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Hi all,

So we often here about the disparity between vehicles and monstrous creatures. A lot of the frustration is around MCs not always being 'creatures' and some disparity about two particular versions being in that category.

Mechs could be like wargear upgrades to a character that give them specific stats and standard rules and then can be further upgraded.

So my question is would adding an additional a mech class be beneficial or more hassle than it was worth?

I think that the mechanized MCs should just get a construct rule that opens up more vulnerability to things like Haywire, Ordinance, Armourbane, Guass and similar while making them resistant to Poison/Fleshbane.

I think most Necrons, Tau Drones, Eldar Wraiths and similar should get this rule too.

That's the thing though. Mechs are walkers. Walkers are, by majority, a living being or mind inside of a metal suit of armor, either permanently or otherwise, controlling them. It's why the Riptide annoys me so much. It's not a creature. It's a walker. Yet it's classified as a MC, yet Forgefiends and Maulerfiends, while more monsterous in appearance and what naught, are still classified as walkers.

I don't think we need more model classes, because more rules just invites more convolution in the process. I think GW just needs to sit down and actually figure out what classifies as what class in their lore. What, to them, define a walker as opposed to a MC.

I don't think we need more model classes, because more rules just invites more convolution in the process. I think GW just needs to sit down and actually figure out what classifies as what class in their lore. What, to them, define a walker as opposed to a MC.

This. Nids, daemons, c'tan, and similar units are monstrous creatures. Riptide, dreadkights, and wraithknights are different. They are normal sized infantry artificially increased in size and power by being put in a big chunk of armor. I feel like the distinction is clear, GW dropped the ball.

Like Melevolence said, walker is the appropriate category. Should ideally be a fairly simply test. Is it a natural creature? If yes, MC. Is it a mechanical creation? If yes, Walker.

How it should be;

All big 'nid gribblies = MC
Greater Daemons = MC
Pain Engine = MC
C'Tan = MC
Avatar = MC


Necron Spyder = Walker
Triach Stakler = walker
Defiler = Walker
Stompa = SH walker
Knight = SH walker
Orkanaughts = walker
Deff Dread = walker
Killa Kans = Walker
Riptide = walker
Dreadknight = walker (seriously, go look at the Sisters of battle penitant engine that is a walker, then come back and tell me why the dreadknight is an MC)
Penitant engine = walker
Dreadnoughts of all flavours = walker
Wraithknight = walker
Wraithlord = walker
War Walker = walker
Sentinal = walker
Forge/Mauler Fiend = walker (I can see the argument being made either way for them though.)

The only one I could see really going either way would be the Daemon Soul Grinder, but I'd personally classify it as a walker.

Wow, that's a lot of units. Think I covered all of them.

I agree with Drasius
The Soul Grinder is a tough one as well, monstrous walker? Haha

Drasius wrote:
Dreadknight = walker (seriously, go look at the Sisters of battle penitant engine that is a walker, then come back and tell me why the dreadknight is an MC)

If i remember correctly, they said at the time that they wanted a 'big' model that could go toe-to-toe with a greater daemon and they knew that dreadnoughts with walker rules couldn't do that. Take with a grain of salt, but I'd say walker rules are working as intended.

They wanted to sell their new, expensive models so they made them MC instead of Walkers. MC are much better in game since you can't blow them up on a lucky dice roll and they get a save. This all goes back to making rules primarily to sell models, with fluff being secondary and balance an afterthought.

Which leads to less sales and more broken rules to prop up the 'must buy' factor. Repeat ad nauseum.

Walkers should just use some of the rules of the Mechanicus MC's from Horus Heresy.

i prefer to think of it in terms of "not literally" and more representative. yes, that riptide looks nothing like a monster, or a creature, but it moves like one, or in other words, its obviously not as slow as a walker.
whether it was to sell more models or not, i think it gives the game a sort of flavor, with clear ideals of whats fast and flexible and what isnt. even if it is a giant monster creature, it could still be a walker just because its bulk and reaction time makes it more of a walker.

and i think mcs arent necessarily better then walkers. while mcs need to take moral tests (at least im pretty sure they do), walkers do not (of course this varies since killa kanz have to take a form of moral test). i will never have to worry about my deffdreads or gmorkanauts running from a fight because some psyker casts some op spell that makes them take an instant leadership test. also mcs arent immune to the effects of instant death (like when my MA bigmek killed my brothers tricked out riptide with a single shot from his tellyport blasta).

Whats the difference between Power Armor and a Dread Knight? None that i can see except one is a much bigger suit or armor. Same applies for the Riptide with Wraithknight. they are just but suits of armor like TDA or PA and there for should be MC's rather than Walkers. Dreadnoughts, are walkers as they are all machine (other than the dead guy inside) same with Maulerfiends (all mech).

the difference is flexibility and speed. both the wraithknight and riptide are of such fine construction that they literally move like infantry units (really big ones). you cannot convince me that the walking sarcophagus (dreadnaught) is so flexible, agile, and bleeping fast that it can be compared to an mc, let alone any tau battle suit. its not about whether it is a power armor or an actual creature, its the actual characteristics of the thing.

I must agree that it really depends on what GW felt like at the time (armor or high toughness for protection).
We can still cheat a little and add better armor on the high toughness creature If needed.

I think mechanical vs. biological monstrous creatures are readily defined and do not need any further "refinement".

I think the only thing that irritates people is the inconsistency.

It actually began with the conversion of the Eldar Wraithlord from an AV to T and W scores in 3rd Edition. It made the Wraithlord significantly more durable than the other dreadnoughts.


Either all the walkers should have vehicle stats, or they should all have MC stats. Not a mix of the two.

geargutz wrote:
the difference is flexibility and speed. both the wraithknight and riptide are of such fine construction that they literally move like infantry units (really big ones). you cannot convince me that the walking sarcophagus (dreadnaught) is so flexible, agile, and bleeping fast that it can be compared to an mc, let alone any tau battle suit. its not about whether it is a power armor or an actual creature, its the actual characteristics of the thing.

Sentinels are fast, agile, and lightly armored... yet much bigger than any standard infantry unit. MC? No! Walker. Why?

 Psienesis wrote:

geargutz wrote:
the difference is flexibility and speed. both the wraithknight and riptide are of such fine construction that they literally move like infantry units (really big ones). you cannot convince me that the walking sarcophagus (dreadnaught) is so flexible, agile, and bleeping fast that it can be compared to an mc, let alone any tau battle suit. its not about whether it is a power armor or an actual creature, its the actual characteristics of the thing.

Sentinels are fast, agile, and lightly armored... yet much bigger than any standard infantry unit. MC? No! Walker. Why?

They have no arms
Who said anything about lightly armoured? Riptide and DK have a 2+
They have no arms
They walk like a chikenbot
They have no arms

 Zande4 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

geargutz wrote:
the difference is flexibility and speed. both the wraithknight and riptide are of such fine construction that they literally move like infantry units (really big ones). you cannot convince me that the walking sarcophagus (dreadnaught) is so flexible, agile, and bleeping fast that it can be compared to an mc, let alone any tau battle suit. its not about whether it is a power armor or an actual creature, its the actual characteristics of the thing.

Sentinels are fast, agile, and lightly armored... yet much bigger than any standard infantry unit. MC? No! Walker. Why?

They have no arms
Who said anything about lightly armoured? Riptide and DK have a 2+
They have no arms
They walk like a chikenbot
They have no arms

Because the position isn't "do they have arms?" (Dreadnoughts certainly do) It's "difference in flexibility and speed". Sentinels are both fast and agile, that is why they are used as Scout vehicles.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

geargutz wrote:
the difference is flexibility and speed. both the wraithknight and riptide are of such fine construction that they literally move like infantry units (really big ones). you cannot convince me that the walking sarcophagus (dreadnaught) is so flexible, agile, and bleeping fast that it can be compared to an mc, let alone any tau battle suit. its not about whether it is a power armor or an actual creature, its the actual characteristics of the thing.

Sentinels are fast, agile, and lightly armored... yet much bigger than any standard infantry unit. MC? No! Walker. Why?

They have no arms
Who said anything about lightly armoured? Riptide and DK have a 2+
They have no arms
They walk like a chikenbot
They have no arms

Because the position isn't "do they have arms?" (Dreadnoughts certainly do) It's "difference in flexibility and speed". Sentinels are both fast and agile, that is why they are used as Scout vehicles.

As much as I hate that the Riptide, DK and WK are MC's, I can at least admit there is a pretty big difference between their kind of agility and free flowing movement than to that of a clunking Sentinel

You think the DK doesn't clunk? It's Imperial. All Imperial tech clunks. Even the bits with no moving parts.

 Psienesis wrote:
You think the DK doesn't clunk? It's Imperial. All Imperial tech clunks. Even the bits with no moving parts.

I'd imagine it would move similar to a Jaegar from Pacific Rim or even a Transformer, whereas the sentinel would move like the Chicken Walkers from Star Wars, pretty big difference.

i admit the sentinel is indeed fast, but that is about it. the lines can be blurred here, like how walkers need no leadership tests, but killa kanz do, the sentinel can scout and move through cover, but its other characteristics need to be taken into account. the sentinel has those nice rules, but probably done for its specific construction as a scout vehicle that can take some nice weapons, but its reaction time keeps it down to the walker level.

i hope my argument is making sense here. i have to admit that changing some units from walkers to mc may have been a calculated move from gamesworkshop to sell more porducts, but it deosnt mean that every walker should be an mc now, or that every mc should be a walker. ill hold to the statement that i believe these rules help set the "feel" of the game. if all tau battlesuits were considered walkers then it would be hard for me to believe they can jet thrust all across the battlefield, or likewise if all ork dredds were now mc, then how can shoddy ork construction produce almost seamless movement and reaction. i think the mc and walker are meant to be different to help set the flavor of the game and its models (besides being another buisness decision).

I would have to say that some walkers could be monstrous creatures, but not all monstrous creatures need to be walkers.

Going by the lore and narrative, walkers are oversized, nonflying creatures with legs instead if track. Monstrous creatures are units that strike fear in the hearts of men (or aliens), and need not be a specific type of construct. A LoW or super heavy is just a *really* oh sh** monstrous creature.

So, what is the dividing line? I would have to say, if it's really nig, is scary to run into, and likely to kill the average unit that dares to assault it, you have an MC.

A Dreadnougt probably should not be an MC, because the Boyz are desensitized to seeing them. A DK? Much scarier! A WK? Run away!!! A LRMBT? Nahhhh dat just looks like doze trukks.

Note that I'm not suggesting that some reclassifications are not appropriate, and that the system may need tweaks to achieve better balance. I'm solely saying that the distinction makes sense, to me.