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Hey all,

I got back into the hobby late last year after a good 15 years away from it, and was so excited to get back to the table top I took a few shortcuts in terms of budget. One of those was using primarily craft paints to get started with my new paint scheme. While those cheap paints have reacted well with washes for uniforms and faces, i'm having a lot of trouble now with the base coat on armor and vehicles. Basically, because the craft plaint dried with a rough texture rather than flat, the washes accent random areas of the entire surface rather than pooling in the recesses like I'd like. In trying to get the effect I'm looking for, I have had to slop on lots of wash and that ultimately drastically changes the base color everywhere.

Have I just made my bed and now have to lie in it? Is it going to just take more base coat painting post-wash to make it work? What would you recommend?

Actually craft paints should be usable if you dilute them properly, you´ll probably just need loads of layers to actually cover anything.
I´m not sure if I really get your problem but by the sound of it I´d just strip them and give it a new run.

Strip the models and start over. The time it will take to find out the dilution ratio for craft paint and then actually paint that many layers (lots...10+) to actually get a good coat would be better served by buying real paint.

Yeah, that's sort of what I was afraid of. The problem is that I've already painted the majority of the army this way. Since I knew I was going to be relearning painting as I went along I decided to do everything essentially in stages. Primed everything, painted everything, and am just now at the wash stage. I'd really prefer to not start from scratch after all that work. Will keep trying a few things to mitigate it I guess.

Well... Sound like your fethed... Sorry mate

A wash should go on better if you spray the model with a gloss varnish.

I'd try this on ONE model first though.

Alternatively I'd try and find a spraypaint that is close to your base color and re-do the vehicles with that.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
A wash should go on better if you spray the model with a gloss varnish.

I'd try this on ONE model first though.

Alternatively I'd try and find a spraypaint that is close to your base color and re-do the vehicles with that.

This is my first thought as well. If it's only a little bit rough which is causing the paint to not settle in the crevices, a gloss varnish should fix it. After you've done your wash you can apply a satin varnish to get rid of the shine. Make sure you leave plenty of time between varnishing and washing, I usually just leave a few days to be sure.

I've been surprised at a couple of models that I thought I screwed up by leaving too rough of a finish and then after a coat of gloss varnish they were fine.

If it's so rough that a gloss varnish can't smooth it over, then you're probably fethed and will need to strip them (or maybe sand them? I dunno).

As Slave said, test it on one model first, making sure to leave plenty of time between the varnishing and the washing.

This is why you should always do a test model when trying something new or starting over fresh. I'd suggest a system like this one, which would have allowed you to realise the problem well before painting your whole force.

My more general advice would be to avoid craft paints. While usable, they need more time, consideration and effort to get them to work on miniatures because, well... there's a reason you have paint ranges specifically designed for miniature painting, and there's a reason craft paints aren't in that category.

Depends on the brand of paint, maybe. American craft paints are pretty good, and I'm well pleased with the few bottles of Anita's and Folkart I've got. Almost as good as the mini paints I have (and better than some specific colours). European stuff, like Royal & Langnickel, or Lefranc & Bourgeois' discontinued 'Multi', were a bit more crap. The latter in particular was fairly chalky and gritty, like your example.

Dunno what to suggest that hasn't already been suggested. I feel your pain at all the work already done, though. I hope dilution or gloss varnish solves your problem, to avoid stripping all that again.
I wonder if a wee bit of acrylic medium or flow aid would help subsequent layers?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
A wash should go on better if you spray the model with a gloss varnish.

I'd try this on ONE model first though.

Alternatively I'd try and find a spraypaint that is close to your base color and re-do the vehicles with that.

Liquitex now makes a very wide range of spray paints. I've found colors that are decent matches for the Fang basecoat and Russ Grey layer paints that are the staple of a typical Space Wolves force.

Also, spend a little bit more on Liquitex or Academy paints if you don't want to overpay for Citadel paints. They're much cheaper than Citadel, but the Liquitex heavy body paints in particular have a lot of pigment, so once thinned down, they still cover well without needing excessive layers.

 Vermis wrote:
Depends on the brand of paint, maybe. American craft paints are pretty good, and I'm well pleased with the few bottles of Anita's and Folkart I've got. Almost as good as the mini paints I have (and better than some specific colours). European stuff, like Royal & Langnickel, or Lefranc & Bourgeois' discontinued 'Multi', were a bit more crap. The latter in particular was fairly chalky and gritty, like your example.

Dunno what to suggest that hasn't already been suggested. I feel your pain at all the work already done, though. I hope dilution or gloss varnish solves your problem, to avoid stripping all that again.
I wonder if a wee bit of acrylic medium or flow aid would help subsequent layers?

It would but you are still laying on more thicker layers and gradually obscuring detail. Of course this only matters if you care about the detail anyway.

The basic thing about 'craft' paint is that the pigment granules are larger than the more expensive paints made for artist and modelling work. There is no way around that.

Believe me, I'm fairly OCD about fine details, smooth layers, neat painting and so on. Like I say, some of the US craft paints I have don't have the greatest coverage, true, but then neither do a lot of the miniature paints I have. (Including a couple of GW's 'opaque' base colours) Both types ideally need 2-3 coats for an even layer, and I was pleasantly surprised that the craft paints only needed that. The biggest difference I can see is that the craft paints are more matt.

Here's a couple of old pics. The tan cloth on this scarecrow might be basecoated with Anita's coffee, I cant quite remember, but I know the brown cloth is basecoated with Anita's chocolate brown.


http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/Vermis/Fantasy/Spycrow+1.jpg.html

This is a WIP that didn't go too far, but the red gobbos here have Anita's rust red and dusty rose in their skintones. Maybe a bit of A's mauve too.


http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/Vermis/Fantasy/Heresy/Gobbos+WIP1.jpg.html

If that's still not flat enough for TheNightWillEnd's vehicles, maybe some kind of levelling agent might help. Acrylic flow-aid, or future floor polish, or something like that. Even lahmian medium: I've heard it 'dissolves' pigment a little - I don't know much about that, but from personal experience it ain't bad stuff.

Ive seen suggestions for stripping but nobody seems to have recommended Simple Green.. It seems to be the most popular substance for that though I've only used it on acrylics. Works great on them though, and it's cheap.

Let them soak overnight and take a toothbrush to them, that's what I'd recommend for your plight.

For stripping I've always used isopropyl alcohol, since it's more readily available in the Philippines.

Never use craft paint on models unless properly prepaired (thinned or otherwise prepped)! Craft paint always turns out a bit grainy. I only use it for scenery for that reason. One of those lessons you learn in life - you get what you pay for. Craft paint isn't awful in itself, it just has it's uses and applications.Fine detail mini painting isn't one of them. I would suggest starting over with 'real' paints. Craft paints are cheap for a reason.. Though you can add a bit of medium to them (enough medium to make them just as expensive as GW paints imo) to make them useable...

You could also try only applying the wash where you want it to go. Water down your wash a lot and apply several layers so you don't get a line of different color where the wash is and is not. Then paint along the grooves and put a dab over the rivets. I had this problem with regular minis and GW paint. If you don't water down the wash or apply enough of it at once then it will get blotchy from drying so fast.

Army painter makes a "dip" where you just dunk the whole model in it. I've never used or even seen it used, but the people who use it love it.

Craft paints are great for starting out, don't beat up yourself. I actually recommend that people start painting with craft paints because of the same reason you bought them: they're cheap. I always recommend buying a bag of cheapo brushes and 8 or so Folk-art or other brand (not apple barrel, too bad) paints for $1 each. Add a can of spray primer and you've spent a mere $15 on getting started in painting, a lot less than the $100 of painting supplies most people end up having soon enough.

It's weird no one asked yet, what wash are you using? Have you tried using your basecoat paint thinned with plenty of water and also a tiny tiny bit of black or some other darker color? You could make your own wash with that and then it doesn't really matter how much you apply right? Also, you mentioned that you were unhappy your paint color is changed when you wash the whole surface. That happens no matter how thing your wash is. Sometimes you can use it to your advantage, like when painting leather.

I hope this helps, don't give up! Painting is awesome!

Thanks Tydil, I'll try out those ideas. I think that's what it's going to take -- either focusing on just washing rivets and other detailed areas or washing everything then repainting the flat areas with my base coat after the wash. So far, I've just been testing on the bottom of the tanks until I find a solution.

The base coat I am using is a greyish sky blue and I've been trying to wash it with Drakenof Nightshade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
UPDATE: So, for anyone with the same problem as I, here is the solution I have found:

I diluted the wash about 1:1 and applied it to the model first just wetting the entire surface so that the accented areas won't look too out of place. It still dried a bit unevenly, but diluted to that extent, it wasn't too difficult to fix those spots. Then go and just dab the diluted wash on all the areas you want to accent -- one dab on each individual rivet, for instance. Repeat if you feel like it. For my color scheme, which has a very light base color, just one go through is all it needed to just add that bit of depth and detail I was looking for.

Thanks all for your suggestions!

I use craft paints thinned using a 2:1 Water : future floor finish. I find that thoroughly mixed well they work alright. When it comes to washes and inks you usually want to dilute them as well, I typically cut them 50/50 as well to break up surface tension and help it flow into the crevasses vs pooling on the surface.