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I'm pretty new to IG, could anyone give me advice in terms of how to beat this GK list with then:

(It uses the GK FoC)
- Draigo
- Librarian (ML3), Had an artefact that gives him an extra power and lets him and friendly psykers reroll 1s on psychic tests
- ~10 Terminators with Psycannon, 1-2 Daemonhammers and some Falchions (I can't remember the exact composition)
- Strike Squad with Psycannon, Daemonhammer and probably something else.
- Dreadknight with Personal Teleporter, Sword, Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon
- Dreadknight with Personal Teleporter, Sword, Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon

Basically, Draigo and the Librarian go with the terminators - which then deep strike on the first turn (either normally, or starting on the field and using the Gate of Infinity power). They then proceed to obliterate a swathe of infantry with Cleansing Flame. The Dreadknights likewise teleport up, generally removing a Veteran squad each. Draigo is positioned at the front of the terminator squad, allowing him to tank most wounds on his 2++ invulnerable - upgraded from a 3++ via sanctuary (with him having 4 wounds and EW).


Any advice for fighting this list? I'm looking for suggestions in terms of both models and tactics. The only reservation is that I don't want to use allies.

Also, I'd originally intended to eventually expand my collection into an pure (or almost pure) infantry army. My question is, is there any point? Is infantry IG even viable in 7th? It just seems like everything (and especially the above) can sweep masses of infantry off the field, without breaking a sweat.

I personally hate playing against GK's, the games suck especially when the guy takes a cheese list but doesn't see it.

My advice would be plasma vets in Tauroxes to keep them safe. Basically just spam plasma.
Use fear tactics, make him scared to come to you; maybe make some noises to scare your opponent?
Also, use those plasma Leman Russes. Those should destroy him!

SGTPozy wrote:
I personally hate playing against GK's, the games suck especially when the guy takes a cheese list but doesn't see it.

My advice would be plasma vets in Tauroxes to keep them safe. Basically just spam plasma.

I guess I'll have to get more transports then.

I already use a ton of plasma, but when it takes 3 plasma vets rapid-firing to kill a single Dread Knight, I'm not sure I can even get enough into my list.

In any case, thanks for the advice.

Might I recommend wyverns. A squadron of 2 or 3 will be helpful against the terminators. They deepstrike into the perfect formation to suffer mass wounds. And since it's barrage, Draigo can't tank it unless a bad scatter. I would just bombard them and make them take 30+ armor saves. You will probably have to accept that you probably can't kill draigo until he is by himself. Pask in a punisher is an excellent way to deal with... anything. One volley from him and his buddy could drop a dreadnight. I am the opposite of you. My guard are fully mechanized. I love mech armies.

I used to play my GK against an IG opponent. He took 2-3 units of plasma vets and lascannons wherever he could, and positioned his units so that my DK's heavy incinerator couldn't hit the plasma carrying vets easily.

Besides that, he had a few Leman Russes (the plasma cannon kind with plasma sponsons should RUIN anything in his list...)

Now, I never ran the Heavy Psycannon before (this was all in 5th/6th edition before the new book) so I don't know how that impacts it. I can see it doing quite a bit more damage to the vet squads, though... but at lease you can get cover saves from it!

In addition to plamsa, you could take flyers. A leaf blower list would be hard to counter with that gk list.

Despite some boring sods insisting otherwise, Grey Knights are far from unbeatable. Pask in a Punisher with any other tank in his squad will annihilate a Dread Knight or a disturbing number of Terminators in one round of shooting, Plasma vets in boxes will do much the same. Honestly a Pask Squad, a few boxes full of plasma vets then whatever else tickles your fancy will do just fine. Kill the Dread Knights and put whatever psychic dice you have into denying his repeated deep striking, and he'll be waddling around the board.

I want to offer a dissenting opinion to some of the other poster above me. have you considered trying to out diddly your opponent? You mentioned that you eventually want to run an all infantry list. GK are a very elite army and one of their big drawbacks is that they can only engage a limited number of other units per turn. IG has the ability to put out more units than The Gk can deal with by the end of the game. fill up all of your slots with cheap mostly useless filler, special weapons of grenade launchers, and heavies mortar teams. or even forget any extras and just drown him in bodies. Draigo is great for breaking an enemies strong point, don't have one. bubble wrap your bubble wrap and make draigo slog through a new unit of cheap bodies every turn. yeah he can sweep the whole unit, but just charge him with another squad of conscripts and keep him immobile until the game ends. for dredknights take some demolitions squads and charge in and achieve glorious victory or die to the last man. for everything else FRFSRF with lasguns and make his termies die from weight of fire.

Use a conscript blob of 50 with a priest who'll keep denying the challenge to tie his units up. Whatever scares you most (DK or termies), just charge them and watch him squirm!

 GKTiberius wrote:
In addition to plamsa, you could take flyers.

I could, but I dislike fliers. I agree that they're useful - I just don't want to pollute my table by using them.

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
I want to offer a dissenting opinion to some of the other poster above me. have you considered trying to out diddly your opponent? You mentioned that you eventually want to run an all infantry list. GK are a very elite army and one of their big drawbacks is that they can only engage a limited number of other units per turn. IG has the ability to put out more units than The Gk can deal with by the end of the game. fill up all of your slots with cheap mostly useless filler, special weapons of grenade launchers, and heavies mortar teams. or even forget any extras and just drown him in bodies. Draigo is great for breaking an enemies strong point, don't have one. bubble wrap your bubble wrap and make draigo slog through a new unit of cheap bodies every turn. yeah he can sweep the whole unit, but just charge him with another squad of conscripts and keep him immobile until the game ends. for dredknights take some demolitions squads and charge in and achieve glorious victory or die to the last man. for everything else FRFSRF with lasguns and make his termies die from weight of fire.

I actually really like that idea.

My only concern is that I do play other lists (which include vehicles, fliers etc.). So, I'd still have to include at least some lascannons, meltas and the like.

That being said, I am planning to get a lot more infantry and Heavy Weapon Teams. So, if I can get enough, I'll definitely give something like that a try. Thanks.

SGTPozy wrote:
Use a conscript blob of 50 with a priest who'll keep denying the challenge to tie his units up. Whatever scares you most (DK or termies), just charge them and watch him squirm!

Lol. Again, this will have to wait until I can acquire an extra 50+ infantry, but I'll certainly give it a go when I can.

As others have said, the way to beat GK is masses of bodies. I recently had a game vs GK list similar to one you are facing and the guy conceded by turn 2 (it was a tournament so I was being a bit ruthless) because he had lost everything but a strike squad and driago whilst I still had 150 men on the field.

Conscripts with priests are you best friend. use them to tarpit anything you dont like. Back these up with an equal amount of Guardsmen and you will be very happy.

Now some people will disagree with me but if you are wanting to go pure infantry in the future do not take ANY tanks or vehicles or flyers! in pure infantry you need to stick to the golden rule of more men is ALWAYS better, and this will be especially effective vs GK they simply can not handle 150+ bodies at 1000pts

TL;DR: SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE!

With regard to infantry-heavy armies, what would you suggest for my HQ choices (that use FoC slots)?

- CCS?
- Lord Commissar?
- Yarrick?
- A mixture of the above?

Also, as a related question, how vital are Senior Officer Orders?

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
As others have said, the way to beat GK is masses of bodies. I recently had a game vs GK list similar to one you are facing and the guy conceded by turn 2 (it was a tournament so I was being a bit ruthless) because he had lost everything but a strike squad and driago whilst I still had 150 men on the field.

Any chance you could post your list?

Nonononono, whatever you do, do not hinge your entire plan on one model in a blob.

I know there is some discussion in YMDC on focused witchfires, which Draigo has, but regardless, he can and will most likely snipe out the priest with Purge Soul. (IMO focused witchfires most likely DON'T need to roll to hit, but thats another thread)

Further you need to remember the Libby will most likely roll Cleansing Flame. Which will of course murder blobs.

I can't believe I'm saying this but have you considered Ogryns? Putting them in front of a AV14 wall would be very good at giving the tanks 3+ cover iirc, and prevent the DK or Interceptor of DS Termies from charging in T2.

EDIT: The main reason I recommend Ogryns is because of their 3+ armor save which if it is with a priest can be rerollable for the first turn at least.

My list was (and still is, its my standard one):

CCS: Vox, MoO, Mortar
CCS: Vox, Mortar
Priest
Priest
Priest
Commissar
Commissar

Troops:
Platoons 1
PCS: Mortar and Vox
Squad 1: AC and GL and Vox
squad 2: AC and GL
squad 3: AC and GL
squad 4: AC and GL

Platoons 2 and 3 same as platoon 1

Platoon 4
PCS: Mortar and Vox
Squad 1: LC and Vox
squad 2: LC
squad 3: LC
squad 4: LC

Platoon 5 same as platoon 4

Total 240 men and 1850pts exactly!

To answer your question about HQs I always run at least one CCS. As you can see from my list I hide them out of line of site and use them to issue orders and fire indirect shots.

Since 7th I have run 2 but only because I don't use psykers (They don't fit in with my fluff among other reasons). Orders are absolutely 100% invaluable to a infantry army. Especially Senior officer ones.

Using fire on my target to remove cover saves is game changing as it means all those annoying wave serpents that people love to spam are much easier to kill. Bring It down should be your go to order for cracking open those more traditional tough targets.

Most people on dakka will say that the only order you need is First rank fire. that is not completely true for a pure infantry army. you actually want to be using Forwards for emperor much more as it really boosts your mobility and allows you to keep all your fire power!

Hope this helps and sorry for all the text! I tend to get carried away when talking about my guard tactics as its taken me a long time to perfect them!





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Nonononono, whatever you do, do not hinge your entire plan on one model in a blob.

I know there is some discussion in YMDC on focused witchfires, which Draigo has, but regardless, he can and will most likely snipe out the priest with Purge Soul. (IMO focused witchfires most likely DON'T need to roll to hit, but thats another thread)

Further you need to remember the Libby will most likely roll Cleansing Flame. Which will of course murder blobs.

I can't believe I'm saying this but have you considered Ogryns? Putting them in front of a AV14 wall would be very good at giving the tanks 3+ cover iirc, and prevent the DK or Interceptor of DS Termies from charging in T2.

EDIT: The main reason I recommend Ogryns is because of their 3+ armor save which if it is with a priest can be rerollable for the first turn at least.

I agree and disagree with you. Yes its best to double up where you can and have a commissar and a priest in blobs for redundancy. However, what a person has to get used to (and i did aswell) is that in a pure infantry list you are gonna lose men A LOT of men! so what if driago teleports in a makes removes a blob. the others just turn round and unload into him. Im not just saying this to prove a point its what I have had to do myself! dreadknight charges a blob of men? great i will kill eventually with priest war hymns.

That is the golden rule with Pure infantry guard! it doesn't matter how many men you lose, you will, without fail, grind you opponent down!

Just to provide a bit of proof to my points, here is a batrep with me vs a Nid player. In turn 2 I lose close to 100men. at the end of them game my opponent had 2 models left, and I had over 70!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjJTT6ni3WU

 Quickjager wrote:
Nonononono, whatever you do, do not hinge your entire plan on one model in a blob.

I know there is some discussion in YMDC on focused witchfires, which Draigo has, but regardless, he can and will most likely snipe out the priest with Purge Soul. (IMO focused witchfires most likely DON'T need to roll to hit, but thats another thread)

To be fair, sniping a priest with that power isn't exactly easy. He has to exceed the warp charge requirement of Purge Soul (otherwise he kills a guardsman or conscript), then he has to beat the priest's Ld, then the priest has to fail a 2+ LoS, and then the Priest has to fail a 4++ save. It really doesn't seem like something that will happen often.

 Quickjager wrote:

Further you need to remember the Libby will most likely roll Cleansing Flame. Which will of course murder blobs.

It averages about 6 wounds. It's unpleasant, sure, but on ~40-man infantry squads it's hardly the end of the world.

 Quickjager wrote:

I can't believe I'm saying this but have you considered Ogryns? Putting them in front of a AV14 wall would be very good at giving the tanks 3+ cover iirc, and prevent the DK or Interceptor of DS Termies from charging in T2.

EDIT: The main reason I recommend Ogryns is because of their 3+ armor save which if it is with a priest can be rerollable for the first turn at least.

I assume you mean Bullgryns. But, I really don't understand your logic. Where is this 3+ cover save coming from? Won't it just be a 5+ cover save? Also, I don't see the advantage of a 3+ save that's only rerollable in combat, when my opponent's entire army has AP3 (or better) weapons that also inflict instant-death.




Wow, that's a lot of men.

One thing though - don't you have problems with high-armour targets or MCs with 2+ saves? I mean, you only have 5 guns in your entire army that can hurt AV14 vehicles.

Also, how do you arrange your platoons? Do you combine all your squads, or leave some on their own?

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

To answer your question about HQs I always run at least one CCS. As you can see from my list I hide them out of line of site and use them to issue orders and fire indirect shots.

Since 7th I have run 2 but only because I don't use psykers (They don't fit in with my fluff among other reasons). Orders are absolutely 100% invaluable to a infantry army. Especially Senior officer ones.

Using fire on my target to remove cover saves is game changing as it means all those annoying wave serpents that people love to spam are much easier to kill. Bring It down should be your go to order for cracking open those more traditional tough targets.

Most people on dakka will say that the only order you need is First rank fire. that is not completely true for a pure infantry army. you actually want to be using Forwards for emperor much more as it really boosts your mobility and allows you to keep all your fire power!

Hope this helps and sorry for all the text! I tend to get carried away when talking about my guard tactics as its taken me a long time to perfect them!

No, that's a lot of help, thanks.

One thing though - do you think Yarrick would work in this sort of list, or is he too many points?

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

I agree and disagree with you. Yes its best to double up where you can and have a commissar and a priest in blobs for redundancy. However, what a person has to get used to (and i did aswell) is that in a pure infantry list you are gonna lose men A LOT of men! so what if driago teleports in a makes removes a blob. the others just turn round and unload into him. Im not just saying this to prove a point its what I have had to do myself! dreadknight charges a blob of men? great i will kill eventually with priest war hymns.

That is the golden rule with Pure infantry guard! it doesn't matter how many men you lose, you will, without fail, grind you opponent down!

Just to provide a bit of proof to my points, here is a batrep with me vs a Nid player. In turn 2 I lose close to 100men. at the end of them game my opponent had 2 models left, and I had over 70!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjJTT6ni3WU

Has 7th not changed this then? I mean, one of the things I've heard said about 7th is that many armies now do have the firepower to sweep infantry-guard off the table.

Glad to be of help. I have been playing Guard for 10 years and pure infantry guard for 4 years so I know a bit about it

1) I have 8 lascannons which my opponent has to chew through 60 other men before he can kill them (2 platoons, each with 4 squads and 4 lascannons). I buff them with bring it down and I find that these will kill 1 big things and badly damage another a turn.

Against 2+ saves models I either plink them with lascannons or drown them with weight of fire. In the game I had against GK he dropped down a big squad of paladins and killed a blob of men. I then got first rank fire of on 3 platoons with autocannons (2 of which were in rapid fire range). Approx 210 Lasgun shots, 24 auto cannon and 12 Krak Grenades later and there was only 3 models in the squad left.

2) In 6th I used a mix of blob and small units and rarely took voxs. In 7th I use all blobs and always take voxs as I need to get the most effectiveness out of orders.

3) I like Yarrick, but I have never used him. For me he is just too many points, for his cost I can get 40 conscripts and a priest. If you are only taking him for orders then a CCS is much cheaper and does the same job.

In pure infantry I have learnt the hard way that you need to spend each and every point very carefully. E.g. a power weapon on a commissar is cool, but rarely gets used more than once a game and will likely only kill 1 or 2 models. But 3 extra mortars will be firing all game and putting down a lot more wounds

4) I have not been tabled in 7th and I think that the reason many infantry guard players do get tabled is they wimp out half way through building a list. They get 150 men and think "thats enough" and then start taking wyverns and tanks. This is a sure way to lose nearly every game. At 1850 points I never leave home with less than 200 me. You will lose on average 30-40 men a turn so make sure that you have enough men to counter this (and it only takes 1 lucky shot to kill a tank).

They key to victory with guard is to stick 100% to your theme. If going mech take as many tanks as you can and take almost no infantry. Like wise in pure infantry never take and vehicles not even flyers. if someone tries to and mix and match all a player is doing is watering down the effectiveness of each element of his army.

The picture I have added is one of my army vs another GK player. Again notice the lack of GK models on the board after guard turn 3! Sorry if I missed any of your points but again I hope this clears things up and encourages you to play pure infantry guard (:

Ahh but that is the wonderful thing about Purge Soul, no saves of any kind are allowed, it is just a LD vs LD test. And it is only one warp charge essentially a 50/50 at worse.

Bullgryns are allowed to be equipped with Slab Shields, which conferred the cover save of 4+ to units behind them. Which would be used to screen the tanks from DK H Psycannon, their 3+ save would also let them take their armor save against the H Incinerator. Vehicles are allowed to be equipped with Camo netting still right 3+ save then? A Chimera with Plasma Vets in it would be a strong presence. This would be a decent chunk of points though. And you do want to go infantry so the trade off is there.

The Bullgryns role is essentially to make sure the tanks would survive the alpha strike. Of course a infantry list could be just as effective, and would easily take up much more space and therefore deny DS. Really depends on your taste in models then, what regiment you looking to field for IG?

 Quickjager wrote:
Ahh but that is the wonderful thing about Purge Soul, no saves of any kind are allowed, it is just a LD vs LD test. And it is only one warp charge essentially a 50/50 at worse.

It doesn't allow armour or cover saves, but invulnerable saves can still be taken.

 Quickjager wrote:

Bullgryns are allowed to be equipped with Slab Shields, which conferred the cover save of 4+ to units behind them. Which would be used to screen the tanks from DK H Psycannon, their 3+ save would also let them take their armor save against the H Incinerator.

Bullgryns can have a Slab Shield *OR* a 3+ armour save - not both.

 Quickjager wrote:
Vehicles are allowed to be equipped with Camo netting still right 3+ save then? A Chimera with Plasma Vets in it would be a strong presence. This would be a decent chunk of points though. And you do want to go infantry so the trade off is there.

Ah, I see. You didn't mention the camo netting before.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Glad to be of help. I have been playing Guard for 10 years and pure infantry guard for 4 years so I know a bit about it

1) I have 8 lascannons which my opponent has to chew through 60 other men before he can kill them (2 platoons, each with 4 squads and 4 lascannons). I buff them with bring it down and I find that these will kill 1 big things and badly damage another a turn.

Lol, I missed Platoon 5 when I read it before. Blimey.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

2) In 6th I used a mix of blob and small units and rarely took voxs. In 7th I use all blobs and always take voxs as I need to get the most effectiveness out of orders.

Interesting. I ask because one person talked about using one infantry squad from each platoon as a screening squad for the rest of said platoon.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

3) I like Yarrick, but I have never used him. For me he is just too many points, for his cost I can get 40 conscripts and a priest. If you are only taking him for orders then a CCS is much cheaper and does the same job.

Well, I was also considering survivability (both in terms of my orders and also in terms of not giving up a Warlord point). Also, I have a character who is pretty well represented by Yarrick, so it would be nice to use him for that reason.

I see your point though.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

In pure infantry I have learnt the hard way that you need to spend each and every point very carefully. E.g. a power weapon on a commissar is cool, but rarely gets used more than once a game and will likely only kill 1 or 2 models. But 3 extra mortars will be firing all game and putting down a lot more wounds

Well, as it stands, my blob squad seems to get assaulted virtually every game - so my Lord Commissar actually gets pretty good out out of his power fist.

Again though, I take your point. Especially with Priests around, it seems like you don't really need melee weapons for squads.

It's just a little sad because it makes my characters feel flavourless when I don't give them anything. I really wish we didn't overpay for so much gear.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

4) I have not been tabled in 7th and I think that the reason many infantry guard players do get tabled is they wimp out half way through building a list. They get 150 men and think "thats enough" and then start taking wyverns and tanks. This is a sure way to lose nearly every game. At 1850 points I never leave home with less than 200 me. You will lose on average 30-40 men a turn so make sure that you have enough men to counter this (and it only takes 1 lucky shot to kill a tank).

I'll bear that in mind.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
The picture I have added is one of my army vs another GK player. Again notice the lack of GK models on the board after guard turn 3! Sorry if I missed any of your points but again I hope this clears things up and encourages you to play pure infantry guard (:

Well, I've just acquired about 20 HWTs via ebay, so perhaps that answers your question.

You've been a lot of help, thanks. It's nice to know infantry guard can work, because I just really love that sort of style.

One thing though - what are your thoughts on HWSs? Is there any merit to them, or should all HWTs be in infantry squads? I ask because I know another infantry-IG player who used a lot of them alongside his infantry (though, that was mostly in 5th).

Bullgryns can have a Slab Shield *OR* a 3+ armour save - not both.

Is that so, going to have a talk with my local guard player then, hope he was just ignorant.

 Quickjager wrote:
Bullgryns can have a Slab Shield *OR* a 3+ armour save - not both.

Is that so, going to have a talk with my local guard player then, hope he was just ignorant.

No, my apologies, I just checked and I was mistaken. I thought it was a Brute Shield that granted a 3+ save (which replaces the Slabshield), but it is the Slabshield. The Brute Shield is a 5++.

Sorry about that.

Glad to know i have been helpful (:
just to clear up a few things:

1) I used to use screening squads but in 7th edition I have found it is just too easy for my opponents to take out the 10 man screening unit with his "spare" firepower.

2) Yarrick is good. Using him for the reasons you have said is valid. However, I just prefer taking 2 CCS so that I have maximum senior officer orders for the cheapest price. Spending almost 300 points on Yarrick and 50 conscripts is almost a quarter of your points at 1850, which is a lot to just stop your opponent getting warlord off you. What I do is take 2 CCS and give the NON-WARLORD command squad the MoO. This means they attract a lot of attention whilst my warlord CCS sits out of site plinking away with a mortar and issuing orders, which is 90pts to keep my warlord alive and I get more orders and a large blast! Whats not to like!

3) If you are finding that you are getting assaulted a lot then by all means take power weapons and fists (: at the end of the day your local meta is the most important factor when building a list. A Priest in a blob with 4 sgts with power axes and a commissar with a power axe might be perfect for you!

I agree with you about the bland characters, but if its a friendly game then spending a 100 pts or so to give your officers a bit of wargear is fine (: I have a Colonel Shaeffer model that I play with plasma pistol and Power sword if its a friendly game.

4) I used to love HWS. Always ran 3 mortar squads and 3 anti tank squads. But they die just too easily and run away to easily. Now I my anti tank in in my blob squads and conga line a few guys backwards each turn. If i need to get them to catch up I just use Forwards for the Emperor. As brutal as it sounds your lasgun guys a just extra wounds for the Big guns in the squad. Think of it this way, if a space marine player took a squad of devastators and had the option to give each model in that squad an extra wound up to an additional 50 wounds I'm pretty sure they would use that rule a lot! Just think of any damage you riflemen do as an awesome bonus and let the Heavy weapons do the heavy lifting. I still love mortars but they are much better in PCS. It allows my crappy 40 pt squad to fire every turn and it only needs to kill 1 guy and its got it points back and like with CCS I can keep the Platoon commanders out of line of site and keep my orders rolling all game!

Feel free to ask me any questions about infantry guard (: I am more than happy to help.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

1) I used to use screening squads but in 7th edition I have found it is just too easy for my opponents to take out the 10 man screening unit with his "spare" firepower.

Fair enough.

I know I've frequently had opponent's blow a hole in my screening squad, thus letting them assault the squad behind (via a multi-charge, if necessary).

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

2) Yarrick is good. Using him for the reasons you have said is valid. However, I just prefer taking 2 CCS so that I have maximum senior officer orders for the cheapest price. Spending almost 300 points on Yarrick and 50 conscripts is almost a quarter of your points at 1850, which is a lot to just stop your opponent getting warlord off you.

Well, I wasn't actually planning to buy conscripts for him. I was just going to put him in one of my infantry blobs, in place of a regular Commissar.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
What I do is take 2 CCS and give the NON-WARLORD command squad the MoO. This means they attract a lot of attention whilst my warlord CCS sits out of site plinking away with a mortar and issuing orders, which is 90pts to keep my warlord alive and I get more orders and a large blast! Whats not to like!

Hah, that's pretty clever. I was actually going to ask why you didn't give both your CCSs a MoO.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

3) If you are finding that you are getting assaulted a lot then by all means take power weapons and fists (: at the end of the day your local meta is the most important factor when building a list. A Priest in a blob with 4 sgts with power axes and a commissar with a power axe might be perfect for you!

Well, when I build my infantry list, I'll see how I do with just priests and Yarrick's fist. If I find that things keep ending up in combat, then I'll start adding some melee punch to squads.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

4) I used to love HWS. Always ran 3 mortar squads and 3 anti tank squads. But they die just too easily and run away to easily. Now I put them in my blob squads and conga line a few guys backwards each turn. If i need to get them to catch up I just use Forwards for the Emperor. As brutal as it sounds your lasgun guys a just extra wounds for the Big guns in the squad. Think of it this way, if a space marine player took a squad of devastators and had the option to give each model in that squad an extra wound up to an additional 50 wounds I'm pretty sure they would use that rule a lot! Just think of any damage you riflemen do as an awesome bonus and let the Heavy weapons do the heavy lifting.

Fair enough.

I have just one final question - what would you suggest dropping from your list above to get it to 1500pts?

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

Feel free to ask me any questions about infantry guard (: I am more than happy to help.

Thanks, you've been a great help already. I've ordered some more infantry, so hopefully I'll be able to make an infantry army soon. If I have any question after I start playing, would you mind me PMing you?

1) exactly screening squads are just too fragile. Better to have them extra wounds for your lascannons

2) Fair enough. Makes sense to me to put him in an existing blob, just be careful as your opponent will direct a lot of firepower to kill him so dont kit his blob out too much. Still I think he can work.

3) Thanks (: i used to run 2 MoO but I found it better to have one and then mind game my opponent.

4) Sounds good to me. the best advice I can give you is that you need to play many many games to find out what works for you and your platoons loadouts.

5) I played a 1500pts game with this list on sunday and I dropped a dakka blob (AC and GL) which saved me 265 pts, their PCS which saved me 40pts, a priest and the MoO which saved me 45pts. I was playing kill points against Orks and won 14-6 (:

And feel free to PM me anytime and welcome to Foot guard!

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
1) exactly screening squads are just too fragile. Better to have them extra wounds for your lascannons

The other thing I was thinking is that this lets that squad benefit from a Priest or the like. So, the big squad can last longer as a tarpit, and hopefully do more damage.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

2) Fair enough. Makes sense to me to put him in an existing blob, just be careful as your opponent will direct a lot of firepower to kill him so dont kit his blob out too much. Still I think he can work.

Well, perhaps I can use a similar trick to your MoO - and put him in one of my less valuable blob squads, to draw some attention from my lascannons (or whichever weapons I consider more useful).

One thing I'll have to be careful of is that he can't use orders if his unit ends up in combat (so I'd better not be to gung-ho with him ).

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

4) Sounds good to me. the best advice I can give you is that you need to play many many games to find out what works for you and your platoons loadouts.

Well, I enjoy messing around with unit loadouts (in fact, I struggle to leave an army list alone ), so that shouldn't be a problem at least.

FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

And feel free to PM me anytime and welcome to Foot guard!

Thanks.

1) Exactly! It makes your war hymns work better and your tarpit more effective. Many normal guard players use 30 men blobs but as an infantry player you need 40 because more than likely you are gonna lose 10 men before you get to tarpit and you need to keep your combat effectiveness.

2) I am liking your Yarrick idea. I think getting the balance between keeping him alive and spending too many points on the babysitting squad will take a few games to work out. I am thinking you want to use him as basically a more durable command squad so that you can use his orders and Ld bubble for as long a possible. Try it out and let me know how it goes (:

3) I am the same, constantly tweaking a list after making it!

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
1) Exactly! It makes your war hymns work better and your tarpit more effective. Many normal guard players use 30 men blobs but as an infantry player you need 40 because more than likely you are gonna lose 10 men before you get to tarpit and you need to keep your combat effectiveness.

I think I still find myself being surprised by how long blob squads - even 30-man ones - can last in combat. Maybe it's because my Grenadier Veteran squads just fold completely, despite their superior saves.

In any case, the main issue I have is dealing damage back - generally it's only my Lord Commissar with a PF who does anything. But, I've yet to try a priest in a squad, so I'll be interested to see how much difference that makes.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

2) I am liking your Yarrick idea. I think getting the balance between keeping him alive and spending too many points on the babysitting squad will take a few games to work out.

Well, one advantage of Yarrick is that there's a 2/3 chance he won't stay dead - so my opponent might kill him, only for him to spring back to life and hop into another blob squad! Obviously it's preferable that he doesn't die at all, but it's a nice backup to have if he does.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
I am thinking you want to use him as basically a more durable command squad so that you can use his orders and Ld bubble for as long a possible. Try it out and let me know how it goes (:

Sure. I'll let you know how it works, and if I manage to find any interesting tactics with him.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

3) I am the same, constantly tweaking a list after making it!

Since I print all my army lists, I've actually started making some brief annotations on them after each game. Basically, my aim was to just note any stand-out units (or wargear), along with any units that performed badly. So, if a unit is consistently bad, I can replace it; and if a unit is consistently good then I'll try to add more of them.

As I recall, the most useful are currently:
- Lord Commissar with PF, Death Mask and Emperor's Benediction. I'm surprised at just how much this guy has accomplished. As well as keeping my blob squad around (usually without needing to execute anyone), he also has a good record in combat. He's killed 3 terminators in a single swing, finished off a dreadknight, and survived a round of combat against a CSM biker lord and his biker squad (this was after his own squad had been reduced to just him and a single guardsman).
- Blob squad. I'm sure I don't need to sell you their virtues. But, they're useful for both their heavy weapons (mainly because, unlike vehicles, they can be augmented with orders), and their ability to tarpit enemies. I really do look forwards to having another 3 or so of these.
- CCS. For Orders and sometimes for the Aquilla (I like to run a lot of plasma at the moment).

The most useless:
- Whatever weapons I choose to give the CCS. I don't know why I do it, but I always end up giving them meltaguns or something, which they never ever use. Because, naturally, I just park them behind a wall and try to avoid drawing attention to them. I think I might have finally got the message with this one.
- Leman Russ Vanquisher. Can't hit the broad side of a barn-door. Here's a list of things it's utterly failed to kill (or even damage) - a Land Raider, a Drop Pod, a Dreadnought, a Rhino, a different Rhino, and a T4 character in the open. I honestly can't think of a single thing it's killed.
- Lascannon Sentinels. I could replace them with Cream Slices, and probably not notice any reduction in firepower.

Anyway, thanks again for all your help.

1) Its because at the end of the day 10 veterans are still only a tough to kill as 10 Guardsmen. Even with 4+ save there are so many AP4 and better weapons out there now that that it just doesnt make a difference. Better to save the points and get more men.

Once you go priests you never go back. Try pairing one with a Lord Commissar so that the squad is fearless and he gets to try his battle him check on Ld 10. In the first round of combat all your men will be rerolling hits and wounds! combine that with out 30 men (you will have lost about 10 on the way in to combat) and you have about 70 rerollable attacks.

2) Reminds me of the endind scene in V for Vendetta: Why! *BLAM* Wont! *BLAM* You! *Blam* Die!

3) Thats exactly what you need to do as a Infantry Guard Player. Your men are so bad you need to squeeze every point and make sure everyone is doing there job, even if there job is just to die and soak up damage!

4) I could never take all that wargear on my LC, thats an extra 20 conscripts worth of points But if it works for you then keep doing it (:

5) Personally I dont run a lot of Plasma. It makes my crappy guardsmen cost 20 pts and only hits half the time. Also I have the worst luck with plasma and seem to always kill my own men. Plasma is good on veterans though if you are running mech, but no so good in foot guard.

6)The problem with giving the CCS good weapons is that then you want to use them, but often they get to use them once then just die, because like veterans they die just as easily as 5 normal guardsmen! that means giving away warlord and fracturing your chain of command which is really bad in foot guard. or you give them to guns and like you ave found never use them because you want to keep them alive, in both cases its a waste of points. In infantry guard, CCS are best to give orders and lob blasts around safe behind a cover, leading bravely from the back

7) Vanquisher is good if you add in Pask with a lascannon and a really cheap bodyguard tank (like the eradicator). He can reroll 1s because of his warlord trait and 2s because of his special rule and he hits on 3s so you are almost always gonna hit something. however for the same price you could take a full lascannon blob and mortar PCS and still have pts to spare.

8) Sentinels are rubbish. Cool but rubbish. Just like HWS they are too fragile and only hit half the time, but they cant be buffed by orders so are worse put those lascannons in a blob and have them survive all game with those 32 extra wounds

Glad I could help again.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
1) Its because at the end of the day 10 veterans are still only a tough to kill as 10 Guardsmen. Even with 4+ save there are so many AP4 and better weapons out there now that that it just doesnt make a difference. Better to save the points and get more men.

I expect you're right. I think the other aspect is that my veterans usually have plasma or meltas - so they have to be dangerously close to their target in order to fire at full effect. Though, even firing close to the maximum range of plasmaguns, I've still had them charged in the following turn.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
Once you go priests you never go back. Try pairing one with a Lord Commissar so that the squad is fearless and he gets to try his battle him check on Ld 10. In the first round of combat all your men will be rerolling hits and wounds! combine that with out 30 men (you will have lost about 10 on the way in to combat) and you have about 70 rerollable attacks.

I thought in 7th models had to pass Ld tests on their own Ld?

Though, in any case, I do still want to put a priest in my LC's unit. As well as helping his PF, hopefully it will give the rest of the squad a bit more bite - so that they might be able to win some combats, rather than just delaying the enemy.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

2) Reminds me of the endind scene in V for Vendetta: Why! *BLAM* Wont! *BLAM* You! *Blam* Die!

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

4) I could never take all that wargear on my LC, thats an extra 20 conscripts worth of points But if it works for you then keep doing it (:

Well, much as I've enjoyed his successes, he's still far too many points for what he does. I suspect a Priest could produce similar results for a mere 1/5 of his cost. But, since his wargear is there for flavour reasons, I just grit my teeth and bear it.

Really, I'd be a little happier with this build if our wargear was more reasonably priced - e.g. 15 for the Death Mask, 15 for a PF (which would bring his cost down to a more reasonable 100pts). Still to many points for a competative army, but at least I wouldn't feel like I was being ripped off at every turn.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

5) Personally I dont run a lot of Plasma. It makes my crappy guardsmen cost 20 pts and only hits half the time. Also I have the worst luck with plasma and seem to always kill my own men. Plasma is good on veterans though if you are running mech, but no so good in foot guard.

Yeah, I only use it on veterans (or things like the Executioner). I liked it at first, but more recently I'm starting to doubt the usefulness of plasmaguns. Even with preferred enemy, they just don't seem to accomplish much - especially with so many units having excellent cover/invulnerable saves these days. And, the relatively short range of plasmaguns means they usually have to put themselves in a lot of danger to use them. I bring it up because massed plasma was actually one of the things that initially drew me to IG - as it seemed both fun and effective. Now though, I'm pretty disillusioned with it. As you said above, Veterans are expensive, and Plasma seems to have few worthwhile targets. I really do think more infantry squads is the way to go. Likewise, the Executioner is nice, but it seems a bit too vulnerable to anti-tank weapons. ~190pts is a lot to lose to a few multi-melta shots. And, while 190pts of infantry could probably tie up a MC for most of the game, the Executioner is unlikely to last a single turn if that happens.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

6)The problem with giving the CCS good weapons is that then you want to use them, but often they get to use them once then just die, because like veterans they die just as easily as 5 normal guardsmen! that means giving away warlord and fracturing your chain of command which is really bad in foot guard. or you give them to guns and like you ave found never use them because you want to keep them alive, in both cases its a waste of points. In infantry guard, CCS are best to give orders and lob blasts around safe behind a cover, leading bravely from the back

Exactly.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

7) Vanquisher is good if you add in Pask with a lascannon and a really cheap bodyguard tank (like the eradicator). He can reroll 1s because of his warlord trait and 2s because of his special rule and he hits on 3s so you are almost always gonna hit something. however for the same price you could take a full lascannon blob and mortar PCS and still have pts to spare.

Unfortunately, I only own 1 Leman Russ tank at the moment - so no Tank Commanders/Pask or me. I *could* get more, but I don't really want to. I much prefer infantry-heavy armies to vehicle-heavy ones. And, having a tank as my Warlord just doesn't appeal to me.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

8) Sentinels are rubbish. Cool but rubbish. Just like HWS they are too fragile and only hit half the time, but they cant be buffed by orders so are worse put those lascannons in a blob and have them survive all game with those 32 extra wounds

Is there any problem we can't solve by adding more men?

With regard to (Armoured) Sentinels, I've had some success with the Plasma Cannon variety. The long range, combined with their mobility, gives me some good options for hurting enemy units. Though, the main problem I've found is that they tend to roll 'gets hot' exactly when I don't want them to. Taking hull points doesn't bother me, but not firing at all does. And, spending more points on something to give them rerolls feels like throwing good points after bad.

Have you had any luck with Plasma Cannons? Either on Sentinels or elsewhere.

1) Thats the problem I have always had with veterans. They have to get close to the enemy to work and they only get 1 chance to do their job and then they die, and more often then not my luck gives out just when I need them to work.

2) There has been much discussion about this on dakkadakka. Personally how I read it is that the priest must pass a leadership test and when he is part of a unit he can use the units highest Ld. I have checked with all the people at my FLGS and they have agreed with this interpretation. I don't have my books in front of me right now but when I do I will post page numbers and stuff to back myself up.

Regards to priests and blob squads in combat, if you get the right load out or even just enough warm bodies you will win every combat! My personal favourite is a 50 man conscripts blob with priest and commissar. I often run this at 1000 points and it only costs 200 points. 100 rerollable hit and wounds attacks is nothing to be sniffed at

3) Our last codex everything was 5 pts cheaper I think. 10 pts for plasma pistol and 10pts for power weapons. I think power fists were still 25 pts. I think they made our stuff more expensive because all the SM players were jealous!

4) I used to run about 14 plasma guns when I first went foot guard. Now I dont use any. As you have said they have a short range and that is a big draw back, and with everyone in 7th getting a cover save there is no difference between wounding with an AC or a plasma gun. But the AC has double the range, double the shots and is 5pts cheaper. I have run Executioners and I found that they would get drop pod melted every game, but my blobs are immune to that and at most would lose 10-15 guys.

5) I know what you mean. Having a tank commander in charge of a infantry force just doesnt feel right.

6) Honestly if there is a better solution to problems I havent found it yet! But I have found that when you reach about 270 men at 1850 pts you hit a plateau and you start finding you need a bit more equipment . My current list (the one i posted before) I feel like is the perfect balance between amount of men and amount of right equipment to get the job done.

At low points levels I have employed the "Moving Carpet" tactic. 750 points and 160ish fearless men with next to no equipment but a few melta bombs moving onto the objectives and holding them the whole game

7) In general I always seem to gets hots with my plasma cannons. Even in the old codex when the plasma tanks main gun didnt get hot I would glance my own tanks to death! Because of this my view is probably a bit off.

In regards to armoured sentinels, I have never really used them as they only have 2 hull points and even with armour 12 on the front that just felt way to fragile to me. However, having said that I know a guy who runs 9 of the bloody things and he seems to have great success with them! I think with anything in the guard codex if you take enough of them it starts to work better. Taking a bit of this and a bit of that always seems to result in not having enough of anything. Not that im advocating spamming

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

2) There has been much discussion about this on dakkadakka. Personally how I read it is that the priest must pass a leadership test and when he is part of a unit he can use the units highest Ld. I have checked with all the people at my FLGS and they have agreed with this interpretation. I don't have my books in front of me right now but when I do I will post page numbers and stuff to back myself up.

Interesting. I don't have the rulebook handy, but I'll check the wording when I get the chance and see what my group thinks.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

Regards to priests and blob squads in combat, if you get the right load out or even just enough warm bodies you will win every combat! My personal favourite is a 50 man conscripts blob with priest and commissar. I often run this at 1000 points and it only costs 200 points. 100 rerollable hit and wounds attacks is nothing to be sniffed at

What's that saying?

'Quantity has a quality all of its own.'

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

3) Our last codex everything was 5 pts cheaper I think. 10 pts for plasma pistol and 10pts for power weapons. I think power fists were still 25 pts. I think they made our stuff more expensive because all the SM players were jealous!

I don't know about plasma pistols, but it used to be 10pts for Power Weapons, and 15 for Power Fists. So, Power Fists actually went up by 10pts.

I suspect you're right about why they changed it, but it doesn't make the decision any less silly. There's no reason why we should pay as much as space marines, because:
- We have markedly worse combat stats.
- S8 is much better than S6 - it can instant death T4 models, wound most MCs on 2s (instead of 4s), and penetrate AV12-13 (we can only glance AV12, and can't touch AV13 - which matters for dreadnaughts).
- Our men are cheaper. Why do we need to increase the cost of our sergeants by ~400% to get S6, when SMs only pay ~166% to get S8?

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

4) I used to run about 14 plasma guns when I first went foot guard. Now I dont use any. As you have said they have a short range and that is a big draw back, and with everyone in 7th getting a cover save there is no difference between wounding with an AC or a plasma gun. But the AC has double the range, double the shots and is 5pts cheaper. I have run Executioners and I found that they would get drop pod melted every game, but my blobs are immune to that and at most would lose 10-15 guys.

5) I know what you mean. Having a tank commander in charge of a infantry force just doesnt feel right.

Not just me then.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

6) Honestly if there is a better solution to problems I havent found it yet! But I have found that when you reach about 270 men at 1850 pts you hit a plateau and you start finding you need a bit more equipment . My current list (the one i posted before) I feel like is the perfect balance between amount of men and amount of right equipment to get the job done.

At low points levels I have employed the "Moving Carpet" tactic. 750 points and 150ish men with next to no equipment but a few melta bombs moving onto the objectives and holding them the whole game

If my group does a low-point game, I think I'll give that a try.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

7) In general I always seem to gets hots with my plasma cannons. Even in the old codex when the plasma tanks main gun didnt get hot I would glance my own tanks to death! Because of this my view is probably a bit off.

Fair enough.

One of my friends stopped using Obliterators in 5th, after a game in which they rolled nothing but 1s. I'm not sure they even managed a single shot.

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:

In regards to armoured sentinels, I have never really used them as they only have 2 hull points and even with armour 12 on the front that just felt way to fragile to me. However, having said that I know a guy who runs 9 of the bloody things and he seems to have great success with them! I think with anything in the guard codex if you take enough of them it starts to work better. Taking a bit of this and a bit of that always seems to result in not having enough of anything. Not that im advocating spamming

Well, to be fair, our codex is one of the few that seems to have been designed with spamming in mind. Though, the only thing I really enjoy spamming is infantry.

With regard to Sentinels, I feel hull-points really limits their versatility. In 5th, if they got into melee, they could tie up any infantry without power fists for most of the game - since glances were pretty ineffective. Now though, it just takes a couple of 6s with Krak Grenades and they're gone.