Imperial Guard - Veteran Squad Loadout(s)

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**Cothonian**

Hey all this is Cothonian, just had a few thoughts about potential load-outs for Imperial Guard Vets.

I have done some research and noticed that the current most-used loadout for vets seems to be three meltas + demolitions, but I have some other ideas and was wondering what your guys thoughts are. (also forgive me if I mess up on something, I don't have my Codex on hand)

I was thinking about equipping a Veteran Squad as a large sniper team, essentially to serve as a support role for my main attacking units. The loadout would be as follows;

Veteran Squad:
Sniper Rifle
Sniper Rifle
Auto Cannon
Forward Sentries

Again the idea behind this is that the squad would serve in a supporting role, probably positioned on one of the flanks harassing enemy troops and elites. Their ballistic skill of 4 would make the sniper rifles viable, and the Auto Cannon far more effective.

So thoughts?

-Praise The Emperor-

**Paradigm**

Personally, I'm not a fan of the sniper setup. While it's cheap, you could buy 2 Sniper SWS for the cost, 6 rifles rather than 2, and BS doesn't matter so much because you're largely fishing for 6s anyway. I also don't think the Autocannon works that well with Snipers, the targets of the 2 don't really overlap. It could function as a harassment unit, but I still think a pair of Sniper SWS do the job better.

I tend to go with Grenadiers whatever the weapons, and 3 meltas or plasmas as the army requires. I'll often stick a Power Fist or weapon on the Melta squads, just so that if they need to finish something off they have a bit more of a chance to do so. Lascannons if I'm hanging back, no Heavy if I'm pressing forward.

**Cothonian**

Well I'll definitely keep the Special Weapons Teams in mind then, honestly with that many snipers the sheer volume of fire would be enough to subdue squads, even with the lower ballistic skill. Now to find that many sniper bits haha!

**SharkoutofWata**

You can run 12 sniper rifles, and I have in an Eldar Ranger list, and the result is very underwhelming without 'something special' like precision shots on every hit. Half chance to hit, half chance to wound and no AP value unless you get that magic Rending. You would prolly be better off going another direction with it unless you were very set on the idea for fluff reasons. I've gone entire games with Rangers, and that's BS 4 mind you, killing a grand total of 3 MEQ models, none of which were the specific models I actually wanted to die.

**vipoid**

Yeah, with the unnecessary nerfs in 7th, I really struggle to see the appeal of sniper rifles.

Even if the enemy has MCs, they just don't seem cost-effective to me. Maybe if the MC happens to be a Wraithknight, but for most others it just seems like you need far too many shots do inflict even a single wound.

And, if the enemy doesn't have MCs... ugh.

I'd rather take either plasmaguns - which are more effective against MCs and are also good against any other targets, too (albeit at shorter ranges) or a Heavy Weapon of some kind.

**Desubot**

Snipers definitely have been underwhelming lately for me

But dont let that stop you from running em.

I personally like them on PCS as they are usually a tax taken for all the fun stuff a platoon bears.

I like em cheap with just 4 snipers and shove em in ruins next to a objective.

If you are going vets they are better suited i feel with stronger weapons like Plasmas and Meltas though thats becoming cliche

**vipoid**

Anyone use Grenade Launchers?

Either on Vets or elsewhere?

**Grimskul**

vipoid wrote:
Anyone use Grenade Launchers?

Either on Vets or elsewhere?

Grenade Launchers suffer the same issue with Sniper Rifles in that the points you pay for it, though cheap, aren't worth it once you factor in the opportunity cost of losing out on better, consistent special weapons like plasma or melta guns. There's almost never a situation where you'll say "Boy, wish I had some grenade launchers/sniper rifles to deal with X." Grenade launchers are pretty much a slightly more versatile lasgun but loses out on buffs like FRFSRF and therefore not really worth upgrading, for 5 points you may as well get another guardsman instead. You can also never have enough saturation of them to make them meaningfully useful, without wasting slots or points that can better used on other weapons or upgrades.

**Skinnereal**

Being a Troops choice is always handy, for holding objectives.
SWS are troops too, but you have to take the platoon to get them.

Sometimes, all you want is the range. With orders like "suppressive fire" for pinning, you get quite the choice of targets.
"Take Aim" gives Precision Fire to the HWT, IIRC, along with the sniper rifles, which get it even if the order fails.
"Fire on my target" with snipers is useful, too, as is "Bring it down" for MCs and FMCs.
With mismatched weapons, "Smite at will" lets the autocannon shoot something else.

**Paradigm**

vipoid wrote:
Anyone use Grenade Launchers?

Either on Vets or elsewhere?

I have a Platoon that uses them, 4 in the squads and 4 in the PCS. That's actually quite a bit of S6 landing on unwary light vehicles, enough to wound most stuff on 2s, and if the opportunity presents itself, a lot of blasts if the enemy are clustered enough to warrant it.
I won't say they're the best choice, but you can get some mileage out of them.

**Sonsoftherock**

vipoid wrote:
Anyone use Grenade Launchers?

Either on Vets or elsewhere?

I like them in platoon blobs with missile launchers, but then I use Valhallans so it is partially a model availability thing!

**TheSilo**

Paradigm wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Anyone use Grenade Launchers?

Either on Vets or elsewhere?

I have a Platoon that uses them, 4 in the squads and 4 in the PCS. That's actually quite a bit of S6 landing on unwary light vehicles, enough to wound most stuff on 2s, and if the opportunity presents itself, a lot of blasts if the enemy are clustered enough to warrant it.
I won't say they're the best choice, but you can get some mileage out of them.

Hmm, a PCS with grenades launchers and the Suppressive Fire command could be halfway decent.

**greenterror88**

I use Grenade Launchers on all my Infantry Squads. I play a PDF fluffy army so it fits, but occasionally those S6 shots surprise me and take a light vehicle out. The way I look at it the Grenade Launcher is a very versatile weapon for 5pts. You can target infantry mobs (along with those useful lasguns), MCs or even light vehicles.

**martin74**

I have been running the following squads lately.

1. Veterans, sniper rifles x3, lascannon, and forward sentries. I run two of these squads.

2. Veteans, plasma gun x3, grenadiers, chimera.

Also, I have a DA librarian (level 2, power field generator) and a squad of scout snipers with camo cloaks as allies. So, I run 11 snipers in a game. They seem to help with taking out monsterous creatures, but, mainly just hold objectives I can deploy them on.

**vipoid**

Do you guys always put your veterans in transports, or do you ever footslog some or all of them?

**Paradigm**

vipoid wrote:
Do you guys always put your veterans in transports, or do you ever footslog some or all of them?

Footslog most of the time, occasionally I'lll run a single plasma-bus, but not so much with the new codex. Grenadies does wonders for keeping them alive, as does Camo Cloaks if you have an ADL. And since you can get both for what I used to happily pay just for one or the other, that's tempting sometimes as well.

**Peregrine**

vipoid wrote:
Do you guys always put your veterans in transports, or do you ever footslog some or all of them?

Transports are mandatory. You have a expensive and fragile squad armed with short-range weapons. Without a transport they're likely to die before they get into range (even carapace/camo can only delay the inevitable a bit). And even if they do survive the much slower movement speed means that you're not delivering those important guns until late in the game, potentially too late for them to be relevant. If you want foot infantry to camp behind an ADL just bring blob platoons and get more bodies per point.

**Useless Sidekick**

I don't know why people dont see the synergy with sniper rifles and auto cannons, wouldn't this be a good combo for putting wounds on m/c's?
I don't play with snipers as am usually charging up the field in chimeras with 2 melta/plasma and a h flamer :-)
I love putting flamer demo shotgun vets in a valk. That has destroyed so many meq units it's untrue. It dies brutally next turn but o well.

**Paradigm**

Useless Sidekick wrote:
I don't know why people dont see the synergy with sniper rifles and auto cannons, wouldn't this be a good combo for putting wounds on m/c's?

Well, it would do the job in a pinch, but it also lacks the AP to get through the armour that most MCs have, and in general, although more expensive, 3 Plasma and a Lascanon is doing far more hurt to an MC than a Sniper/AC setup.

**vipoid**

Useless Sidekick wrote:
I don't know why people dont see the synergy with sniper rifles and auto cannons, wouldn't this be a good combo for putting wounds on m/c's?

Not really, no.

The problem is, you need to take multiples of both weapons in order to accomplish that (more than 3 sniper rifles and 1 autocannon). And, (IMO) they're just not useful or versatile enough to warrant that sort of expenditure.

I'd rather just take some plasmaguns and have a unit that's actually good at its job.

Useless Sidekick wrote:

I don't play with snipers as am usually charging up the field in chimeras with 2 melta/plasma and a h flamer :-)

Understandable. Sadly, I'm lacking models at the moment - so most of my stuff is stuck footslogging.

Useless Sidekick wrote:

I love putting flamer demo shotgun vets in a valk. That has destroyed so many meq units it's untrue. It dies brutally next turn but o well.

Why shotguns?

**TheSilo**

Paradigm wrote:
Useless Sidekick wrote:
I don't know why people dont see the synergy with sniper rifles and auto cannons, wouldn't this be a good combo for putting wounds on m/c's?

Well, it would do the job in a pinch, but it also lacks the AP to get through the armour that most MCs have, and in general, although more expensive, 3 Plasma and a Lascanon is doing far more hurt to an MC than a Sniper/AC setup.

I run 3 snipers + autocannon + camo all the time. Great backfield long range fire support. They're good monster hunters for a low price.

**Cothonian**

Well I have decided to go with the typical Melta Vet Squad with the Grenadiers doctrine, I can see that extra armor being very helpful. Also they'll be riding into battle in a mighty Chimera!

I do eventually intend on trying out the Vet Squad with Sniper rifles + Auto Cannon, when I have the extra models. Worst case if it really does not serve me I can disperse the models out among the other squads, Special Weapons Teams and such.

Also one thing which I should have mentioned but I forgot to, the primary idea behind the Sniper+Auto Cannon Vet Squad was to fight Tau Crisis Suits, currently they are my opponents favorite unit so I have to deal with a lot of them. The worst is the Tau Crisis Suit Commander, super fast with 2+ save and incredible toughness (cannot remember the exact value at the moment.) The sniper rifles wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness, yeah they still have to deal with the 2+ save but at least they would have more potential for wounding than the lasguns I usually have at my disposal. The Auto Cannon was there to give the squad a little extra strength, for fighting incoming enemy infantry and light vehicles.

Regardless, thank you all for the advice in terms of Veteran Squad load out, really appreciated!

Also going back to the Grenade Launchers mentioned a little earlier in this topic. Personally I equip my standard Guardsmen Squads with them, primarily because the Krak grenades give them a little bit more of a sting against single, high-value targets (again, dealing with lots of Crisis Suits...)

Also expect more nooby load out questions! I have no shortage of strange ideas!

-Praise the Emperor-

**Peregrine**

Useless Sidekick wrote:
I don't know why people dont see the synergy with sniper rifles and auto cannons, wouldn't this be a good combo for putting wounds on m/c's?

It's not the lack of synergy between weapons (though you really want a LC instead), it's the low volume of fire. If you want snipers take ratlings or SWS, vet snipers give you way too few shots per point. So you have a unit that sits back on an objective and contributes an occasional wound, except it costs a lot more than some platoon infantry. If you're going to camp behind an ADL and not really care how much firepower your vets provide then just replace them with platoon squads and get more bodies per point.

Cothonian wrote:
The worst is the Tau Crisis Suit Commander, super fast with 2+ save and incredible toughness (cannot remember the exact value at the moment.)

T5 at most. So you have a choice between sniper rifles that wound on a 4+ and only sometimes ignore its armor save, or plasma guns that wound on a 2+ and always ignore its armor save, or melta guns that wound on a 2+ and always ignore its armor save. Never take sniper rifles.

The Auto Cannon was there to give the squad a little extra strength, for fighting incoming enemy infantry and light vehicles.

But the AC isn't really good at anything. If you're going to take a heavy weapon at all you might as well take a LC so that your heavy weapon shots actually matter.

Personally I equip my standard Guardsmen Squads with them, primarily because the Krak grenades give them a little bit more of a sting against single, high-value targets (again, dealing with lots of Crisis Suits...)

You know what also gives guardsmen a sting against crisis suits? Melta. Wounds on a 2+ instead of a 4+, always ignores armor saves, and inflicts instant death. And as a nice bonus you also get another anti-tank weapon.

**vipoid**

Peregrine wrote:

T5 at most. So you have a choice between sniper rifles that wound on a 4+ and only sometimes ignore its armor save, or plasma guns that wound on a 2+ and always ignore its armor save, or melta guns that wound on a 2+ and always ignore its armor save. Never take sniper rifles.

Not that it matters much - that's what LoS is for.

**TheSilo**

The thing is, snipers have 36" and only cost 2 points. That gives them a much larger threat range and more targets to pick. So comparing them straight up with the 10 point 12" melta gun or the 15 point 24" plasma isn't a good comparison.

Plasma and melta vets lead to a very destructive, but also fragile army list.

Vets with snipers, camo, and AC = 86 points

Vets with carapace and plasma = 120 points

Vets with melta and demo doctrine = 120 points

**martin74**

Played against another AM player today. He had two Wyvren (however that is spelled) and just wrecked my sniper squads. This is the most underwhelming performance they ever had. Anyway, I can't complain, still won the game.

**Peregrine**

TheSilo wrote:
The thing is, snipers have 36" and only cost 2 points. That gives them a much larger threat range and more targets to pick. So comparing them straight up with the 10 point 12" melta gun or the 15 point 24" plasma isn't a good comparison.

Ok, let's compare per point then, using a T6/3+ MC as the target and ignoring the lasguns (which are seldom relevant and the same on both squads):

86 point sniper + AC vets = 0.85 wounds = 101 points per wound.

120 point carapace + plasma vets at 12-24" = 1.33 wounds = 90 points per wound.

120 point carapace + plasma vets at 0-12" = 2.66 wounds = 45 points per wound.

So looks like even against the ideal target for a sniper squad the plasma vets just dominate. And, unlike the sniper vets, the melta/plasma vets are actually useful against vehicles/TEQs/etc. Conclusion: if you want sniper rifles take ratlings. If you're taking vets give them 3x melta or plasma and put them in a Chimera or Valkyrie.

**vipoid**

Out of interest, does anyone take plasma or meltaguns in their infantry platoons (including PCS and SWS)?

TheSilo wrote:
The thing is, snipers have 36" and only cost 2 points. That gives them a much larger threat range and more targets to pick. So comparing them straight up with the 10 point 12" melta gun or the 15 point 24" plasma isn't a good comparison.

Plasma and melta vets lead to a very destructive, but also fragile army list.

Vets with snipers, camo, and AC = 86 points

Do you think this squad is superior to say 2 SWSs with sniper rifles (72pts total)? They're cheaper and get more sniper hits, but don't have the autocannon or camo cloaks.

Also, in terms of comparisons with plasma/melta vets, do you never find yourself wanting to move them?

**TheSilo**

Peregrine wrote:
TheSilo wrote:
The thing is, snipers have 36" and only cost 2 points. That gives them a much larger threat range and more targets to pick. So comparing them straight up with the 10 point 12" melta gun or the 15 point 24" plasma isn't a good comparison.

Ok, let's compare per point then, using a T6/3+ MC as the target and ignoring the lasguns (which are seldom relevant and the same on both squads):

86 point sniper + AC vets = 0.85 wounds = 101 points per wound.

120 point carapace + plasma vets at 12-24" = 1.33 wounds = 90 points per wound.

120 point carapace + plasma vets at 0-12" = 2.66 wounds = 45 points per wound.

So looks like even against the ideal target for a sniper squad the plasma vets just dominate. And, unlike the sniper vets, the melta/plasma vets are actually useful against vehicles/TEQs/etc. Conclusion: if you want sniper rifles take ratlings. If you're taking vets give them 3x melta or plasma and put them in a Chimera or Valkyrie.

You quoted my post and then missed the entire point. You can't compare them heads up. Though note that anything with a 4+ save or worse, the autocannon and snipers will be better value against. The key to their success is also range, 36" gives them a free selection of targets every turn, while 24" plasma and 12" melta can get stuck out of position. Also consider a case where sniper vets get Bring It Down, but the plasma vets inside a chimera usually do not. It's about weighing what you need to add to your list, you can't say plasma vets are always better than sniper vets.

I also lost 4 plasma troopers to gets hot in my last game, so I'm a bit biased.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, does anyone take plasma or meltaguns in their infantry platoons (including PCS and SWS)?

TheSilo wrote:
The thing is, snipers have 36" and only cost 2 points. That gives them a much larger threat range and more targets to pick. So comparing them straight up with the 10 point 12" melta gun or the 15 point 24" plasma isn't a good comparison.

Plasma and melta vets lead to a very destructive, but also fragile army list.

Vets with snipers, camo, and AC = 86 points

Do you think this squad is superior to say 2 SWSs with sniper rifles (72pts total)? They're cheaper and get more sniper hits, but don't have the autocannon or camo cloaks.

Also, in terms of comparisons with plasma/melta vets, do you never find yourself wanting to move them?

12 wounds with 6 snipers, BS3 gets 3 sniper hits.

Vs

10 wounds, with 3 snipers and AC, BS4 lands 2 snipers, 1.3 AC shots. So the vets are better at range, better lasguns, higher ld for orders. Have fewer wounds, but more durable with camo and snare mines.

I like special weapons teams, but the platoon tax and low ld hurt their viability for me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw if you want a real monster hunter unit, take a second CCS with plasma and an astropath. Psychic shriek is devastating against MCs.

**vipoid**

TheSilo wrote:

You quoted my post and then missed the entire point. You can't compare them heads up. Though note that anything with a 4+ save or worse, the autocannon and snipers will be better value against.

I wish I saw big units with 4+ armour - it would make a nice change.

All I seem to see are AV12 (or better) vehicles with 4+ Jink, or T6 MCs with 2+/5+ saves.

TheSilo wrote:

12 wounds with 6 snipers, BS3 gets 3 sniper hits.

Vs

10 wounds, with 3 snipers and AC, BS4 lands 2 snipers, 1.3 AC shots. So the vets are better at range, better lasguns, higher ld for orders. Have fewer wounds, but more durable with camo and snare mines.

Fair enough

TheSilo wrote:

I like special weapons teams, but the platoon tax and low ld hurt their viability for me.

Ah, I was thinking along the lines that you'd already have a platoon.

TheSilo wrote:

Btw if you want a real monster hunter unit, take a second CCS with plasma and an astropath. Psychic shriek is devastating against MCs.

Only if you can actually hit with the shriek. It's 50% and you probably won't get a second chance.