Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is there a specific rule that states you cannot roll the saves of a unit with the same save 1-by-1? My opponent does this with his 2+ deathstar and because he rolls 1 by 1 he never fails a save, even though the unit all has 2+s and nothing that would force 1-by-1ing.

In addition, are you allowed to look out sir with multiple models? For example if a Independent Character Terminator libby gets hit by an Exocrine Plasma Cannon, can I look out sir to multiple paladins to prevent a paladin dying from LoS?

The rulebook doesn't require you to roll saves together. It suggests it to speed things up but he is allowed to roll them individually.

It's worth noting that technically this does not change the odds of any given outcome unless he's using the same die over and over and that die has been altered somehow.

Verviedi wrote:
In addition, are you allowed to look out sir with multiple models? For example if a Independent Character Terminator libby gets hit by an Exocrine Plasma Cannon, can I look out sir to multiple paladins to prevent a paladin dying from LoS?

Look out Sir is to the closest model within 6", so you can't choose who it goes to (not directly, at least. You could position your models beforehand and such).
Only Characters can Look out Sir, and you can only LoS! a wound once.
You can find it all under LoS! in the rulebook.

I know how much bull gak that is to role one dice at a time. It is much easier to manipulate 1 dice than a handful.

Verviedi wrote:
Is there a specific rule that states you cannot roll the saves of a unit with the same save 1-by-1? My opponent does this with his 2+ deathstar and because he rolls 1 by 1 he never fails a save, even though the unit all has 2+s and nothing that would force 1-by-1ing.

In addition, are you allowed to look out sir with multiple models? For example if a Independent Character Terminator libby gets hit by an Exocrine Plasma Cannon, can I look out sir to multiple paladins to prevent a paladin dying from LoS?

1. All saves are rolled singly. You can roll "Fast Dice" if they have all the same save to save time however.

2. Once you LoS a wound onto another model from the IC, that model receives all remaining wounds until that shooting attack ends or the model is dead. So you cannot allocate 1 wound to several Paladin to keep them from dying.

Fragile wrote:

Verviedi wrote:
Is there a specific rule that states you cannot roll the saves of a unit with the same save 1-by-1? My opponent does this with his 2+ deathstar and because he rolls 1 by 1 he never fails a save, even though the unit all has 2+s and nothing that would force 1-by-1ing.

In addition, are you allowed to look out sir with multiple models? For example if a Independent Character Terminator libby gets hit by an Exocrine Plasma Cannon, can I look out sir to multiple paladins to prevent a paladin dying from LoS?

1. All saves are rolled singly. You can roll "Fast Dice" if they have all the same save to save time however.

2. Once you LoS a wound onto another model from the IC, that model receives all remaining wounds until that shooting attack ends or the model is dead. So you cannot allocate 1 wound to several Paladin to keep them from dying.

In regard to 2. You roll a LoS roll for each wound. A punisher canon is 20 LoS rolls, not 1. However, each successfull LoS goes to the same closet model, even if 2 are in base to base, until that model is dead or there are no more wounds. You certainly can't split 5 wounds over 5 guys,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(unless the first 4 guys die...)

Rolling one at a time actually prevents some of the LOS shenanigans that cropped up in 6th.

If you believe that he's somehow manipulating the die roll by rolling one at a time, get him a paper cup to roll from.

Where does it say that the model stepping in must take all remaining wounds until it is killed? (in reference to Fragile's #2)

It seems that LoS is done on a wound by wound basis, however the same model would take the wounds since it was the closest.

I ask because what if you had two wounds on a squad of Cents, LoS the first to a different Cent, and took the last wound to yourself as to not have any models removed.

curt1893 wrote:
Where does it say that the model stepping in must take all remaining wounds until it is killed? (in reference to Fragile's #2)

It seems that LoS is done on a wound by wound basis, however the same model would take the wounds since it was the closest.

In standard shooting, the LOS! roll goes to the closest model. This model will likely remain closest until killed.

I ask because what if you had two wounds on a squad of Cents, LoS the first to a different Cent, and took the last wound to yourself as to not have any models removed.

In this case you have elected not to LOS! (or failed the roll), so there is no re-allocation to the closest. You're not forced to make a LOS! roll. What you can't do however, is spread those wounds from the character onto 2 different Centurions.

In your mind why does rolling one at a time make a difference?

 Byte wrote:
In your mind why does rolling one at a time make a difference?

Because rolling a single die is far easier to manipulate than rolling 2 or more.
It's not just in anyone's mind - it's a simple fact.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
In your mind why does rolling one at a time make a difference?

Because rolling a single die is far easier to manipulate than rolling 2 or more.
It's not just in anyone's mind - it's a simple fact.

no its not, unless that dice is modded, or the person isnt actually "rolling" that dice, its the same as rolling a bunch.

unless you are playing xena, people cannot actually control one dice anymore then they can control 2+ dice,

RAW your opponent can roll one at a time.

barring them placing the lone die on the side they want, rolling one dice 10 times is just as random as rolling 10 dice once,

curt1893 wrote:
Where does it say that the model stepping in must take all remaining wounds until it is killed? (in reference to Fragile's #2)

It seems that LoS is done on a wound by wound basis, however the same model would take the wounds since it was the closest.

I ask because what if you had two wounds on a squad of Cents, LoS the first to a different Cent, and took the last wound to yourself as to not have any models removed.

Because any wound passed off to another model via LoS is passed to the closest model. You can't have 2 models that are the closest. So the first wound passes to the closest model. The second wound has to go to the same model, he's still the closest.

Now if 2 models are base to base with the character taking the LoS roll, you still have to determine which is closest, whether it be by choice or random. And once one is determined closest, it keeps taking wounds until it's dead or there are no more wounds left.

 easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
In your mind why does rolling one at a time make a difference?

Because rolling a single die is far easier to manipulate than rolling 2 or more.
It's not just in anyone's mind - it's a simple fact.

no its not, unless that dice is modded, or the person isnt actually "rolling" that dice, its the same as rolling a bunch.

unless you are playing xena, people cannot actually control one dice anymore then they can control 2+ dice,

RAW your opponent can roll one at a time.

barring them placing the lone die on the side they want, rolling one dice 10 times is just as random as rolling 10 dice once,

False. It is possible to influence the outcome of a dice roll, especially if you're rolling only one die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice_control

There's numerous other articles on the web to back up the theory of dice control.

There is a reason it has to bounce off the back wall in Craps....
If it is a concern, simply have them roll the dice from a cup as others have suggested.

Honestly, if someone was 1by1ing me I'd have to refuse to play against them, as it takes ALL of the fun, pace and energy out of the game.

There may no be an actual rule, but there is definitely unwritten rules not to be obstructive to flow the game.

Yes, there is a rule for it. It's called the "You don't have to play a game you don't want to" rule.

Seriously. If someone is always single rolling saves then that would be a red flag for me and I'd first ask them not to do it. If they persisted then I'd just pick up my models and move on.


As far as your second question: no, you can't do that.

If he is rolling saves one at a time you can accuse him of slow-playing. In tournaments I would definitely call it slow-playing and if he persisted I would call a ref over. Technically not illegal in terms of rules, but technically farting in an elevator is legal.

In short, tell him that it's slow-playing

I will sometimes roll one by one when I have a half dozen saves on termies if it could be deciding roll just because it fun to build that bit of suspense.

So rolling one die at a time is cheating or could be?

 Byte wrote:
So rolling one die at a time is cheating or could be?

Only if you play on a really smooth table with no bounce, and the correct amount of roll distance to be mathematically worked out be for hand. So possible but extreme unlikely.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I will sometimes roll one by one when I have a half dozen saves on termies if it could be deciding roll just because it fun to build that bit of suspense.

That's my opponent's reasoning. He ignores it when I say a unit of Termagants overwatching a 3-inch charge and taking saves for the hits is not "suspenseful"

curt1893 wrote:
Where does it say that the model stepping in must take all remaining wounds until it is killed? (in reference to Fragile's #2)

It seems that LoS is done on a wound by wound basis, however the same model would take the wounds since it was the closest.

I ask because what if you had two wounds on a squad of Cents, LoS the first to a different Cent, and took the last wound to yourself as to not have any models removed.

It seems there's a bit of a miscommunication here. What they are trying to say is that all wounds that you've re-allocated using LoS must be allocated to the closest model until it dies, before moving onto the next one. However, how many wounds you choose to attempt to LoS is up to you.

So in your scenario, Yes. If two wounds were allocated to your character you could attempt to only LoS one of those wounds therefore keeping both models alive (assuming the LoS roll passed).

 Ghaz wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
In your mind why does rolling one at a time make a difference?

Because rolling a single die is far easier to manipulate than rolling 2 or more.
It's not just in anyone's mind - it's a simple fact.

no its not, unless that dice is modded, or the person isnt actually "rolling" that dice, its the same as rolling a bunch.

unless you are playing xena, people cannot actually control one dice anymore then they can control 2+ dice,

RAW your opponent can roll one at a time.

barring them placing the lone die on the side they want, rolling one dice 10 times is just as random as rolling 10 dice once,

False. It is possible to influence the outcome of a dice roll, especially if you're rolling only one die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice_control

There's numerous other articles on the web to back up the theory of dice control.

I already said it is possible to manipulate dice, but it is something that requires an insane amount of precision, control, controlled surfaces, and so on and is something noticeable as "not rolling" when the guy lines up each dice, measures how high, the angle, sets the same upward facing ect ect...

that is not the same as simply rolling one die at a time... sure cheating with one loaded dice or magic set up that controls the roll without your opponent knowing is easier then having two loaded dies in that sense.

but no one can actually do it, at least in an unnoticeable way, find one to prove it.

if anyone can actually manipulate dice constantly, they are not using that talent on 40k, they are millionaires from breaking casinos.




RAW rolling one dice at a time is 100% ok, and mathematically identical.

as i said, barring Xena like powers people will notice the prerequisites for controlling your dice... controlling dice =/= rolling them, its more noticeable, and works way worse then loaded dice


rolling one dice at a time is a lot of fun for some of the more nail biting moments, the only real reason against it is if someone uses it to slow play

 easysauce wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
In your mind why does rolling one at a time make a difference?

Because rolling a single die is far easier to manipulate than rolling 2 or more.
It's not just in anyone's mind - it's a simple fact.

no its not, unless that dice is modded, or the person isnt actually "rolling" that dice, its the same as rolling a bunch.

unless you are playing xena, people cannot actually control one dice anymore then they can control 2+ dice,

RAW your opponent can roll one at a time.

barring them placing the lone die on the side they want, rolling one dice 10 times is just as random as rolling 10 dice once,

False. It is possible to influence the outcome of a dice roll, especially if you're rolling only one die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice_control

There's numerous other articles on the web to back up the theory of dice control.

I already said it is possible to manipulate dice, but it is something that requires an insane amount of precision, control, controlled surfaces, and so on and is something noticeable as "not rolling" when the guy lines up each dice, measures how high, the angle, sets the same upward facing ect ect...

that is not the same as simply rolling one die at a time... sure cheating with one loaded dice or magic set up that controls the roll without your opponent knowing is easier then having two loaded dies in that sense.

but no one can actually do it, at least in an unnoticeable way, find one to prove it.

I'm glad you've never been around someone that could do that.
I used to be able to roll a 6 7 times out of 10 on a d6. 70% likelihood of rolling a 6 is much better odds than 17% chance.
I never did/do it while playing because it's cheating... But I taught myself how because it was fun.

if anyone can actually manipulate dice constantly, they are not using that talent on 40k, they are millionaires from breaking casinos.

Except casinos deliberately make it impossible by requiring you to bounce dice off a barrier some distance away. Almost like they've thought of that...

I'd be against rolling more than 3-4 saves individually. The "suspense" generated is less than the frustration at waiting at that point.

unless attacks are targeted towards a character and the player is determining to make LOS rolls and contemplating wounds on the character model vs LOS yada yada... it's a waste of time, i'd recommend that the other player just make several rolls at once... If the player in question was known as "that guy" i'd just avoid playing against them due to lack of enjoyment. Whether some one is cheating or skilled at rolling a die is irrelevant, when some one takes soooooo long to do anything I become uninterested in playing with them in the future

Its even easier to manipulate dice in the situation that the OP describes where he's only trying to avoid a roll of a one and not roll a specific number.

This is all very disheartening.

What kind of people do you lot play with, I wonder, that the go-to thought is it's more believable that they have some devious casino-beating dice trick up their sleeve?

People hate one-at-a-time rolls for the same reason they hate everything in this game -- they didn't have it in [insert edition they swear was better] and perceive it as poorly conceived.

When I do Look Out Sir rolls, I roll 2 dice -- one odd-colored to represent the LOS roll, and one to represent the save. If the LOS die is high enough, the save roll applies to the closest guy to the character; if not, the roll applies to the save of the character themselves. I've done as many as 40 LOS rolls with this in under about two minutes time, give or take.

Don't act like it completely ruins your experience to wait less than 5 minutes, and don't pretend the only reasons to do so are to gain some kind of advantage. You can gain an advantage in this game through much easier things to do than clever dice tricks (like buying loaded dice, mixing them with identical regular dice, and then rolling abnormally well for the rest of your 40k career with no questionable action on your part at all. Why the hell would someone go all rain man instead when they can just do that?).

I don't know. Makes me sad. The way some guys talk, it's like every game is the Super Bowl and you bet your house on it. "Surely he must be cheating!" Seriously?

If you want to make sure the rolls are fair make sure they hit the table at an angle and with some torque. Yeah, Vegas has special rules...Vegas also has mechanically leveled double felt tables, too. Something tells me they would be less concerned about the dice trickery if their guys had to roll on a table with a bunch of uneven, jagged textured glue and paint on it.

If it really bothers you, use my method. At least then, there are two dice being rolled. It'll probably make you feel better and is much more sportingly brought up ("Hey man, do it like this, it's still one at a time but faster").

 Fenris Frost wrote:
This is all very disheartening.

What kind of people do you lot play with, I wonder, that the go-to thought is it's more believable that they have some devious casino-beating dice trick up their sleeve?

People hate one-at-a-time rolls for the same reason they hate everything in this game -- they didn't have it in [insert edition they swear was better] and perceive it as poorly conceived.

When I do Look Out Sir rolls, I roll 2 dice -- one odd-colored to represent the LOS roll, and one to represent the save. If the LOS die is high enough, the save roll applies to the closest guy to the character; if not, the roll applies to the save of the character themselves. I've done as many as 40 LOS rolls with this in under about two minutes time, give or take.

Don't act like it completely ruins your experience to wait less than 5 minutes, and don't pretend the only reasons to do so are to gain some kind of advantage. You can gain an advantage in this game through much easier things to do than clever dice tricks (like buying loaded dice, mixing them with identical regular dice, and then rolling abnormally well for the rest of your 40k career with no questionable action on your part at all. Why the hell would someone go all rain man instead when they can just do that?).

I don't know. Makes me sad. The way some guys talk, it's like every game is the Super Bowl and you bet your house on it. "Surely he must be cheating!" Seriously?

If you want to make sure the rolls are fair make sure they hit the table at an angle and with some torque. Yeah, Vegas has special rules...Vegas also has mechanically leveled double felt tables, too. Something tells me they would be less concerned about the dice trickery if their guys had to roll on a table with a bunch of uneven, jagged textured glue and paint on it.

If it really bothers you, use my method. At least then, there are two dice being rolled. It'll probably make you feel better and is much more sportingly brought up ("Hey man, do it like this, it's still one at a time but faster").

Quoted for truth