subtly supported by Horus Heresy: Extermination, wherein there is a Raven Guard Terminator with Carcharodon style markings described as "derived from the decorative arts of the Lycaen slave-miners, a constant reminder to the bearer and his peers of the Legion's roots."

On the off-side, Sharks don't fight like Ravens or Eaters. They fight like Night Lords.

They use fear and shock and awe to win quick victories, and when they can't, they use the most vile tactics possible to win.

Raven Guard use stealth and guerilla warfare. Sharks don't.

World Eaters are hot-blooded and savage. Sharks aren't.

Night Lords rely on fear and rational tactics to carry the day, not caring about the consequences of what it took. Sharks are cold and calculating. They aren't hot-blooded. One of the scariest things about them is the silence they have when fighting. Cold and dark, like sharks. They don't hide, though. They butcher civilians to force their enemies to come to them. They kill allies to make victory easier.

Like Night Lords.

Sounds convincing.

On the other hand, any chapter can come to this. Since this approach is quite logical and effective. Though, requires complete lack of mercy.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Raven Guard use stealth and guerrilla warfare. Sharks don't.

Erm..

Imperial Armour 10 page 114:
"Tactically, during the Badab conflict, the Carcharadons operated almost exclusively as a rapid-strike force, disdaining any form of protracted engagement wherever possible, preferring to approach their targets either by extreme speed or by stealth."

Imperial Armour 10 page 117:
"Most tactical operations by the Chapter began with the use of small scouting forces and reconnaissance groups to infiltrate close to enemy positions to identify weak points and strategic targets of value, which once identified were subject to overwhelming surprise attack. The strike forces used to conduct these lightning attacks would deploy directly into the line by use of drop pods, Thunderhawks and other interface craft, and comprised a mixed force of Space Marine tactical, assault and support troops."

This is practically IDENTICAL to the description of the Raven Guards tactics in their Index Astartes article:
"The Raven Guard follows the dictates of the Codex Astartes closely, though they do differ in the tactical application of their troops. The Raven Guard depends heavily on Scout forces able to act alone for extended periods of time, and rapid reaction forces such as jump pack equipped assault troops. Quite commonly, they will deploy their tactical squads in Drop Pod manoeuvres or Thunderhawks in response to intelligence gathered by their Scouts."

 EmpNortonII wrote:
World Eaters are hot-blooded and savage. Sharks aren't.

Again with the erm:

Imperial Armour 10 page 115
"In character the individual Space Marines of the Chapter were observed to be very taciturn, cautious and watchful, but exhibiting marked change to violent bouts of extreme bloodlust in combat, hacking down or blasting apart their foes with wild abandon."

Which is why the Carcharadon's chapter tactics makes them subject to rage after they've wiped out and enemy in close combat.

Yeah IA 10 confirms they at the very least adhere to RG doctrine.

But more chomping

Side note: Sharks in real life go absolutely beserk AFTER the blood is spilt too, just like Carcharodons. FW really put a lot of effort into weaving anything remotely "shark-ish" where they could with that chapter.


...but yea, HH Book 3 really hits the sledgehammer home that they're probably Raven Guard after all, just as speculated by Imperial scholars. Sometimes in-universe speculation is correct, I guess.



As for Blood Ravens, there's a prophecy in the book Prospero Burns about some "ravens crying tears of blood for their lost master", and Magnus explicitly sends some Thousand Sons away who never learn of the burning of Prospero (and later on are shown to remain loyal). In addition, a Black Library short story has that oyalist Thousands Sons offshoot led by a guy named Arvida (who's name is very similar to a legendary Blood Ravens marine) who comes from the Corvidae cult of Thousand Sons, and spouts their "Knowledge is power. Guard it well" motto.

He's still active in the story too (appearing in Scars, one of the most recent HH books) so we'll probably see if he and his group does turn out to be the original Blood Ravens eventually.... hopefully.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Side note: Sharks in real life go absolutely beserk AFTER the blood is spilt too, just like Carcharodons. FW really put a lot of effort into weaving anything remotely "shark-ish" where they could with that chapter.

Yeah, the Space Sharks are far more of this, over-hammering of the Sharky Shark Shark Shark theme, rather than an indication of World Eaters geneseed.

If they were a GW proper chapter, I imagine they'd have Shark Flyers with Tooth Cannons.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Side note: Sharks in real life go absolutely beserk AFTER the blood is spilt too, just like Carcharodons. FW really put a lot of effort into weaving anything remotely "shark-ish" where they could with that chapter.

Yeah, the Space Sharks are far more of this, over-hammering of the Sharky Shark Shark Shark theme, rather than an indication of World Eaters geneseed.

If they were a GW proper chapter, I imagine they'd have Shark Flyers with Tooth Cannons.

And suddenly sharknado with rocket launchers pop into mind...

I don't know if I should shudder in horror or applaud in childish fantastical wonder...

I think the Carcharodons should have an upgrade for all their vehicles called "Shark Fin": This unit causes fear. And it should literally be a huge cardboard-looking fin on the top of the tank/dreadnought/flyer/titan/whathaveyou.

Carcharodons should have the 'Loan Sharks' special rule, which grants the 'Extortion' special rule if the Carcharodons are used as allies.

Chances are that they are Ultramarine successors and that some Adpetus Adminstratum scribe somewhere forgot to pencil in the source of the geneseed for these chapters on their official documents. That or the knowledge was lost over time by the individual Astartes due to Marines dying without bothering to pass down the information down to younger members.