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So, a friend and I were looking at our armies and I realized that I'm 2/5 of the way through completing my Deathwing company. As as ork player he has a ton of boys and we got to talking. Could 100 terminators take out 800 orks? His argument was that the WAAGHH would be too much and I'd be tabled. I, however, stated that we'd cause enough damage to rout them while enduring a ton of shots/attacks. Either way, it would make for an awesome game. If it ever took place, I'll be sure to post it here. What do you guys think? Who would win?

It dice theory, orks would win.

But due to the fact there is a limit of how many orks can be in range at once, the termies would win.

Mathematically, if you were somehow able to maeuver 800 orks so that every one of them could strike in a turn, they'd lose 100 orks to the Terminators going first, then strike back and kill 117 terminators.

More practically, with the rules for who can fight, the Terminators could feasibly win with proper bottle-necking.

Brings lots of flamers and put the Deathwing up in chokepoints and play the game Space Hulk style.

I would like to see 800 painted orks. Someone brings that to a table, I'll forfeit.

I think it'd be the next day before they got to T2, anyhow

In the fluff, The Deathwing would win without a doubt!

In game, I'd put money on the Orks, simply due to volume of attacks, the fact the DW can't sweep and every turn they're held up, more Orks can join the throng.

We're talking bout mellee or shooting? One squad or lots of squads?

Anywayz, there'd be so much dice thrown that the table will collapse and both armies will go down simultaniously.

Can I just say that this is a game I'd really love to see. I have a soft spot for games that come down to 'quality vs quantity'. And, I think a game with no transports or big monsters would make a nice change.

Anyway, I would probably side with the Orks. They have a lot of shots and/or attacks, and stand a decent chance of drowning the terminators in bodies.

Of course, this is without me seeing the exact composition of either army, or the terrain. It could be that the latter favours the terminators by providing choke-points or the like.

In any case, you're not a real hero unless you win against the odds.

Assuming no cover or obstacles, and that everyone is in a giant equidistant line somehow at all times, and able to reach in combat. Also that the table is infinite and people can go as far as they need to.
Also assuming 100 storm bolter power fist termies vs 800 shooty choppa boys.

Termies shoot at max range: kill 66 boys.
Boys move up and run 9"
Termies back up and shoot from 21": kill 66 boys.
Boys move up and run 10"
Termies back up and shoot from 17": kill 66 boys.
Boys move up and run 9"
Termies back up and shoot from 14": kill 66 boys.
Boys move up and run 10"
Termies move up to seize the charge bonus while shooting": kill 66 boys.
Termies charge, 7 die to overwatch.
470 boys swing, 39 termies die.
54 charging termies swing back. 67 boys die. Orks need heroic morale or good mob rule results.

Normally, of the 14 mobs left, 2 will stay in the fight, 4 will flee, and the other 8 will stay while squabbling, losing another 12 boys. At this point there are a ton of variables such as how far the fleeing units run, but I'm just gonna press on assuming that the boys are magically fearless and all squads fight to the end.

403 boys swing: 34 termies die.
20 termies swing back: 17 boys die.
386 boys swing: Termies are dead.

Adding in 10 typhoons and assault cannons to the squads would increase the kills per shooting round to 112 boys. Only 340 boys would be alive to get charged in that scenario. 5 Termies go down to overwatch, 28 more to melee. 67 swing back on the charge killing 84 boys. Again assuming the boys are somehow fearless, this continues with:
256 boys swing. 21 Termies die.
46 Termies swing back. 38 boys die.
218 boys swing. 18 Termies die.
28 Termies swing back. 23 boys die.
195 boys swing. 16 Termies die.
12 Termies swing back. 10 boys die.
185 boys swing. Termies are dead.

Needless to say, this situation is close to impossible to actually occur unless you actually set the rules as such. Also, if you actually let morale apply to the orks, they lose more boys, and some boys waste time running away, regrouping, and coming back, but they most likely still end up winning, especially given that returning ork mobs will get furious charge.

Either way, boys are absolutely amazing for their piddly point cost, and terminators are not.

Interesting. According to your math-hammer the Termies wouldn't even be able to take on 8-1 odds and yet in the fluff if would be more like 80-1 if not more.

I really wish this game was more fluffy.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Assuming no cover or obstacles, and that everyone is in a giant equidistant line somehow at all times, and able to reach in combat. Also that the table is infinite and people can go as far as they need to.
Also assuming 100 storm bolter power fist termies vs 800 shooty choppa boys.

Termies shoot at max range: kill 66 boys.
Boys move up and run 9"
Termies back up and shoot from 21": kill 66 boys.
Boys move up and run 10"
Termies back up and shoot from 17": kill 66 boys.
Boys move up and run 9"
Termies back up and shoot from 14": kill 66 boys.
Boys move up and run 10"
Termies move up to seize the charge bonus while shooting": kill 66 boys.
Termies charge, 7 die to overwatch.
470 boys swing, 39 termies die.
54 charging termies swing back. 67 boys die. Orks need heroic morale or good mob rule results.

Normally, of the 14 mobs left, 2 will stay in the fight, 4 will flee, and the other 8 will stay while squabbling, losing another 12 boys. At this point there are a ton of variables such as how far the fleeing units run, but I'm just gonna press on assuming that the boys are magically fearless and all squads fight to the end.

403 boys swing: 34 termies die.
20 termies swing back: 17 boys die.
386 boys swing: Termies are dead.

Adding in 10 typhoons and assault cannons to the squads would increase the kills per shooting round to 112 boys. Only 340 boys would be alive to get charged in that scenario. 5 Termies go down to overwatch, 28 more to melee. 67 swing back on the charge killing 84 boys. Again assuming the boys are somehow fearless, this continues with:
256 boys swing. 21 Termies die.
46 Termies swing back. 38 boys die.
218 boys swing. 18 Termies die.
28 Termies swing back. 23 boys die.
195 boys swing. 16 Termies die.
12 Termies swing back. 10 boys die.
185 boys swing. Termies are dead.

Needless to say, this situation is close to impossible to actually occur unless you actually set the rules as such. Also, if you actually let morale apply to the orks, they lose more boys, and some boys waste time running away, regrouping, and coming back, but they most likely still end up winning, especially given that returning ork mobs will get furious charge.

Either way, boys are absolutely amazing for their piddly point cost, and terminators are not.

Well, hang on. How about Termies fire Cyclones at 48"? Boys can't win a long distance shooting game, and it's 2 burst S4 x 20 units. And as they close in you have heavy flamers, plus rout issues that turn into a holy mess. And, each model takes up 1", meaning they'll push their own units out of range (800 25mm models back to back occupy a solid block 40" accross and 20" deep). In order to close in as a horde, they make themselves vulnerable to burst.

If it isn't a barren wasteland, that many units make very inefficient use of space, and they can be funneled unto choke points a la Thermopylae.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not giving the fight to the Terminators, but model mechanics really mess it up for Orks.

By the way, it's not really fair to ignore rout, because the Terminators will stand their ground, while Boyz will split up, turn, run, and make life miserable for the other ones trying to assault. The ones running away will impede the ones attacking, because they will physically take up tons of space. Of course, the terminator player should exploit this and pick off enough from each squad to force rolls.

But would the orks then cost 80 times less than a terminator?

 Otto Weston wrote:
Interesting. According to your math-hammer the Termies wouldn't even be able to take on 8-1 odds and yet in the fluff if would be more like 80-1 if not more.

I really wish this game was more fluffy.

I think the problem is that following the fluff to that degree would make the required model count ridiculous.

I mean, one of the quotes seems to value a single Space Marine as being worth more than 1000 guardsmen. So, if a SM player wanted to include just 2 models, his IG opponent would need 2000+.

bertmac wrote:
But would the orks then cost 80 times less than a terminator?

Well, it should be 8x, not 80x right?

Boyz with no options are 60 points per 10.

Wolf Guard Terminators are 99 points per 3 plus 33 for each additional. Assuming you take squads of 5, that's 165 per 5. Take an assault cannon, heavy flamer and cyclone and you're at +55=220. There are other pricey options like TH, too, whereas boyz have only a couple of weak (and cheap) weapon upgrades.

So stock units, it would be 60:330, and upgraded 70:440.

So, call it between 550-650 Boyz to 100 Terminators to keep it... uh.... fair

Frankly, 60 Orks would have an easier time taking out 10 terminators than 600 vs 100 (because they wouldn't trip over each other as much). However, cyclone is still a big problem. You get 4 bursts at 48", and the Boyz can't respond until at least 24" (if they have a rokkit launcha). That's if they ever get off a shot, because in 2 turns, the orks could already be routing pretty bad.

Following the fluff would make the game no fun. Yeah, it's great fun to have an army of 100 invulnerable Terminators. But seeing your huge amounts of Orks (expensive, additionally) die in masses, hoping for lucky rolls, is just not much fun.

A game is always a trade off, between extremes in many dimensions. Nobody wants to roll on a table if his minis have to go to the toilet in a turn. "Buuuuuut this is so unrealistic". People want it to be complex, yet balanced. Dice rolls have to be a part, but not too much luck and not too many dice rolls. It has to simulate everything, but still be fun. And so on.

I don't think you can depict such a set up to be fun in terms of a nice game. It would rather be fun in terms of being an experiment and something unusual and spectacular.

Also when taking the physical models into account for the math, remember the casualties are coming off the front. The orcs should be blown a few inches back every round.

Talys wrote:

Well, hang on. How about Termies fire Cyclones at 48"? Boys can't win a long distance shooting game, and it's 2 burst S4 x 20 units. And as they close in you have heavy flamers, plus rout issues that turn into a holy mess. And, each model takes up 1", meaning they'll push their own units out of range (800 25mm models back to back occupy a solid block 40" accross and 20" deep). In order to close in as a horde, they make themselves vulnerable to burst.

If it isn't a barren wasteland, that many units make very inefficient use of space, and they can be funneled unto choke points a la Thermopylae.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not giving the fight to the Terminators, but model mechanics really mess it up for Orks.

By the way, it's not really fair to ignore rout, because the Terminators will stand their ground, while Boyz will split up, turn, run, and make life miserable for the other ones trying to assault. The ones running away will impede the ones attacking, because they will physically take up tons of space. Of course, the terminator player should exploit this and pick off enough from each squad to force rolls.

I believe I covered all that when I called the situation close to impossible without setting the rules for it to happen. Whereas the mathhammer favors the orks, the actual reality would probably favor the termies, what with only the closest 100 boys being relevant, wounds being taken from the boys' front ranks, morale checks up and down the ork lines every round, difficult terrain all up in their business...but on the flip side, in a real game simulation, the orks would have cover saves cutting all shooting casualties by a third or more depending on if it's cover or ruins, and the terminators wouldn't have a giant stretch of land to keep backpeddling on. The orks would corner them at the edge of the table far sooner than they catch them in my mathhammering. It's a much closer battle than the math indicates because of these factors. If you want to take a day calculating that instead of the 5 minutes I used to do the quick version, be my guest.

Someone needs to actually do this for a game and see whether the ork numbers actually win through or if the Terminators win by funneling + morale.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Someone needs to actually do this for a game and see whether the ork numbers actually win through or if the Terminators win by funneling + morale.

Shouldn't be too difficult. Not at 800 vs 100 but at 10%, 80 vs 10. That is doable. Or better yet, field a Green Tide against a comparable point value of Termmies and see what happens.

A good choke point, lots of flamers\concentrated template weapons wouokd thin things out and reduce there numbers they can bring to bear.

Then a strong reserve to counter any flankers or jump packs. Behind the main defence points

Most of the mob would be basically useless and stood behind doing nothing.

Someone did do something similar to this thread in an actual report.

iirc, it was something like 300 terminators versus endless waves of tyranids.

Rules manipulation also helps. Take minimum squads of Orks so that the Termies will be wasting entire squads shooting to kill three orcs Turn 2 and on, preventing mass deaths from 30 Boyz squads.

I saw a good one by thor665 I believe did a termies wall vs a huge ork force.
Somewhere on dakka bat reps

i had a similar situation. I was playing my flesh tearers and took Caernarvon(counts as astorath the grim) Gabriel seth and 2x30 death company. RAPTOR allies had lias issodon(to infiltrate the DC blobs) with 5 snipers, vs termispam, Termies won because i didn't bothered bringing fists or hammers, he has passed around 30 2+ saves in one round of combat.... But it was fun watching him trying to back off of 60 bloodcrazy psychopaths and attempting to shoot them in one round

TT I think Orks would win. Fluff wise terminators would win. Hell, the way some space marine fluff is written I'd say 10 termies would easily beat 800 orks

 BobNT wrote:
TT I think Orks would win. Fluff wise terminators would win. Hell, the way some space marine fluff is written I'd say 10 termies would easily beat 800 orks

Well thats fairly realistic, theres more than 8,000 rounds for one assault cannon isnt there?

You know, that'd actually be 2 legal lists.

Anywayz, greentide is a bit different. It's a hell ton of running + charging fearless boyz with fnp and a load of pk's.

If you just take 100 termies vs 800 boyz in a regular game, first of all, it won't get finished within 7 turns - that's for sure. Secondly, it's gona depend on terrain A LOT. And will depend on what termies are they. Power fist/thunder hammer ones will loose in mellee. While something like dual lightning claw will be wonderful to chop enough boyz not to get attacked in return at all.

Also, 700 shootaboyz will just drown termies in dakka while 800 choppaboyz won't be that obvious.

So, it can be played in many wayz with different results depending on what termies or boyz are there.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Someone did do something similar to this thread in an actual report.

iirc, it was something like 300 terminators versus endless waves of tyranids.

I think this is what you were referencing:

A lot of orks vs a lot of termies
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/598327.page#6891692

115 vs orks, wagons, trucks, deff coptas, and anything else you can add.

Deepstrike with flamers or huddle a corner with cyclones abusing their superior range...?