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Weird question (probably due to my brain having 8th and 9th rules intermingling), but can I have a legal, Matched Play list with a 1kSons Detachment, a Wordbearers Detachment AND a mixed Daemons Detachment?

I know the later lose Loci, etc... but if everyone is in their own detachments, is sharing the Chaos keyword enough to make the wider list legal?

Yup, totally valid.

Unfortunately not. This article explains it nicely,

https://www.goonhammer.com/detachments-and-stratagems-what-are-they-and-how-do-i-get-them/

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Weird question (probably due to my brain having 8th and 9th rules intermingling), but can I have a legal, Matched Play list with a 1kSons Detachment, a Wordbearers Detachment AND a mixed Daemons Detachment?

I know the later lose Loci, etc... but if everyone is in their own detachments, is sharing the Chaos keyword enough to make the wider list legal?

Legal, yes, so long as everything has the Chaos keyword.

Useful, not so sure.

Sure you could. And there is some use there I suppose depending on what your taking from each area. You could really spam the board with tzaangors and horrors and Bloodletters deep striking with tson terms and arhiman giving good psycic backup, word bearers giving almost garunteed psycic output and nasty possessed combos, and the deamons giving out greater deamons or heralds or what have you.

I would love to see the crazy list you come up with.

It would be Supreme Command for Magnus, a lean Patrol of Wordbearers for undeniable Death-Hex/Warptime, and most points in Daemons for a LoC and a lot of Horrors.

I actually got quite excited looking at Terrax drills. I wondered why people haven't used more than one typically. Then I realised they come close to 200 points. (190 with volkites). Its still 5 melta shots, volkite shooting, plus it transports 12 infantry. And it is 14W T8 to boot. Honestly, its tons better than a Land Raider unless you want to transport terminators. A LR is so much more expensive (over 300 points), and the shooting isn't much better (once you are in range). I think a Drill actually even fights better in close combat too! lol

Its a pity its so hard to get one because its a forgeworld model. Seriously, they need to relook at a Land Raider. Maybe remove its capacity to transport terminators so that it can only ferry normal infantry and it can then be pointed appropriately.

Land Raiders should be about a hundred points cheaper. Given the current Meta with all the stuff that can absolutely rip tanks to pieces in one round there's no reason for a Land Raider to be 300+ points.

Land Raiders are 285 PPM without optional equipment, not 300+ PPM. The only one that's that expensive is the Achilles, which is packing a 5++, 2 twin multi-meltas, and a Quad Launcher, and is 360 PPM. Agreed their overpriced though, but probably not by 100 points. They need their Assault Ramps back too.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Land Raiders are 285 PPM without optional equipment, not 300+ PPM. The only one that's that expensive is the Achilles, which is packing a 5++, 2 twin multi-meltas, and a Quad Launcher, and is 360 PPM. Agreed their overpriced though, but probably not by 100 points. They need their Assault Ramps back too.

Nah I think we really are in the realm of 100 points over. Probably more like 80. That is every Astarte's pattern type tank though in the game. Overpriced by 25% or more.

The land raider Proteus is 270 with a 5++. It costs a CP and you downgrade the twin heavy bolter for a single but it still seems much better value.
A blanket 5++ on all land raiders and assault ramps would possibly bring them all back into consideration

If anything deserves an innate -1 damage trait it’s Land Raiders, not dreadnoughts.

 Badablack wrote:
If anything deserves an innate -1 damage trait it’s Land Raiders, not dreadnoughts.

Inbound that rule but it is in a warzone book....

I'm looking at picking up a dreadnaught type unit. Comparing the Contemptor to the Helbrute I like the Contemptor more, even if it is more expensive point and $ wise.

I've never used either unit and would be interested in what others think of the 2 units. Any drawbacks (other than the 1 CP for the contemptor) or advantages that stand out? Which would you choose or does the mission matter?

Contemptors are definitely better than our Hellbrute right now. The only good thing Hellbrutes really have going for them is being cheap and having the fire frenzy strategem. Otherwise, they are much more inferior. Wait for the 9th ed codex and maybe they will get better. (hopefully).

I personally think helbrutes look cooler. And you can magnetize easily the weapon options... The tactical versatility of being able to magnetize all the options instead of having to buy them all for the contemptor is worth considering since each individual weapon is what, 20-30 dollars or so?

Once Hellbrutes get their -1 to all incoming damage rule there may be an argument for them over Contemptors, but right now Contemptors have that AND a 5++. Throw in the options of volkites with 16 shots at S6 AP0 D2 MWs on 6s or chainclaws doing flat D6 at S14 AP4 against vehicles and it's no contest.

The next question is where can I get the alternative weapons/arms? I looked at forge world and they don't offer much in the way of graviton cannons or volkite weaponry.

I kinda wonder if they will further adjust some points for CSM in the upcoming field manual. I mean, it doesn't look like our codex is coming out anytime soon. Making some points adjustments might be able to keep our faction interesting considering how each new 9th edition codex that comes out looks so OP compared to the old 8th editions codexes.

I mean, they went to such pains to nerf cultists with a 6+ armor save. Now, 20 man rangers that can be buffed to 3+ armor save (2+ in cover?), can basically pump out 80 shots in rapid fire and do up to 6 mortal wounds on top of all the wounds done ...

Gw doesn't want you to field cultists.
It's pretty clear, what with no traits, no real other synergy, 6ppm, and worse then guardsmen profile.

GW still hasn't learnt as to why noone fielded CSM before, bar some fringe lists and will not learn in the forseeable future either.

I own 3 land raiders, I love my iron warriors and I tihnk Land Raiders just need T9.

In a World Eaters list what is best to run along the Rhinos fast attack wise?

Bikers
Warp Talons
Raptors
Blood Slaughterers

Maybe even a Heldrake is on the table.

If it matters my Meta is Space Marine heavy with lots of mid range Melta

 Reivax26 wrote:
In a World Eaters list what is best to run along the Rhinos fast attack wise?

Bikers
Warp Talons
Raptors
Blood Slaughterers

Maybe even a Heldrake is on the table.

If it matters my Meta is Space Marine heavy with lots of mid range Melta

I think Raptors. Cheap and hit reasonably hard on the charge. Warp Talons if you want something that hits harder, but they are more expensive. The problem is they are all easy to kill. So, don't expect any to survive once they expose themselves and charge into combat. That's why I would advise Raptors cos they are at least cheap.

So 5 man squads of Raptors with 2 Meltas in each?

You could do that sure. But the two meltas will add to their cost. Like I said, the good thing about the raptors is that its cheap. Adding 20 points is reducing one of their pros.

If you are using them as a sacrificial type of unit to push onto an objective. You want to keep them cheap. Any kind of decent focus on them will kill them. The meta of 9th edition is that five 1W models will not survive long exposed out in the open to being charged or shot at.

But 5 Raptors are cheap, fast, and they still hit hard in close combat cos you are WE. So, say you start first. You fly a unit of 5 onto a midboard objective. You immediately apply pressure on the opponent. He has to either shoot them to death, or charge them with something. But to you, even if that squad dies, its cheap. Its not like losing a nearly 200 points lord discordant or flying demon prince.

Similarly. Say your opponent has 10 IG infantry or 10 rangers on an onjective. You charge in those 5 raptors, they got a ton of hits cos you are WE, they got a good chance of wiping that unit, plus now you have bodies on that objective. And again if your opponent responds by killing them, they are cheap, so its fine.

Its like playing chess. And your Raptors are a great unit that is cheap that you can use as a sacrificial piece you don't mind losing. Yet they can kill stuff they charge, and their mobility means you can surprise your opponent.

They move 12 inches, that gives them a big threat range. You can fly them midboard, keep them tucked behind some obscuring terrain. Then next turn, with a 12 inch move plus 2d6, they might even end up threatening something in enemy deployment zone.

Opponents often leave something cheap on a rear objective, like 10 cheap rangers or 10 IG infantry. You fly past his front line, get the charge in, kill that unit and now suddenly you are sitting on his rear objective and depriving him or easy primary points. Maybe he ends up reploying valuable assets back from his front line or valuable shooting just to remove you from that objective.

Don't just charge everything blindly in, even if you are WE. Our current CSM statline is too fragile for that. So, look at it like a chess game. Where you put in one or two sacificial units as bait, or to force a move, or to take away an objective, and the rest of your army gets into a better position (with keeping as safe as possible using terrain). Insist on playing with obscuring terrain on the board. There has to be enough of that.

Chaos Land Raiders are going down to 265 points with standard armament, according to a post on Warhammer Community.

Need to look at cost of other units to compare, but this still sounds too high. For 4 Lascannons and a Storm Bolter, 190 - 235 points seems like the right range. You're paying more for the transport capability of a unit that's rarely used as a transport.

Well there are 2 ways to look at this in my book.

1. 265 is better than 285, but its still expensive. Still, we are chaos, we are used to overpaying for stuff and 265 isn't bad what a raider can do as long as you don't actually plan on using it for deployment of units. I always run mine like a mobile gun bunker that typically has no one in it and I will take the 20 pts.

2. It's still overcosted as a transport vehicle. It used to be incredibly bad at its job back in 7th ed and before when you had firing arcs, weapons couldn't split fire, and you didn't want to move them. It's better now, no longer such a mess of design, but you still don't want to put anything in there. Rhinos can transport stuff cheaper, and anything the raider can transport but the rhino can't shouldn't be in the raider to begin with. So its lore use is still not able to be seen on the tabletop.

Still, with our book being old, we can really take advantage of this. I have used 2 raiders to good effect before, t1 start 1 raider on the table with a dark apostle and sorcerer of nurgle next to abaddon. Apostle makes it -1 to hit, abaddon and sorcerer make it very good at shooting. T2 the 2nd raider moves onto the table from reserves and the sorcerer casts miasma of Pestilence on it giving it -1 to hit as well, abaddon gives full rerolls, you have a good and effective fire platform there that can do a lot of work as long as you can keep those eradicators and drop pods of multi melta devs away lol.

still too expensive. If the 20pt drop really is across the board and includes the Proteus that might be something. 235pts + 15pts for the 5++ heavy armour

I love landradiers, such and iconic WH40k vehicle. Lowering the points is not going to fix them. They should be T9 to represent the old 14/14/14 (which was better than a knight armor) and their assault ramp should allow move and deploy units (they let the new primaries unit do that). Then leave it at 285, maybe 300 and it would be good. Now, they could make it 220 and I don't think I would field it (well not unless it was a fun-sie list) especially in light of the DE lists with all that dark lance.

 xeen wrote:
I love landradiers, such and iconic WH40k vehicle. Lowering the points is not going to fix them. They should be T9 to represent the old 14/14/14 (which was better than a knight armor) and their assault ramp should allow move and deploy units (they let the new primaries unit do that). Then leave it at 285, maybe 300 and it would be good. Now, they could make it 220 and I don't think I would field it (well not unless it was a fun-sie list) especially in light of the DE lists with all that dark lance.

I love Land Raiders too. But there might not be a way to make them work in 9th, even at a much lower points cost.

All the high S AP- weapons make their save too flimsy for the points. Maybe if they halved all damage, they would be worth it.

Well, its still a 20 points drop. Might be interesting to see if it could work. I remember playing against a space wolf list with a land raider with my Deathguard. Despite my PBC having entropy cannons, that landraider didn't die until turn 4 or 5. The player used obscuring terrain to hide initially and even when it was exposed, my PBCs wiffed hitting or wounding it. Toughness 8 means that dark lances and entropy cannons wound it on a 4 only.

I believe we are overpaying in points for the LR mainly because it can transport units in terminator armor. So, if we want maximum bang for our buck, we literally need to utilise that unique capability and transport terminators. The only problem is that that would immediately make the entire unit and its cargo a huge juicy target worth easily 500 points.

Its still gonna be tough. But well, who knows. Maybe some top GT player will suddenly make LR work just because of this? lol