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What Is Your Opinion On The Missing Legions? I will give my theory when this poll is finished.

Well, I'm going to say other and here is why. And I do apologize for the wall of text.. Note that there are some spoilers from the Horus Heresy series involved.



Other: Now that I've ruled out the other choices, I don't really have an idea of what happened to the missing legions. Personally I like to think that they are stuck in the Warp, and when the need is great, they appear from nowhere, bursting out of a sulphurous cloud of flame, adorned with icons of the grave.

I think Destroyed in Battle is the most likely outcome. During the Unification Wars Salamanders almost got wiped out by undertaking some several months long underground mission (sabotaging some ancient power plant of the Ethnarchy of Caucasus IIRC). It's not unlikely other legions undertook similarly complex and dangerous tasks, and it's not unlikely some weren't successful and/or the forces involved suffered such casualties it was not sustainable to maintain them as an individual fighting force.

All of the above?

They probably were destroyed in battle and their deaths covered up to prevent morale issues. Sort of like the reasons Spartan IIs are never reported KIA.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well, I'm going to say other and here is why. And I do apologize for the wall of text.. Note that there are some spoilers from the Horus Heresy series involved.

Spoiler:

Corrupted by Chaos: If simple corruption was enough to have all records purged, and an angry glare from the Emperor if you dare mention the primarchs (not even by name), then we, the player base would have no knowledge about the various CSM chapters.

Rebelled For Other Reasons; See above. Also note that a good sized portion of the Dark Angels went renegade.

Destroyed in Battle: From the Horus Heresy books we know that at some point the Ultramarines gained a rather large number of Astartes from somewhere. Though not specifically mentioned to be the remains of the missing lgions, it is presumed that a good portion were folded in.

Mutation: We still have Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, White Scars, and Dark Angels.

Primarch died: The known Primarchs, know what happened. They also knew their missing brethren.

Abandoned the Imperium: I see this as the same as "Rebelled For Other Reasons".

Dark Truth: This idea has some merit, however, after getting decimated, Corax was given information on making new geneseed to make more Astartes. Magnus (and the Thousand Sons) knowledge of the Warp was second only to the Emperor and Eldar. If Magnus hadn't goofeed and let daemons into the throne room, they probably would have stayed loyal. Outside of Warp knowledge, and hidden super-human creating secrets, I can't think of anything that is so Dark to warrant a complete purging.

Other: Now that I've ruled out the other choices, I don't really have an idea of what happened to the missing legions. Personally I like to think that they are stuck in the Warp, and when the need is great, they appear from nowhere, bursting out of a sulphurous cloud of flame, adorned with icons of the grave.

"Abondoned The Imperium" isn't the same as "Rebelling For Other Reasons". Abandoned the Imperium just means that they deserted. As for the "Dark Truth", I'm not really sure what it is either, but it is a good reason to purge them forever. The Dark Angels keep the Fallen a secret as well to prevent certain bad things from happening, it's not like it's common knowledge. I actually think that chaos is a good theory and here's why:

People often brush away the chaos theory by asking why we have knowledge of traitor legions and primarchs. Imagine how demoraliding it would be to imperial troops to hear that a primarch was corrupted by chaos. The Horus Heresy is different however, even a totalitarian regime such as the imperium could not cover that one up. "Then why don't we hear CSMs talking about them?" If you say this, you are thinking of chaos as Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch and Slaanesh. People who do say this forget that there is another chaos god: Malice. Malice is so hated and so feared by the chaos gods and their followers that they will not even speak with him. I believe that one legion was corrupted by Malice.

What is the mutation for Dark Angels since they are listed as Mutations in Happyjew's post.

Davor wrote:
What is the mutation for Dark Angels since they are listed as Mutations in Happyjew's post.

I don't know.

I tend to think that, if there was a legion that was merged into the Ultramarines, then whatever happened was not the fault of that legion, but the fault of its Primarch. My personal theory to account for that is, since the Primarchs we know about landed on worlds with humans (IIRC), at least one of them may have landed on a purely Xenos world. Such a Primarch, raised entirely among nonhumans, might have a bit of an issue with the Great Crusade's "kill all the Xenos" approach. So, this Primarch may have turned his back on the Imperium and walked away (or even sided with his adoptive Xenos). Such an act, the rebellion of a son in favor of the enemy when the whole point of the Great Crusade is to show the might of Humanity, would definitely be the sort of thing that would get stamped out of all the books.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I tend to think that, if there was a legion that was merged into the Ultramarines, then whatever happened was not the fault of that legion, but the fault of its Primarch. My personal theory to account for that is, since the Primarchs we know about landed on worlds with humans (IIRC), at least one of them may have landed on a purely Xenos world. Such a Primarch, raised entirely among nonhumans, might have a bit of an issue with the Great Crusade's "kill all the Xenos" approach. So, this Primarch may have turned his back on the Imperium and walked away (or even sided with his adoptive Xenos). Such an act, the rebellion of a son in favor of the enemy when the whole point of the Great Crusade is to show the might of Humanity, would definitely be the sort of thing that would get stamped out of all the books.

It is stated that all of the Primarchs landed on human worlds.

I tend to think that either they defected from the Imperium for some reason, resulting in their being destroyed by the Imperial forces and then the action covered up for morale purposes, or that they somehow fell victim to something tragic, like how the Thousand Sons were uncontrollably mutating until Magnus was able to be found (who then stopped it).

It's definitely something that the remaining loyal Primarchs had a taboo against talking about, even during the times before the Heresy. So it's possible that even the men of the Legions did not know about it.

Heck, maybe there was something mundane, like maybe early on in the crusade during a campaign utilizing the majority of only those two legions, and something horrible happened like a life eater virus mishap destroying the entire world they were on (or just on their fleet ships). Then the survivors who were not deployed at the time got rolled into the Ultramarines. They are not talked about because of the sadness and insult of two legions and, even worse- their primarchs-dying to a stupid contamination mistake.

Windchild wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I tend to think that, if there was a legion that was merged into the Ultramarines, then whatever happened was not the fault of that legion, but the fault of its Primarch. My personal theory to account for that is, since the Primarchs we know about landed on worlds with humans (IIRC), at least one of them may have landed on a purely Xenos world. Such a Primarch, raised entirely among nonhumans, might have a bit of an issue with the Great Crusade's "kill all the Xenos" approach. So, this Primarch may have turned his back on the Imperium and walked away (or even sided with his adoptive Xenos). Such an act, the rebellion of a son in favor of the enemy when the whole point of the Great Crusade is to show the might of Humanity, would definitely be the sort of thing that would get stamped out of all the books.

It is stated that all of the Primarchs landed on human worlds.

The 18 we know about, sure. The whole point of having two of them completely struck from all records and histories means anything that is said about them is often conjecture, assumption, or speculation. Barring the Emperor, another Primarch, or someone wlse "who was there" stepping forth and revealing the truth, anyway. The story may simply be told as they "all" landed on human worlds purely because the truth of what really happened would be a threat to the Emperor's authority.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I tend to think that, if there was a legion that was merged into the Ultramarines, then whatever happened was not the fault of that legion, but the fault of its Primarch. My personal theory to account for that is, since the Primarchs we know about landed on worlds with humans (IIRC), at least one of them may have landed on a purely Xenos world. Such a Primarch, raised entirely among nonhumans, might have a bit of an issue with the Great Crusade's "kill all the Xenos" approach. So, this Primarch may have turned his back on the Imperium and walked away (or even sided with his adoptive Xenos). Such an act, the rebellion of a son in favor of the enemy when the whole point of the Great Crusade is to show the might of Humanity, would definitely be the sort of thing that would get stamped out of all the books.

I really like this theory.

Here is my opinion on the matter, and it may not match what the idea of the poll is, so I'll hide it in spoiler tags:

Dark Truth: This idea has some merit, however, after getting decimated, Corax was given information on making new geneseed to make more Astartes. Magnus (and the Thousand Sons) knowledge of the Warp was second only to the Emperor and Eldar. If Magnus hadn't goofeed and let daemons into the throne room, they probably would have stayed loyal. Outside of Warp knowledge, and hidden super-human creating secrets, I can't think of anything that is so Dark to warrant a complete purging.

How about knowledge of the Emperor's true nature that no one else in the setting knows? I'm just spitballing here, but didn't some xenos or something look at the Emperor with Witchsight and see something terrifying? And there's that old theory that the "Emperor" was an artificial construct with Malcador the Sigilite pulling the puppet strings. Imagine if one of the Primarchs discovered that the Emperor wasn't really human (or superhuman or used to be a bunch of humans, anyway). That'd be a pretty Imperium shattering secret, what with the human supremacist philosophy the whole thing is based on.

As for all the people saying that they were left blank by GW for players to fill in, OK. WE GET IT. But that was back then. A ton of stuff thrown out in the HH series was never intended to be in the original fluff back in the 80's. They could still very well decide to fill them in at some point in the future. Also, sometimes speculation is just fun. Although yeah, people need to stick with just one of these threads. It seems like a bunch of repeated threads are cropping up lately.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well, I'm going to say other and here is why. And I do apologize for the wall of text.. Note that there are some spoilers from the Horus Heresy series involved.

Spoiler:

Corrupted by Chaos: If simple corruption was enough to have all records purged, and an angry glare from the Emperor if you dare mention the primarchs (not even by name), then we, the player base would have no knowledge about the various CSM chapters.

Rebelled For Other Reasons; See above. Also note that a good sized portion of the Dark Angels went renegade.

Destroyed in Battle: From the Horus Heresy books we know that at some point the Ultramarines gained a rather large number of Astartes from somewhere. Though not specifically mentioned to be the remains of the missing lgions, it is presumed that a good portion were folded in.

Mutation: We still have Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, White Scars, and Dark Angels.

Primarch died: The known Primarchs, know what happened. They also knew their missing brethren.

Abandoned the Imperium: I see this as the same as "Rebelled For Other Reasons".

Dark Truth: This idea has some merit, however, after getting decimated, Corax was given information on making new geneseed to make more Astartes. Magnus (and the Thousand Sons) knowledge of the Warp was second only to the Emperor and Eldar. If Magnus hadn't goofeed and let daemons into the throne room, they probably would have stayed loyal. Outside of Warp knowledge, and hidden super-human creating secrets, I can't think of anything that is so Dark to warrant a complete purging.

Other: Now that I've ruled out the other choices, I don't really have an idea of what happened to the missing legions. Personally I like to think that they are stuck in the Warp, and when the need is great, they appear from nowhere, bursting out of a sulphurous cloud of flame, adorned with icons of the grave.

...Dark Angels have no mutations. How the hell are they subject to mutations?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well, I'm going to say other and here is why. And I do apologize for the wall of text.. Note that there are some spoilers from the Horus Heresy series involved.

Spoiler:

Corrupted by Chaos: If simple corruption was enough to have all records purged, and an angry glare from the Emperor if you dare mention the primarchs (not even by name), then we, the player base would have no knowledge about the various CSM chapters.

Rebelled For Other Reasons; See above. Also note that a good sized portion of the Dark Angels went renegade.

Destroyed in Battle: From the Horus Heresy books we know that at some point the Ultramarines gained a rather large number of Astartes from somewhere. Though not specifically mentioned to be the remains of the missing lgions, it is presumed that a good portion were folded in.

Mutation: We still have Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, White Scars, and Dark Angels.

Primarch died: The known Primarchs, know what happened. They also knew their missing brethren.

Abandoned the Imperium: I see this as the same as "Rebelled For Other Reasons".

Dark Truth: This idea has some merit, however, after getting decimated, Corax was given information on making new geneseed to make more Astartes. Magnus (and the Thousand Sons) knowledge of the Warp was second only to the Emperor and Eldar. If Magnus hadn't goofeed and let daemons into the throne room, they probably would have stayed loyal. Outside of Warp knowledge, and hidden super-human creating secrets, I can't think of anything that is so Dark to warrant a complete purging.

Other: Now that I've ruled out the other choices, I don't really have an idea of what happened to the missing legions. Personally I like to think that they are stuck in the Warp, and when the need is great, they appear from nowhere, bursting out of a sulphurous cloud of flame, adorned with icons of the grave.

...Dark Angels have no mutations. How the hell are they subject to mutations?

That just goes to show how good they really are at covering things up.

Honestly, I find it interesting that everybody gets upset about me claiming the Dark Angels have mutations, but not Ultramarines or White Scars.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well, I'm going to say other and here is why. And I do apologize for the wall of text.. Note that there are some spoilers from the Horus Heresy series involved.

Spoiler:

Corrupted by Chaos: If simple corruption was enough to have all records purged, and an angry glare from the Emperor if you dare mention the primarchs (not even by name), then we, the player base would have no knowledge about the various CSM chapters.

Rebelled For Other Reasons; See above. Also note that a good sized portion of the Dark Angels went renegade.

Destroyed in Battle: From the Horus Heresy books we know that at some point the Ultramarines gained a rather large number of Astartes from somewhere. Though not specifically mentioned to be the remains of the missing lgions, it is presumed that a good portion were folded in.

Mutation: We still have Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, White Scars, and Dark Angels.

Primarch died: The known Primarchs, know what happened. They also knew their missing brethren.

Abandoned the Imperium: I see this as the same as "Rebelled For Other Reasons".

Dark Truth: This idea has some merit, however, after getting decimated, Corax was given information on making new geneseed to make more Astartes. Magnus (and the Thousand Sons) knowledge of the Warp was second only to the Emperor and Eldar. If Magnus hadn't goofeed and let daemons into the throne room, they probably would have stayed loyal. Outside of Warp knowledge, and hidden super-human creating secrets, I can't think of anything that is so Dark to warrant a complete purging.

Other: Now that I've ruled out the other choices, I don't really have an idea of what happened to the missing legions. Personally I like to think that they are stuck in the Warp, and when the need is great, they appear from nowhere, bursting out of a sulphurous cloud of flame, adorned with icons of the grave.

...Dark Angels have no mutations. How the hell are they subject to mutations?

That just goes to show how good they really are at covering things up.

Honestly, I find it interesting that everybody gets upset about me claiming the Dark Angels have mutations, but not Ultramarines or White Scars.

....Because Dark Angels have no records of ever producing a Chapter that is mutated, and are even stated to be 100% pure.

People disagree with you because you're absolutely wrong and contradicted through known evidence and statements from the fluff itself. We also know however that Ultramarines are certainly subject to mutation, as some of their successors IIRC are mutated. Which is smoking gun to the supposed purity of their geneseed, same with White Scars.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
...Dark Angels have no mutations. How the hell are they subject to mutations?

That just goes to show how good they really are at covering things up.

Honestly, I find it interesting that everybody gets upset about me claiming the Dark Angels have mutations, but not Ultramarines or White Scars.

....Because Dark Angels have no records of ever producing a Chapter that is mutated, and are even stated to be 100% pure.

People disagree with you because you're absolutely wrong and contradicted through known evidence and statements from the fluff itself. We also know however that Ultramarines are certainly subject to mutation, as some of their successors IIRC are mutated. Which is smoking gun to the supposed purity of their geneseed, same with White Scars.

Of course I'm wrong. I'd be rather surprised if no one called me out on it. I never stated my claims to be 100% based on fact. Some of the information I presented is from the Horus Heresy series (at least what I've read). Some of it is me poking fun. If you hadn't noticed, my claim as to what I like to think happened to them is pulled straight from the Legion of the Damned codex.

I really like the Xenos theory, it's the one that makes the most sense and logically seemse the most likely. Although, one thing that I like to think is that the other two were corrupted by chaos before being discovered but their Legions were so loyal to the Emperor that they couldn't corrupt their Legions and finally they just decided to kill the Emperor and then he squished them like bugs (in the Materium and immaterium)

What if their record was deleted not because of something they did, but because of something one or more of the loyal Legions did? To protect this (these) loyal Legion(s)?

Maybe one of the other Legions went ahead an eradicated one of the missing Legions, because of some real or imaginated heresy (or even more mundane reasons).

I'm fond of the concept that they are erased not for what they did but to protect another legion, to expand on the idea.

It wasnt unknown for the legions to come to blows with each other, there were several noted incidents of them killing each others marines (WE vs Space Wolves comes to mind). What if two of the primarchs, and thus their legions came to blows with each other when working together on a protracted campaign, the conflict escalated and by the time word reached the emperor one legion had been devastated, its primarch perhaps even killed by the other. The emperor would have had to choose to either expel or punish the victor and thus lose 2 whole legions, or to stick with the winner, removing all records of their indiscretion in order to keep at least one of the two legions. (Fond of the idea of this is where the Space Wolves are called the Emperors Executioners, perhaps not because they destroyed when beckoned, but because they were supported for their indiscretions).

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Heck, maybe there was something mundane, like maybe early on in the crusade during a campaign utilizing the majority of only those two legions, and something horrible happened like a life eater virus mishap destroying the entire world they were on (or just on their fleet ships). Then the survivors who were not deployed at the time got rolled into the Ultramarines. They are not talked about because of the sadness and insult of two legions and, even worse- their primarchs-dying to a stupid contamination mistake.

Quite like that as theory, its not very 'epic' it makes as much sense as anything. One of the lost primarchs as you say could have died in a ridiculous manner and the Emperor is so ashamed/upset he just draws a line under it, partly because its painful and partly because for the children of god to die in such an inglorious way is not conducive to Imperial propaganda.

Another theory, at least on one of these guys: He doesn't bow when the Emperor turns up. We're talking about men who became gods on the planets they landed on and when dad turned up they instinctively accepted him as their lord. Doesn't have to be the case for all of them. They're not identical clones. Primarch X could have very well recognised the Emperor's power but simply didn't wish to serve and told him to bugger off.

That's interesting on a number of levels. After all its not like Horus rebelling, in this case the Primarch isn't abandoning him, he never knew him (technically Dad abandoned him) and when the time comes he is too proud to accept he isn't number one. He could have become a Mahdi figure on his adopted homeworld, leading his own (much smaller) crusade to unite the galaxy under his rule and when he comes across the 'real' god he refuses to back down. The Emperor, knowing he cannot let anything as powerful as a primarch run around is forced to destroy him. It is covered up both for being a defiance of the Emperor (by his own son no less) and because it is a dark, painful chapter of the Great Crusade.

Hell the other legions would certainly be involved in destroying their brother, which foreshadows things like Prospero and Horus' chip on his shoulder and explains the way the issue is treated in the books and elsewhere. Imagine the primarchs talking with their brother, trying to convince him to join the family business but his pride is too much and eventually he is killed by his own father simply for not following the path he had no say in creating. No matter how awesome you are, you're always second best, something that's pretty hard to swallow if you're a demigod and what's more you must serve the Emperor -you're his creature- if you don't you get put down. Quite Frankenstein-esque stuff. I think tends to be forgotten in all the epic hero stuff, the primarchs are monstrous freaks with little connection to normal human beings.

EDIT: Or not as fun in a Greek tragedy way, Primarch X simply doesn't want to be a primarch. All the brothers are presented as Alexander the Great incarnate, inherent warriors but just because you're good at something doesn't mean you want to do it. For a historical example, Murad II of the Ottoman Empire, a gifted general and beloved ruler who abdicated twice because he was tired of war and just wanted to read poetry (and had to come back twice because his son kept fething up). Say the Emperor lands to find the world has been united by Primarch X but someone else is ruling, X having become sickened by warfare and government and is relaxing in isolation. The Emperor demands he join him but X is basically now a pacifist and though he recognizes his father, is open about never raising his sword ever again. Again not willing to let his super weapon leads his own life the Emperor puts a bullet through his brain.

In one of the horus heresy novels there was a mention relating to the wolves being you leashed against another legion.... 'it wasn't the first time' I forget the actual quote but it almost made it sound as though the wolves were sent to decimate another legion. Plus given they are the emperors executioners brings up another question how did they get that title in the first place?

Thousand suns horus heresy novel