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I quite like the Luna Wolves colours and the character Loken and I was considering making a 40k chapter.

According to the 'reliable' source that is wh40kwiki Loken declared himself a loyal Luna Wolf as opposed to being associated with the Son's of Horus and their heresy.

Is it possible that enough loyal, like minded Son's of Horus survived to create a probably understrength post-heresy Luna Wolves chapter?

Support and advise would be appreciated.

Thanks!

I imagine, due to the little number remaining after Istvaan III, if any at all, they would struggle to field a companies worth, let alone a chapter. They would also struggle to survive due to the I presume banning of making new marines with their 'tainted' gene seed. Also, any that did survive Istv III, I doubt they would have survived the fighting in the heresy unless they were with Garro.

Lastly, there is a good chance any significant numbers of survivors were either folded into other marine chapters, ala the rumour of one of the lost two chapters making up part of the Ultramarines or they may have just been discretely 'dealt' with by the High Lords eventually.

After all that though, it's your mind, your army and your game, and if you can create a decent fluff reason to shut up anyone who would scoff at the idea then all the power to you brother.

If the color scheme is what you care most about then I'd recommend going with the Wolves of Horus. They're a splinter group that longed for the days of the Luna Wolves and don't acknowledge Abaddon as Horus's successor.

Taffy17 wrote:
I quite like the Luna Wolves colours and the character Loken and I was considering making a 40k chapter.

According to the 'reliable' source that is wh40kwiki Loken declared himself a loyal Luna Wolf as opposed to being associated with the Son's of Horus and their heresy.

Is it possible that enough loyal, like minded Son's of Horus survived to create a probably understrength post-heresy Luna Wolves chapter?

Support and advise would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Sure. It's your chapter and fluff. Make it whatever you want it to be.

Could be a few survivors of Istvaan III or those who managed to escape the planet before the final stand (somehow), or possibly a small force of Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves that had been sent away by the Legion on some faraway mission long before the battle and just hadn't returned in time to be sent to their deaths by Horus, who assumed he could deal with them later. Maybe they were warned by Garro Plenty of confusion once the betrayal on Istvaan III started for some number of Loyalists to sneak away and escape (as a few others did).

Would by all likelihood be a very small chapter at the beginning, Barely clinging to existence but given a chance by the Imperium to redeem the memory of what they once were.

Might keep the name Luna Wolves (though not sure what the Imperium would make of that). Could consider a Chapter Name change in honor of Loken to something like "Cerberus Guard" or "Sons of Cerberus", though the latter might be too close to the "Sons of Horus" for their liking. Though perhaps they might take it up as a direct insult to Horus' memory. Colors could stay the same since you like those.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

There are still "Luna Wolves."

There are two things to consider. One of them is that they only get one chance. Like, what if the Imperial Fists, or just the leadership of the Imperial Fists and almost all of the chapter, but not one company, decided to become traitors for just a little while. Like, they would just sacrifice one planet to the gods of darkness, and then go back to being good.

What do you say to that? Why should I believe that they are done sacrificing planets, and that they won't feel like taking a break from their oaths again in a couple of centuries? What about that one loyal company, what is to stop eighty of those marines from turning a few years later, and just twenty remaining loyal? I don't think the Imperium really has time for this kind of head ache.

The other thing is that you should think about some of the similar bits of fluff. The World Eaters, the Thousand Sons, and the Night Lords "turned" at the heresy, but they didn't really do anything differently. The World Eaters were always fundamentally Khornate, there was just a time when they didn't know what that was, and they sort of happened to fight for the Imperium. The Luna Wolves were also the strongest/coolest/most victorious of the legions, and that is a fundamentally chaotic position. The basic bargain is that chaos gives you muscles, wings, cool swords, a palace, and slaves, that is you get to win at life, but when you die your soul enters eternal torment.

The way to be "good," is to do the opposite, which is giving up your own life and sacrificing your own glory for the benefit of others. That is, to be truly loyal, Loken has to give up any future or glory for the "Luna Wolves," because that would mean accruing some kind of glory.

Put it this way. If you invent the HIV vaccine, you have done a thing that is "good," like you want Loken's Luna Wolves to be. However, if you invent the HIV vaccine you will also have the opportunity to sleep with lots of people and bulldoze your enemies' homes.

*I'm not saying there is money in HIV research, just use your own proxy for something that wins you a Nobel prize or whatever.

Do It! Just find a Chapter Tactics that works for you and than use Space Wolves Bits to give them the little wolf aspect to them. It's just a hobby/game so who cares what your opponents think!

Could have been a fleet sent out to a remote part of galexy, came back later to find the betrayal,civil war, brothers turned and arrived many years after the event.

Could add a semi culture of bit too willing to scarfice or take loss,s to prove there loyalty to imiprium with own blood if required. A chapter that's never at full strength and often teetrs near its own demise due to numbers being bit too low. Yet survives.

Maybe sons of hades, to symbolise the darkness in there past, ie underworld. No thing for honours, celebration or such but just get on with the job.

In the black legion book abbadon finds a Luna wolf or sons of horus remnant, they are mutated to a degree and he welcomes them into the black legion, so if it's happened once, it can again.

How's this...

The Ardent Wolves

A chapter started by around 50 space marines mostly comprised of loyal Son's of Horus who managed to survive aboard the Eisenstein or were fortunate enough to avoid or survive the massacre on Istvaan III. Upon their arrival at Terra the lords of Terra saw their passion for what the Luna Wolves once represented and allowed them to take up that name again.

At the end of the Heresy Roboute Guilliman didn't trust them and wished to disband them however they argued their cause and were eventually allowed to form The Ardent Wolves but only permitted to form a single company as a precaution in case they turned traitor like their Primarch. In the 41st millenium they are made up of a full 1st company and a scout company.

As former Son's of Horus The Ardent Wolves are skilled warriors even by Space Marine standards and have one of the purest gene seeds of any chapter.

Few have heard of them and even fewer know them as more than a feared myth but those who have encountered them see them as ferocious warriors who should rightfully be feared by all.

Further thoughts and criticism would be appreciated?

Thanks

The Inquisition would be on them like white on rice.

pelicaniforce wrote:
There are still "Luna Wolves."

There are two things to consider. One of them is that they only get one chance. Like, what if the Imperial Fists, or just the leadership of the Imperial Fists and almost all of the chapter, but not one company, decided to become traitors for just a little while. Like, they would just sacrifice one planet to the gods of darkness, and then go back to being good.

What do you say to that? Why should I believe that they are done sacrificing planets, and that they won't feel like taking a break from their oaths again in a couple of centuries? What about that one loyal company, what is to stop eighty of those marines from turning a few years later, and just twenty remaining loyal? I don't think the Imperium really has time for this kind of head ache.

The other thing is that you should think about some of the similar bits of fluff. The World Eaters, the Thousand Sons, and the Night Lords "turned" at the heresy, but they didn't really do anything differently. The World Eaters were always fundamentally Khornate, there was just a time when they didn't know what that was, and they sort of happened to fight for the Imperium. The Luna Wolves were also the strongest/coolest/most victorious of the legions, and that is a fundamentally chaotic position. The basic bargain is that chaos gives you muscles, wings, cool swords, a palace, and slaves, that is you get to win at life, but when you die your soul enters eternal torment.

The way to be "good," is to do the opposite, which is giving up your own life and sacrificing your own glory for the benefit of others. That is, to be truly loyal, Loken has to give up any future or glory for the "Luna Wolves," because that would mean accruing some kind of glory.

Put it this way. If you invent the HIV vaccine, you have done a thing that is "good," like you want Loken's Luna Wolves to be. However, if you invent the HIV vaccine you will also have the opportunity to sleep with lots of people and bulldoze your enemies' homes.

*I'm not saying there is money in HIV research, just use your own proxy for something that wins you a Nobel prize or whatever.

Who said they turned?

Few have heard of them and even fewer know them as more than a feared myth but those who have encountered them see them as ferocious warriors who should rightfully be feared by all.

Further thoughts and criticism would be appreciated?

Who would fear them, and why?

If you mean other Space Marines, I can guarantee you the Space Wolves, at the least (if not also the Space Sharks and the Minotaurs, possibly also the Raven Guard and the Dark Angels) would seek to track them down and exterminate them, as a way of proving their loyalty to the Emperor.

Also, Space Marines don't afraid of anything, let alone other Space Marines who are 10,000 years descended from Traitors.

Change feared to respected then, that's probably more appropriate.

Khonsu wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
There are still "Luna Wolves."

There are two things to consider. One of them is that they only get one chance. Like, what if the Imperial Fists, or just the leadership of the Imperial Fists and almost all of the chapter, but not one company, decided to become traitors for just a little while. Like, they would just sacrifice one planet to the gods of darkness, and then go back to being good.

What do you say to that? Why should I believe that they are done sacrificing planets, and that they won't feel like taking a break from their oaths again in a couple of centuries? What about that one loyal company, what is to stop eighty of those marines from turning a few years later, and just twenty remaining loyal? I don't think the Imperium really has time for this kind of head ache.

The other thing is that you should think about some of the similar bits of fluff. The World Eaters, the Thousand Sons, and the Night Lords "turned" at the heresy, but they didn't really do anything differently. The World Eaters were always fundamentally Khornate, there was just a time when they didn't know what that was, and they sort of happened to fight for the Imperium. The Luna Wolves were also the strongest/coolest/most victorious of the legions, and that is a fundamentally chaotic position. The basic bargain is that chaos gives you muscles, wings, cool swords, a palace, and slaves, that is you get to win at life, but when you die your soul enters eternal torment.

The way to be "good," is to do the opposite, which is giving up your own life and sacrificing your own glory for the benefit of others. That is, to be truly loyal, Loken has to give up any future or glory for the "Luna Wolves," because that would mean accruing some kind of glory.

Put it this way. If you invent the HIV vaccine, you have done a thing that is "good," like you want Loken's Luna Wolves to be. However, if you invent the HIV vaccine you will also have the opportunity to sleep with lots of people and bulldoze your enemies' homes.

*I'm not saying there is money in HIV research, just use your own proxy for something that wins you a Nobel prize or whatever.

Who said they turned?

They don't have to.

Do you know about the fall of the eldar and the birth of Slaanesh? Slaanesh was "born" at the fall of the eldar, but he always existed. Indeed, there were slaaneshi cults before slaanesh was born, since that is what many of the eldar were doing at the time. Those eldar did not wear any badges that said "slaanesh," but since it was their slaaneshi-cult activites that birthed slaanesh, they were slaaneshi all the same.

The chaos legions were the same. To them, chaos did not exist. They didn't wear the badges of chaos and they did wear the badges of the Imperium. What about the World Eaters was not Khornate, what about the Thousand Sons was not Tzeentchian?

Put it this way. Right now, the whole Imperial Fists chapter profess one ideology. Hypothetically, 800 of those Imperial Fists become traitors, but do not change their ideology. You have revealed that the ideology that is still held by the remaining Imperial Fists is not incompatible with corruption and treachery, so while they are loyal now, there is a very apparent path for them to become corrupted and traitorous later.

The Luna Wolves were always corrupt, were always chaotic, they just didn't know what chaos was.

welcome to my custom chapter, the hounds of loken.

Well, that's just plain not true. The Luna Wolves were amongst the least corrupt of all of the Space Marine Legions, they weren't excessive (Slaanesh), they weren't obsessed with violence (Khorne), they werent' Psyker-centric (Tzeentch), they didn't employ terrorist tactics (Nurgle), the really didn't display any signs of Chaotic traits until after Horus was corrupted. Their main flaw was just that they were more loyal to Horus than to the Emperor, so that when he fell, so did they (well, most of them). Remember, a full third of the Sons of Horus were killed on Istvaan by the Traitors. Which is more than most of the other Traitor Legions.

Here's the way I answer questions like this.

Let's say you were a member of the Wehrmacht during WWII, and you really, really did not like what Hitler was up to. The war is now over. Do you go back to wearing a swastika?

The Sons of Horus were despised throughout the universe after the events of the Heresy. I can't imagine any loyalist is going to want to keep those icons or colors, it's got to be the worst thing you could do.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Here's the way I answer questions like this.

Let's say you were a member of the Wehrmacht during WWII, and you really, really did not like what Hitler was up to. The war is now over. Do you go back to wearing a swastika?

The Sons of Horus were despised throughout the universe after the events of the Heresy. I can't imagine any loyalist is going to want to keep those icons or colors, it's got to be the worst thing you could do.

I think your missing the point. Have you seen the film Valkyrie? Tom cruise plays a Nazi officer etc. His character decides he doesn't want to be a part of Hitlers germany and tries to kill him for the sake of 'Sacred Germany'.

It would be the same in my chapters case, they would be loyal to the original Luna Wolves ideology as opposed to the new traitorous ideology the Son's of Horus which emerges after Horus' corruption at the serpent lodge and the Istvaan III Massacre. These were marines who quit as soon as they realised Horus' traitorous actions.

Maybe my chapter could wear the colours and just say their Luna Wolf origins are unknown to all apart from to members of the chapter. This means their less likely to get hated/hunted by zealously loyal chapters and the inquisition while still having the meaning/connotations of the Luna Wolves I want in my armies fluff.

you can't hide that from the inquisition. they're going to figure out that these luna wolves are luna wolves. that's why you call them the hounds of loken.

I'm thinking about calling them The Vindicators. I thought it would be appropriate. Thought about referencing Loken but i figured if he helped found the Grey Knights why would he then found another chapter

he didn't. they just took up the name of a martyr.

The German forces analogy works if you consider the Sons of Horus the Nazi Wehrmacht and the pre-Heresy Luna Wolves the WWI Imperial Army or the Weimar-era Reichswehr. Certainly shared some imagery, colors and iconography, but it's certainly true that any postwar German soldier wouldn't dream of using distinct Wehrmacht symbols (at least, I hope they wouldn't). Drawing on the Imperial Army or Reichswehr however, much more likely. The modern German army still uses grey dress uniforms or Iron Cross symbols similar to those of German armies past, so it's not inconceivable.

How you handle the Inquisition side of things should make for fun fluff.

Maybe they've got a secret sponsor within the Inquisition that keeps them alive, despite the efforts of more zealous members of the Inquisition to destroy them. Their true origins may be something they keep deeply secret, as the Dark Angels do their past. Or, perhaps their existence itself isn't admitted, and instead they work at the behest of their secret sponsor in the Inquisition, striking special targets and then rapidly disappearing, their appearance being brushed off as a misidentification or just a rumor. That could be part of their shtick: never leaving any proof of their existence behind, whether it's a body, piece of power armor, etc... everything must be disappeared.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'm thinking about calling them The Vindicators. I thought it would be appropriate. Thought about referencing Loken but i figured if he helped found the Grey Knights why would he then found another chapter

I think there was a Vindicators chapter in one of the old Chapter Approved books. Don't believe they gave any color scheme or history about it, so you can certainly take it over for your own.

As for using Loken, no reason they wouldn't honor a key loyalist of the Luna Wolves with his name. No reason he has to found the chapter itself.

You can make this a reality if you want, 40k has endless openings for any fanon

Step 1: Luna Wolves Company is lost in the Warp pre-heresy

Step 2: They emerge post-Heresy

Step 3: They are horrified at what the state of their legion is

 Coldstream wrote:
Maybe they've got a secret sponsor within the Inquisition that keeps them alive, despite the efforts of more zealous members of the Inquisition to destroy them. Their true origins may be something they keep deeply secret, as the Dark Angels do their past.Automatically Appended Next Post:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'm thinking about calling them The Vindicators. I thought it would be appropriate. Thought about referencing Loken but i figured if he helped found the Grey Knights why would he then found another chapter

I think there was a Vindicators chapter in one of the old Chapter Approved books. Don't believe they gave any color scheme or history about it, so you can certainly take it over for your own.

These are some awesome ideas. The idea of a secret sponsor is excellent. I can just see inquisitors getting frustrated as they get orders from high up to close investigations into them. and I believe Loken was one of the founders of the inquisition so its plausible.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
you can't hide that from the inquisition. they're going to figure out that these luna wolves are luna wolves. that's why you call them the hounds of loken.

So what about the Mark of Wulfen... the Inquisition has no idea about that. Or some crazy things about the Dark Angels, the Inquisition in't the brightest when it comes to secrets.

They could be like strike force aspect that Coldstream said. I thinking that maybe try using like redemption wolves, but have the redemption in like latin or another language. But if you like the vindicators, I'm expecting ome Vindicators in your army list lol

sounds like I've got some good fluff for it, just need a name.

Some combination of wolves, hounds, redemption, vindication, loyalty, last of the legion etc.

Tried switching things to Latin, Greek and Italian but they seem to loose their meaning.

Any suggestions?

Taffy17 wrote:
sounds like I've got some good fluff for it, just need a name.

Some combination of wolves, hounds, redemption, vindication, loyalty, last of the legion etc.

Tried switching things to Latin, Greek and Italian but they seem to loose their meaning.

Any suggestions?

Hmmmm....

Dire Wolves? Keeps the Wolf name, "Dire" can be a nod to their tough position and the fury they bring to their foes. (Kind of surprised there isn't a chapter with this name already)

Wolves/Hounds of Vindication/Absolution/Exculpation/Atonement? Keeps some of the names (or similar ones) you want. Plus not out of the ordinary when compared to the various "Angels of X" chapters out there.

Lone Wolves? Ironically humorous. Since they're the last of their legion.

Ghost Wolves/Hounds? Final shades of a legion brought back from the grave, so to speak?

White Wolves? Contrasting them with their relatives in what is now the Black Legion?

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. If I can think of more I'll post them.

In order of preference, my ideas so far.

Ardent Wolves
Vindicators
Canis Omega (last dogs)
Sons of Cthonia
Lupus Ultima (last wolves)


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These are awesome with some great logic to them.

Dire Wolves? Great idea with the right meanings

Wolves/Hounds of Vindication/Absolution/Exculpation/Atonement? good logic, all those seem to be a bit of a mouthful though.

Lone Wolves? Awesome again, less inclined to use it cause the space wolves have lone wolves.

Ghost Wolves/Hounds? sounds a bit tacky, no offence, maybe something like wolves reborn or something?

White Wolves? Like a lot also!

Ardent Wolves, White Wolves, Dire Wolves, I think it'll be one of these

Taffy17 wrote:
In order of preference, my ideas so far.

Ardent Wolves
Vindicators
Canis Omega (last dogs)
Sons of Cthonia
Lupus Ultima (last wolves)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
These are awesome with some great logic to them.

Dire Wolves? Great idea with the right meanings

Wolves/Hounds of Vindication/Absolution/Exculpation/Atonement? good logic, all those seem to be a bit of a mouthful though.

Lone Wolves? Awesome again, less inclined to use it cause the space wolves have lone wolves.

Ghost Wolves/Hounds? sounds a bit tacky, no offence, maybe something like wolves reborn or something?

White Wolves? Like a lot also!

Ardent Wolves, White Wolves, Dire Wolves, I think it'll be one of these

Heh, no offense to me. Beauty of throwing ideas out there...some of them are terrible and need to be shot down.

All three of your favorites sound like great choices to me. All Space-Mariney enough and work with your fluff.

In universe, it's explicitly stated that, when trying to determine who their primarch is, the Sons of Antaeus (a 21st founding loyalist chapter of Space Marines) are pointed out BY THEIR DETRACTORS to be similar to the Death Guard.

IE, just the idea that they might be descended from a traitor primarch is pointed out by DETRACTORS. In essence, being descended from a traitor primarch, even if you're a loyalist chapter that wasn't even second founding, is not a good thing.

It's not their fault their gene seed came from a traitor primarch. They're not even a second founding chapter so their original members weren't Death Guard members from the Heresy. Yet the idea of them being from a traitor primarch is still a bad thing that detractors use against them.

So basically, going from this, you can rest assured that any Space Marine chapter that knows they're from a traitor primarch (should such a chapter hypothetically exist) would cover it up.


As to your question, "Is it possible that enough loyal, like minded Son's of Horus survived to create a probably understrength post-heresy Luna Wolves chapter?", the answer is "Yes, it's possible that enough survived" and "Maybe. We don't (yet?) know what the procedure for remaining loyalists from traitor legions was, after the Heresy ended."

When the Horus Heresy broke out, not every member of the traitor legions got the memo, nor was every one present at Ishtvaan III. Logically, it'd be silly to assume they could scour the ENTIRE GALAXY of the loyalist members within their ranks that quickly. But we actually have several canon cases of loyalists from traitor legions even after the Heresy.

Perturabo... I wonder if he cared in the first place So far we've seen TWO fluff examples of entire chunks of Iron Warriors who were never told "Hey, your legion's traitor!" Ironsmith Dantioch and his group of marines only got the memo when a bunch of traitor iron warriors showed up on his doorstep and said "Yo, we need your fortress as a stepping stone to invade Terra!" And that Iron Warrior in HH Book 3 and his group of marines from Forgeworld only got the memo when the Alpha Legion SHOT AT HIM while he was refueling at a loyalist supply station. Dantioch's group is actually rather safe and secure at Maccrage and thus somewhat likely to survive the Heresy (reader speculation is they'll go on to become the Iron Skulls loyalist chapter, a 2nd founding chapter which since 2nd edition always only CLAIMS they're successors of the Ultramarines. That's just speculation, though, just to warn you). The other group probably all got killed but it's specifically stated to be unknown.

Several World Eaters (yes, there were loyalist world eaters. That's why they had to be purged at Ishtvaan) were also away from Ishtvaan in the book Battle for the Abyss and never got the memo. Once again, they only finally got the memo when the Ultramarines they were with were being shot at (at which point, they decided to stay loyalist, not necessarily because they were loyal but just because they wanted to fight something and the traitors were a yummier target and the ones that were firing at the Ultramarines they were teamed up withl). They all died eventually but they were on the loyalists' side to the end (even after a Word Bearer tried to convince them to switch). There was also a loyalist Thousand Son there who finally got the memo whe the Word Bearer told him "Your legion's a traitor! Get over here on our side instead of that side!" and he dared to say "Um, what?", before the Word Bearer exploded his ship (I think he escaped in an escape pod, but all the non-marine spireguard crew were killed)

Magnus sent away a ton of Thousand Sons before the Burning of Prospero. They show up later and are still loyal.

That latest Night Lords short story has a loyalist Night Lord Librarian who got estranged from his legion after the council of Nikaea and thus wasn't in the loop when it went traitor. He accepted his execution because he wanted to stay loyal (but it turned out his captor wasn't there to execute him, but to try to recruit him, implied to be into the Grey Knights)

All of the honor guard from various traitor legions in Outcast Dead that were stationed on Terra didn't get the memo until they got tossed into prison. (they all died except one Luna Wolf while they were trying to escape. That one Luna Wolf was recruited by Malcador for the Grey Knights later on)



So yes, it's possible there are Luna Wolves out there who stayed loyal. It's possible there are enough to form an entire chapter. But if they DID, they'd cover up who their primarch is, because having your primarch be a traitor is an insult judging by the Sons of Antaeus example (of course, all the other chapters on the 40th Millenium that WH40k fans suspect are from traitor primarchs are also known to have their past primarchs covered up. But even if you don't think the Blood Ravens, Red Scorpions, or Iron Skulls are from traitor primarchs, you still have the Sons of Antaeus to canonically show a Space Marine chapter would not want to be known to be descended from a traitor primarch)