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In my new army's fluff, they are an AM regiment that was isolated from the Imperium for a hell of a long time, and due to disrepair of equipment they had to resort to using Autoguns as they were much easier to produce and maintain with what they had with them when they got cut off. The only issue is how I come up with a conventional ballistics analogue for Hotshot lasguns, taking into account their reduced range and increased armour penetration.

One thought I had was that they manage to salvage some technology from a derelict Tau vessel, including rail/pulse rifles, and adapt it into their own armoury. These guns would not actually be the same guns that the Tau use, but rather variations on the same technology adapted for use in their regimental combat style. This would also explain why the entire army is made up of Tempestus Scions (in rules. In fluff, they are just elite soldiers, as the standard regiment structure has been considerably adjusted due to all kinds of reasons.), as they have advanced armour as standard, about as good as Carapace.

Thoughts? How can I make this work?

I always just say that my autogun toting Scions are using armor-piercing ammo.

Decreased range and increased armor pen doesn't happen in reality. Things that are made for short range break apart quicker, things that penetrate armor tend to slow down much less quickly.

The first thing that popped into mind for me was the M4 (the equivalent of the lasgun for the sake of comparison) and the alternate Beowulf upper reciever for the M4 which fires 12.7 mm rounds but has a shorter effective range but significantly surpasses the M4 when it comes to penetration (this would be the hot shot equivalent).

Not sure how you'd be able to model the difference if you use this idea, but it could work out fluffwise.

I think the salvaging and reverse engineering of Tau tech is a good idea.

A 5.7 caliber springs to mind. Add in steel core, or better yet, sci-fi it up with uranium tipped rounds and call 'decreased range' the bullets deforming from the speed of the projectile, becoming inconsistent in the air and essentially wizzing off in every direction. Range doesn't necessarily mean the bullet stops flying, just that it won't hit anything or it won't damage something when it does.

A lot of 40k is based off the idea that the two shots per turn fired from a rapid fire gun are in fact a dozen and these two are the important bits determining the damage done by the actual shots fired in the full volley.

you can just use any gun that looks cool and say it has special ammo.

Scions are not part of the regiments, but seconded to them, you dont need to worry about it

As people have pointed out, higher power and reduced range don't normally happen in a gun, because more power behind the shot means the bullet is automatically going farther (and bigger, more powerful ammunition needs more force behind it, increasing its range, it's a vicious circle). However, if the accuracy is bad, then you can have a powerful gun that has an effectively shorter range. A gun with a short or sawed off barrel would have this issue. But shorter barrels are used to make guns easier to carry or hide. They do nothing for a gun's power. The gun would have to already be stronger than another model to do more damage.

Not sure if that was useful at all, but there you go.

They are simply using modified autoguns that are of much higher quality

they also have twice the barrel size and use a caseless 18mm round that has an admantium tip and explosive belly

and 5 techpriest pray to each firearm 18 hours a day and use special oil which is mixed with the tears of virgin psykers under torture before their 13th birthday, to give them that extra punch of course

It depends on what it is you actually want. Is the heavy use of autoguns intentional, or a symptom of their story? Given how you were willing to add that they salvaged Tau technology, I'd suggest that they could have found an ancient Mechanicus outpost or something to do with non-Imperium humans.

The idea of them creating special ammunition or weapons themselves (along with salvaging advanced alien technology and adapting it to their own purposes) suggests a production capacity and technical competency that would certainly give them the ability to maintain lasguns (especially considering that the most notable feature of which is how easy they are to maintain and produce), so I'm not sure how that could fit.

 mitch_rifle wrote:
mixed with the tears of virgin psykers under torture before their 13th birthday

I'd certainly hope so.

 fallinq wrote:
As people have pointed out, higher power and reduced range don't normally happen in a gun, because more power behind the shot means the bullet is automatically going farther (and bigger, more powerful ammunition needs more force behind it, increasing its range, it's a vicious circle). However, if the accuracy is bad, then you can have a powerful gun that has an effectively shorter range. A gun with a short or sawed off barrel would have this issue. But shorter barrels are used to make guns easier to carry or hide. They do nothing for a gun's power. The gun would have to already be stronger than another model to do more damage.

Not sure if that was useful at all, but there you go.

Agreed. 'Range' in 40k isn't the maximum range of the weapon, simply the maximum effective range - i.e. the maximum range at which you have a realistic chance of hitting with it.
Equipping your 'stormtrooper' analogues with a big-calibre 'elephant gun'* instead of a regular autogun is quite feasible.

Salvaging Tau technology doesn't really work because standard Tau Hardware isn't based off solid-projectile weaponry; if they had salvaged enough for their enginseers to both it together with human hardware and/or build more, you've then got to explain why the rest of the army aren't packing pulse rifles.

No reason it couldn't be generic 'alien hardware', just not Tau. There are plenty of minor xenos races no-one has ever heard of.

*Carnifex Gun?

 smudgethekat wrote:


One thought I had was that they manage to salvage some technology from a derelict Tau vessel, including rail/pulse rifles, and adapt it into their own armoury. These guns would not actually be the same guns that the Tau use, but rather variations on the same technology adapted for use in their regimental combat style.

If the Imperium couldn't figure out how to make their own EMP grenades or how to mass-produce night-vision gear, reverse-engineering rail or pulse weapons seems out of the league of even the AM, let alone some Scions.

Past that, it's a great way to get shot for Heresy.

Emp we have already put the night vision gear thing to rest (as in every Imperial vehicle, all space marines, and most units have night vision gear - it is stated in the fluff many times from many sources).

How about just say they are low grade explosive rounds?

 PhillyT wrote:
How about just say they are low grade explosive rounds?

But those wouldn't have armor penetration.

I'd go with the special ammo angle though. Something with a penetrator core, and so much gunpowder behind it that recoil causes the shorter range. You just can't keep the gun on the target for more than a short burst.

Just for reference, Heresy isn't an issue. They have become somewhat distant from the Emperor over the centuries, and most have stopped worshipping him. Furthermore, these guys haven't exactly made their recent rediscovery of the Imperium well known, they tend to sit at the outskirts of the galaxy and stay to themselves. They are aware of what would happen to their planet if they were noticed, so they keep their heads down.

Plus, I thought the reason more alien tech wasn't adapted for usage by Imperial forces was more Xenophobia than a lack of ability to do so, but I may be completely wrong.

EDIT: Oh also, these soldiers aren't actually Scions. They are better equipped than standard guardsmen due to their reverse engineering, and they have had some of the usual pressures relieved from them, so their soldiers have a higher life expectancy, resulting in more experienced troops. As a side effect, there aren't too many of them.

 smudgethekat wrote:
Plus, I thought the reason more alien tech wasn't adapted for usage by Imperial forces was more Xenophobia than a lack of ability to do so, but I may be completely wrong.

Xenophobia is certainly part of it, but there's also economics and support functions to consider. The Imperial manufacturing chain is focused on the things they have - lasguns, stubbers, bolters, battle cannons and thread driven tanks. If you wanted to produce a Tau-derived weapon you'd need a new manufacturing line. But that's not all. You'd also need new resources (if it uses some element not needed for IoM tech), techpriests would have to be trained to maintain the equipment and you'd need experts ready to teach the troops how to use it.

And ofc, tying into our real world... The guys making the stuff you have aren't going to be happy if they can't make and sell what they know. And most new small-arms calibers are useless anyhow - the old ones works well enough, a new one is just a solution looking for a problem. Why buy new guns, new ammo, new support when the guns you have kill stuff enough?

Honestly, I still haven't figured out why regular lasguns are off the table, I'm thinking maybe some massive stockpile was destroyed, making them extra rare, and their STC data went along with it? I dunno, I'll come to it later, but I'd rather not just have regular lasguns.

For the Hotshot dilemma, how about a compromise, where I use special ammo that incorporates alien technology, for example it uses the same plasma containment methods the Tau use for their pulse/plasma rifles and uses it to create bullets with small plasma charges inside?

Converted hot-shot lasgun packs to massively increase the temperature of unstable and highly resistant rounds made of metal native to their world, they shred through armour but the gun could overheat and melt in their hands.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 smudgethekat wrote:


One thought I had was that they manage to salvage some technology from a derelict Tau vessel, including rail/pulse rifles, and adapt it into their own armoury. These guns would not actually be the same guns that the Tau use, but rather variations on the same technology adapted for use in their regimental combat style.

If the Imperium couldn't figure out how to make their own EMP grenades or how to mass-produce night-vision gear, reverse-engineering rail or pulse weapons seems out of the league of even the AM, let alone some Scions.

Past that, it's a great way to get shot for Heresy.

Scions have night vision gear, armor that can be used for atmospherical entry.

The IOM as a whole has better guns than the railgun.

Another thing you might consider is giving them hot-shot lasguns. The rest of the planet may be stuck with inferior technology out of necessity, but the best of the best get issued the planet's few, ancient, lovingly-maintained laser weapons.

Which is, of course, why regular grunts don't get to have them.

Otherwise, yeah, just special ammo.

Not strictly designed as armor piercing, but a much more punchy round resulting in shorter range would fairly accurately describe any of the automatic shotguns loaded with Slugs.

You lose quite alot of range compared to a rifle, but you put alot of lead in the target. Here's some additional information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_shotgun

The only issue is that in heroic 28mm scale, it could be difficult to tell the weapon apart from other assault rifles. Still, it fits the description.

Along the line if the Beowolf ammo post.

*Autoguns are good old 5.56ish

*Hotshots are just good old 3.08 - aka not assault rifles but the rarer term "battle rifles, with steel core or teflon ammo. Excellent penetration. Just forget about explaining the range situation-maybe recoil is such that aimed shots is no bueno in a CQB context.

 Frazzled wrote:
Along the line if the Beowolf ammo post.

*Autoguns are good old 5.56ish

*Hotshots are just good old 3.08 - aka not assault rifles but the rarer term "battle rifles, with steel core or teflon ammo. Excellent penetration. Just forget about explaining the range situation-maybe recoil is such that aimed shots is no bueno in a CQB context.

.308 strikes me as a shuirken catapault. More oomph. Though as you say, nothing in 40k really takes into account the added range.

Hot-Shots to me have the feel of an MP7.
It punches most Body Armor, but it is tiny round without a lot of Knockdown Power.

 Eilif wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Along the line if the Beowolf ammo post.

*Autoguns are good old 5.56ish

*Hotshots are just good old 3.08 - aka not assault rifles but the rarer term "battle rifles, with steel core or teflon ammo. Excellent penetration. Just forget about explaining the range situation-maybe recoil is such that aimed shots is no bueno in a CQB context.

.308 strikes me as a shuirken catapault. More oomph. Though as you say, nothing in 40k really takes into account the added range.

Well fluffwise one could argue the range limitation because .308 at range requires aiming and they don'thave time for that. Yea thats all I have...

Alternatively I like the shotgun with a sabot round.

Or even a shotgun firing a very tiny copperhead HEAT round. That'll teach those uppity marines!

 Frazzled wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Along the line if the Beowolf ammo post.

*Autoguns are good old 5.56ish

*Hotshots are just good old 3.08 - aka not assault rifles but the rarer term "battle rifles, with steel core or teflon ammo. Excellent penetration. Just forget about explaining the range situation-maybe recoil is such that aimed shots is no bueno in a CQB context.

.308 strikes me as a shuirken catapault. More oomph. Though as you say, nothing in 40k really takes into account the added range.

Well fluffwise one could argue the range limitation because .308 at range requires aiming and they don'thave time for that. Yea thats all I have...

Alternatively I like the shotgun with a sabot round.

Or even a shotgun firing a very tiny copperhead HEAT round. That'll teach those uppity marines!

The Beowulf's max effective range is generally around 200 yards (it starts dropping REALLY fast after 200 yards. I have heard of people being able to hit a target 300 yards out but they point out that it easily drops 3 to almost 4 feet - so they have to compensate, A LOT - and takes a noticeable while to get there). Reasons are that it's a fairly "slow" round (less powder than your average .50 cal round) but the size of it gives it plenty of punch and penetration within 200 yards.

 Eilif wrote:
Not strictly designed as armor piercing, but a much more punchy round resulting in shorter range would fairly accurately describe any of the automatic shotguns loaded with Slugs.

You lose quite alot of range compared to a rifle, but you put alot of lead in the target. Here's some additional information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_shotgun

The only issue is that in heroic 28mm scale, it could be difficult to tell the weapon apart from other assault rifles. Still, it fits the description.

Give em' drum feeds from Ork guns (or any other source you can use to model drum feeds). That'd be a cool, thematic way to tie the units together visually and separate their guns from regular autoguns.

Give then short-barrel autocannons and say that they reduce the powder load to make the recoil manageable.

smudgethekat wrote:Honestly, I still haven't figured out why regular lasguns are off the table, I'm thinking maybe some massive stockpile was destroyed, making them extra rare, and their STC data went along with it? I dunno, I'll come to it later, but I'd rather not just have regular lasguns.

When I decided to give my army a focus on solid shot weapons rather than lasguns, it was because their homeworld is in close proximity to a xeno world that produces indigens who, like the Loxatl, are basically immune to lasfire because of their refractive fur. They use solid shot because they train with solid shot because solid shot is what works against their ancestral prey - the xeno world hasn't been cleansed because of its use as a training facility.

Once they get assigned to Guard regiments (only women who have had one child and served four years in the PDF are allowed to join up), many of them end up trading with other regiments, which is why there's a prevalence of Accatran pattern lasguns and auxiliary grenade launchers amongst the NCOs and veterans.

Hotshot lasguns fulfill a capability that modern day armies don't have to deal with, heavily armored infantry, same with plasma and its ilk. Humans are squishy, 5.56 deals with us nicely, the bigger the weapon the more likely its for dealing with both infantry and vehicles.