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Hi, I've got a question about how you guys interpret this rule. The rule says that you are able to re role the scatter dice of blast and barrage weapons in the formation but only says the scatter dice not counts as twin linked. After seeing another player read this to me leads me to think that it is infact only the scatter dice and not the 2d6 that is also roled.

So what do you guys think? How do you guys read it?

Blasts and re-rolls says you re-roll both.

We play that you re-roll only the scatter dice, and not the 2d6, as it would give the twin-linked special rule if that is what they intended.

This also means you get to re-roll the additional scatter dice for the Biovore's multiple barrages.

I admit that this isn't clear, and can be interpreted as a simple twin-linked, but I don't think so.

I am away from the books but doesn't the section informing how to go about Re-rolling require us to re-roll all the dice involved in a test?

No, it just says to reroll the scatter dice.

Just the scatter dice. If they intended you to be able to reroll both I believe they would've used different language(like "blasts count as Twin Linked)

"Dice" is plural. "Die" is singular. If the rule says "dice", then re-roll all of the dice.

 Farseer Pef wrote:
"Dice" is plural. "Die" is singular. If the rule says "dice", then re-roll all of the dice.

Yup. If the rule says scatter dice it refers to all three dice. If it says scatter die, it refers to only the one.

Farseer Pef,
Incorrect, dice is also singular... it is a fun language, no?

Even if it wasn't for the fact Dice is duel-used terminology at the best of times, I remember reviewing a section of the book previously for a similar subject matter and learning something about the way the Authors use the word 'Dice.' It isn't the most strongest of links, I don't trust my memory for real good reasons even if it was, but I am getting an inkling that some Rule within the General Principals provided a description for 'dice' which allowed for both single or multiple of the things. Just another thing to add to the list to review when I get home I guess....

Weird. Page 11 of the small rule book defines the single die as a "scatter dice". Page 12 tells you to roll a scatter dice and 2D6 when scattering something like a blast.

I retract my vote. Being told to retool the scatter dice would refer only to the single die.

GW never use "die" as a singular of "dice", in any of their games or editions.

Where's the third option?

Roll the scatter dice, including the 2D6. Then roll the scatter dice for each extra biovore. If you're unhappy about the result, reroll everything (a.k.a. start over).

JinxDragon wrote:Farseer Pef,
Incorrect, dice is also singular... it is a fun language, no?

Wikipedia says it's "die." Dictionary.com says it's "die." Grammarist.com and Oxford Dictionary both say historically it's "die" but in modern use dice has been used as its own singular. I think we can chalk that down to bastardization of language.

Kriswall wrote:Weird. Page 11 of the small rule book defines the single die as a "scatter dice". Page 12 tells you to roll a scatter dice and 2D6 when scattering something like a blast.

I yield on GW's intent based solely on the above passage, since it gives precedent to how GW uses the word. Doesn't make them grammatically correct, though. Where are those nuns and their rulers?

Farser Pef,
Language has always been a fluid thing, open to change, so 'bastardization' is a poor choice of words if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just reviewed the Re-Roll Rule and I now remember the problem with it, while it does give us instructions to re-roll all dice involved in a roll it does so very poorly. In fact, so poorly that it doesn't even consider the possibility of there being more then 3 dice used in a single Roll of standard dice. Technically, if you are re-rolling 4d6, you could choose to keep some of them and only re-roll the die you need to increase success. This is because the 'must re-roll all dice involved in a roll' Rule is bundled in with instructions that state 2D6 or 3D6 roll and don't entertain the possibility of there being 3<Xd6 or Scatter dice+2D6.... >

JinxDragon wrote:
Farser Pef,
Language has always been a fluid thing, open to change, so 'bastardization' is a poor choice of words if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just reviewed the Re-Roll Rule and I now remember the problem with it, while it does give us instructions to re-roll all dice involved in a roll it does so very poorly. In fact, so poorly that it doesn't even consider the possibility of there being more then 3 dice used in a single Roll of standard dice. Technically, if you are re-rolling 4d6, you could choose to keep some of them and only re-roll the die you need to increase success. This is because the 'must re-roll all dice involved in a roll' Rule is bundled in with instructions that state 2D6 or 3D6 roll and don't entertain the possibility of there being 3<Xd6 or Scatter dice+2D6....

When given instruction do reroll all the dice and two possible examples, do you require that they list every possible combination of die rolls they could possibly have ?>

JinxDragon wrote:
Farser Pef,
Language has always been a fluid thing, open to change, so 'bastardization' is a poor choice of words if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just reviewed the Re-Roll Rule and I now remember the problem with it, while it does give us instructions to re-roll all dice involved in a roll it does so very poorly. In fact, so poorly that it doesn't even consider the possibility of there being more then 3 dice used in a single Roll of standard dice. Technically, if you are re-rolling 4d6, you could choose to keep some of them and only re-roll the die you need to increase success. This is because the 'must re-roll all dice involved in a roll' Rule is bundled in with instructions that state 2D6 or 3D6 roll and don't entertain the possibility of there being 3<Xd6 or Scatter dice+2D6....

Language is definitely a fluid thing. Technical writing... less so. This ruleset should have more in common with rigorously accurate technical writing than it does with the popular literature. The "correct" thing to do, and what most technical editors would likely recommend, would be to use the singular die for one and the plural dice for more than one. Using dice as the singular confuses the issue because now you have no real way of differentiating between one versus many.

Reroll the dice. Which dice? I don't know. I don't even know how many dice you're talking about.>

They are consistent with this though. Throughout all editions, and all their game systems, they never use the term "die".

They're generally quite clear on what needs re-rolling.
Re-roll To Hit is straight forward.
Re-roll Scatter is explained as both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
Re-roll the scatter dice would just be the scatter dice.

Kriswall,
I won't argue, Rule as Written should follow a more technical writing style but someone needs to tell Game Workshop that.
We should request a coherent glossary, one which covers the meaning of particular words which are used often within the Rules themselves, while we are at it....

Fragile,
If these where examples then there would not be a problem... as the Rule literally states if we re-roll a 2d6 or a 3d6 then we do X, those are not examples.

 grendel083 wrote:
They are consistent with this though. Throughout all editions, and all their game systems, they never use the term "die".

They're generally quite clear on what needs re-rolling.
Re-roll To Hit is straight forward.
Re-roll Scatter is explained as both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
Re-roll the scatter dice would just be the scatter dice.

Oh, I agree. Now that I go back and look, it's very obvious that they're being consistent... they're just not being accurate (since most dictionaries don't consider the word dice to be singular), so it can create potential confusions when a reader knows dice to be the plural of die.

Not realizing that they use dice as a singular, I would assume that re-roll the scatter dice referred to the scatter die AND the 2D6. If I read re-roll the scatter die, the only possible interpretation is that I'm re-rolling one single die.

Ultimately, this is just another example of GW writing potentially confusing or ambiguously worded rules.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Kriswall,
I won't argue, Rule as Written should follow a more technical writing style but someone needs to tell Game Workshop that.
We should request a coherent glossary, one which covers the meaning of particular words which are used often within the Rules themselves, while we are at it....

Fragile,
If these where examples then there would not be a problem... as the Rule literally states if we re-roll a 2d6 or a 3d6 then we do X, those are not examples.

Lol... yeah, hard to Forge That Narrative when you're bound by restrictive and well written rules!

JinxDragon wrote:
Kriswall,
I won't argue, Rule as Written should follow a more technical writing style but someone needs to tell Game Workshop that.
We should request a coherent glossary, one which covers the meaning of particular words which are used often within the Rules themselves, while we are at it....

Fragile,
If these where examples then there would not be a problem... as the Rule literally states if we re-roll a 2d6 or a 3d6 then we do X, those are not examples.

So if were to reroll 4d6 can you just pick 1 or 2 out of the dice ?

The intent is clear, it is the wording used which is the problem....
I will post the exact wording when I get home to show you why it is an issue.

Fragile wrote:
So if were to reroll 4d6 can you just pick 1 or 2 out of the dice ?

Re-Rolls wrote:If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice, not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Any modifiers that applied to the first roll also apply to the re-roll.

 grendel083 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
So if were to reroll 4d6 can you just pick 1 or 2 out of the dice ?

Re-Rolls wrote:If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice, not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Any modifiers that applied to the first roll also apply to the re-roll.

You appear to have missed the issue Grendel

Thanks Grendel for posting the Rule.

If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll... is a trigger condition.
While I believe it was not meant to limit the Restriction which comes next, that we must re-roll all the dice and not just some of them, it doesn't change what was actually written down in the Rule itself. As the first part of the sentence informs us when the second part of the sentence occurs, we are not bound by the second part of the sentence unless we are in a situation covered by the first part of the sentence. That would mean any dice roll which are more then 3d6, or Rolls which involve a non-D6 such as a scatter dice, are not bound by the requirement to you must re-roll all of the dice, not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise.

It is silly, clearly not intended, but it is written.

Fragile wrote:
You appear to have missed the issue Grendel

Always a possibility
But I posted the rule so JinxDragon could highlight his issue without having to wait and look it up.

He is good to me like that.
I just hope I have highlighted the problem well enough....