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Hello all.

I have a simple question - are Razorbacks actually worth taking Over Rhinos?

Personally I don't think so as the ultimate point of both of them is troop transport so they need to take their load to the objective as soon as possible - this means that they will be going full out and won't have time to shoot.

As they are both lightly armoured, they would be more easily destroyed by the enemy so having a big gun would present them as a viable and easily hit target so having an unarmed Rhino might "sneak" into position.

Have I got this wrong?

Unless you don't look at Razorbacks as troop transports, but cheap weapons platforms.

^is right.

If that's how you would play a Razorback, save your self twenty points and either DP or Rhino them about.

I think if you look at Razorbacks as a transport first and foremost, you'll be dissapointed; with no fire ports, no Assault bonus and only a 6-man capacity, they're a little underwhelming, and when it comes to moving guys around, Rhinos basically do the job better.

However, some other ways of looking at it are these:

- There's the old issue of whether or not to take Heavy weapons in mobile Tactical Squads, and many say not to bother as it will just slow them down. Enter the Razorback, a Heavy Weapon platform that can keep pace with your infantry on foot, and if need be protect half the squad from small arms, keeping what would be the 'useless' half of a no-Heavy Tactical Squad safe for ObSec capturing and kill point denial. Obviously, it can also contribute some mobility if you need to scoot over to an objective.

- In MSU lists, it allows you to keep your units minimally sized, but without losing out on the Heavy Weapon you sacrifce to do so.

- If running a tank list, it throws up some more target priority questions for the opponent; where a Rhino can be largely ignored in favour of a Vindicator or Pred, a Razorback has enough of a kick that it is a valid target, forcing your oppoenent to skip some targets or split their firepower.

I run a combination of rhinos and lasbacks in my Gk purifier lists. I run the 4 heavy weapons in the rhino with the fire points and the other half in razorbacks with TL las cannons. it works pretty effectively as a transport and pocket tank. then again, purifiers don't need to assault the turn they disembark to be effective, so this may not be the best example for your situation.

How can four heavy weapons work well out of a vehicle that only lets two models shoot out? I don't see it.

As a Space Wolves player I've been struggling both ways with this one and that codex has such a lock on its' internal balance it's hard to decide. If you opt out of the pods for your basic troops it's not hard to have a fleet of these things with Blood Claws in them, but the question I always find myself asking is "are they really any good?" Is a TL Assault Cannon going to do damage worthy of replacing 5 bodies?

I find the Las/Plas version, though very popular, to be somewhat lacking because if you are moving one of the weapons usually has to snap fire. If it's the lascannon you might as well not even shoot, and if it's the plasma guns you run a decent chance you will burn a hull point off. So I always opt for TL Assault Cannons, personally -- I just find them more reliable, and the shorter range seems more conducive to an early-game push.

What I've found works best, sadly, is neither. If you take Rhinos, the squads inside will likely be bigger, and that isn't a bad thing but it means you will have far less tanks on the board due to point expenditures on those bodies. But if you go Razorbacks, you find yourself creating more targets but ones which are easier to kill off or dislodge and ones whose damage output is more limited.

The answer seems to be a mix, but the point investment horrifies me in that regard. A Grey Hunter unit at 10 men with decent gear in a Rhino is around 250+ points; A dirt-cheap-but-barely-effective Assault Cannon Razorback crewed by Blood Claws is around ~140-150ish (with a flamer thrown in, just because). Pairing these two ides together I used to go 2 Rhino units and three TLAC Razorbacks, but the massive increased cost of Grey Hunters this go around makes it suck to try this (like 950 points of list gone, for only a handful of Rhino hulls and some mostly withstandable shots).

I really can't decide what to do with my Wolves, but it seems more and more like it's best to ignore the troops and their vehicles entirely.

 timmythetool wrote:
Hello all.

I have a simple question - are Razorbacks actually worth taking Over Rhinos?

Personally I don't think so as the ultimate point of both of them is troop transport so they need to take their load to the objective as soon as possible - this means that they will be going full out and won't have time to shoot.

As they are both lightly armoured, they would be more easily destroyed by the enemy so having a big gun would present them as a viable and easily hit target so having an unarmed Rhino might "sneak" into position.

Have I got this wrong?

Yeah I pretty much agree with your assessment. IMHO, Razorbacks are too expensive for what you get (in a vacuum at least), and aren't a particularly effective transport. They can have their uses though - the more you take, the better they will perform. In general, they fit an armour saturation or gunline army best.

For the points, a Razorback is a very handy 3rd-'half' of a combat squadded unit. Keep the heavy half at a back objective, run the rest up mid-table, and move the Razorback around or park as required.

Razorbacks and Rhinos server different roles. So for pure transport Rhino is much better. For mobile close fire support, or troop deterent the heavy weapon options of the Razorback work better. And a las or las/plas Razorback can sync nicely with devastator squads for just a little more AT in the heavy slot.

I generally take razorbacks, because you get an extra bit of firepower, but the problem is they are destroyed very quickly

I spammed them pretty hard in 5th edition. In 6th they'd be fairly worthless...

7th? IMO they aren't awful per se, just outclassed by Drop Pods and Rhinos for what they do. If the issue is target saturation, just go unbound or double force org and run more Predators.

Pretty useful in BA lists. Fast, so can fire both weapons at full BS if you go las/plas, also objective secured and can carry 5 bolter dudes to sit on a separate objective. Running them in multiple is a pretty good idea and people will shoot the gak out of them, although, I've had games where people have largely ignored my HB razorback whilst it dashed around scoring objectives.

D

A Lascannon Razorback sat at the back with a Dev squad can work well as they synergise. I run a 4x ML dev squad who have the primary goal of blowing up light armour early in the game and then if thngs go to plan taking out infantry with frag missiles later. Parking a LC Razorback with them not only gives a twin linked S9 shot (valuable if you have bad dice against something with your missiles) but also lets you redeploy your devs if something goes wrong.

I like them but they are really a fire platform and best put with a unit that matches.

I have contemplated running a Melta Sternguard team in one and putting heavy Flamers on it to clear a hole to get the melta in, problem being the rear armour is paper and as soon as your opponent realises there's 200pts plus of meltas bundling towards their big juicy tank you will lose it. Drop pods work better,

The third thing to bear in mind is that they are scoring if assigned to troops, a five man TAC squad in one equipped with heavy Bolters could mean you hold a mid table objective longer as your opponent needs to divert some AT to it as well as a to infantry to dislodge the marines, and those 3 extra twin linked S5 shots could hold off the infantry for another turn.

It's a useful thing, but in my opinion the Rhino is the smarter choice.