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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Can you have more than 1 flyer take the Fighter Ace special rule in a non-Fighter Ace mission?

Here are the relevent quotes:

Fighter Aces:
Fighter Aces are upgrades for Flyers in W40K. In any mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, immediately after rolling for Warlord Traits, each player can select one model with the Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature type, and upgrade that model to be a Fighter Ace. Roll on the appropriate table....

Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions:
If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....


Thanks!




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I would say yes. Its pretty expensive and i dont see how it could be abused.

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The fighter ace rule says to select one model.
The second quote says to folow the fighter ace rule exactly.

So you can only pick one model.



   
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NJ

Roll a 5-6 on the Tyranid table in a FMC spam list. But the point is can you legally take more than one in regular games of 40k?
   
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My thoughts,

Just from the text you quoted the first one is the rule stating "in any mission that has fighter aces special rule"

the second one says in missions that do not have the special rule you may..

so if special rule is present= 1 free upgrade, but no actual permission for more upgrades.

if special rule is not present= 0 free upgrades, but may points to give upgrades. The rule for picking one is only if the special rule is present, as called out in the rule itself. Therefore it does not limit you to 1 in missions without the special rule.

so if there is nothing optional about the rules, sounds like its legit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 16:33:14


 
   
Made in gb
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





I believe the distinction for the number of models that can take it is in the type of mission being used.

In any mission with the Fighter Ace rule a single Flyer or FMC gets to be Fighter Ace for free.

In any other mission, any number of Flyers or FMCs can be Fighter Aces, but you have to pay the points cost for each.

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Florence, KY

Fighter Aces:
Fighter Aces are upgrades for Flyers in W40K. In any mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, immediately after rolling for Warlord Traits, each player can select one model with the Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature type, and upgrade that model to be a Fighter Ace. Roll on the appropriate table....

Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions:
If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....

The 'any model' is referring to the type of model that can e upgraded, not the number of models.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





TN/AL/MS state line.

For what it's worth, there's a third paragraph detailing use in campaigns- any model with more than five kills is a fighter ace.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 16:41:48


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edit

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 16:47:09



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 Ghaz wrote:
Fighter Aces:
Fighter Aces are upgrades for Flyers in W40K. In any mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, immediately after rolling for Warlord Traits, each player can select one model with the Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature type, and upgrade that model to be a Fighter Ace. Roll on the appropriate table....

Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions:
If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....

The 'any model' is referring to the type of model that can e upgraded, not the number of models.


that's pretty RAI arguable only...especially given your selective highlighting.

Fighter Aces:
Fighter Aces are upgrades for Flyers in W40K. In any mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, immediately after rolling for Warlord Traits, each player can select one model with the Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature type, and upgrade that model to be a Fighter Ace. Roll on the appropriate table....

Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions:
If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....


the first pertains to missions with fighter ace special rules only.

the second to other missions, ie missions without fighter aces.

applying a restriction from a special rule that is not present to the second rule is not an actual rule unless it's also in the second paragraph. There is no limitation in the second paragraph regarding missions that do not have the fighter aces special rule to have a limit on 'any'

if they wanted it to be one they would say "one model may be upgraded.." much like in a unit of ork boyz "one model may be upgraded to be a nob.."

for a further example, the entry from the necron codex for the destroyer lord says a necron destroyer lord may take any of the following: Semi weave, MSS, Arrow, Orb. Does the any mean it may only take one?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 16:49:47


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

As a Tyranid player (and thus the army that might have the most to gain from the fighter ace table) I would like to think that you can take as many as you want, and the non-specific "any" could indicate that it is either singular or plural. However, I see many instances of "model" and no instances of "models" - in short, I only see ambiguous cases to support the plural case and all of the text supports the singular case.

Furthermore, let's look at the relevant quotes:

Fighter Aces:
Fighter Aces are upgrades for Flyers in W40K. In any mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, immediately after rolling for Warlord Traits, each player can select one model with the Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature type, and upgrade that model to be a Fighter Ace. Roll on the appropriate table....


So here in a mission with the Fighter Ace special rule, we see clearly that there are two rules going on here:

1) There can only be one fighter ace
2) It is free to upgrade and one must simply roll on the appropriate table to gain the benefit of being a fighter ace

Now, in cases where the Fighter Ace special rule is not present, (aka normal games of 40k) they present the rules to follow:

Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions:
If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....


So what do these rules tell us?

1) ALL of the rules from the paragraph about what happens in missions with the fighter ace special rule are followed EXCEPT

2) that it now costs 35 points to take the upgrade

Is the first paragraph invalidated where it tells you to only take one? Quite clearly I think this is not the case. It tells you to follow ALL of the rules from the fighter ace missions section except the points cost. The restriction that there can only be one is a separate (but still valid) rule, despite the ambiguity in the singularity/plurality in the second paragraph.


That's just my take on it though. I can see how other people think it works the other way, but I think it becomes clear once you look at the whole picture. (FWIW I have 4 Flying Hive Tyrants and all of Skyblight who would love to benefit from this ambiguity)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote:


the first pertains to missions with fighter ace special rules only.

the second to other missions, ie missions without fighter aces.

applying a restriction from a special rule that is not present to the second rule is not an actual rule unless it's also in the second paragraph. There is no limitation in the second paragraph regarding missions that do not have the fighter aces special rule to have a limit on 'any'

if they wanted it to be one they would say "one model may be upgraded.." much like in a unit of ork boyz "one model may be upgraded to be a nob.."


It is present in the second paragraph, however, where they say "all the rules from the first paragraph still apply here, except for the points cost" (paraphrase)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 16:50:21


 
   
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Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote:


the first pertains to missions with fighter ace special rules only.

the second to other missions, ie missions without fighter aces.

applying a restriction from a special rule that is not present to the second rule is not an actual rule unless it's also in the second paragraph. There is no limitation in the second paragraph regarding missions that do not have the fighter aces special rule to have a limit on 'any'

if they wanted it to be one they would say "one model may be upgraded.." much like in a unit of ork boyz "one model may be upgraded to be a nob.."


It is present in the second paragraph, however, where they say "all the rules from the first paragraph still apply here, except for the points cost" (paraphrase)


if that is the case, then it would be 1 model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 16:54:46


 
   
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Florence, KY

blaktoof wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
Fighter Aces:
Fighter Aces are upgrades for Flyers in W40K. In any mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, immediately after rolling for Warlord Traits, each player can select one model with the Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature type, and upgrade that model to be a Fighter Ace. Roll on the appropriate table....

Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions:
If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....

The 'any model' is referring to the type of model that can e upgraded, not the number of models.


that's pretty RAI arguable only...especially given your selective highlighting.

No, it's RAW. It's telling us what type of model can be upgraded. Also note that the second paragraph is singular in its use of the term 'any model' and not 'any models'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 16:57:09


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

 Sinful Hero wrote:
For what it's worth, there's a third paragraph detailing use in campaigns- any model with more than five kills is a fighter ace.

BTW, the quote that Sinful Hero is refering to is this:

Using Fighter Aces In Campaigns:
If you are fighting in a campaign, then you can use the following rules to determine which models in your army are Fighter Aces instead of using the rules above. Keep track of.... Each of your Flyer or FMC models that start a mission with a score of 5 or more enemy Flyers or FMC's destroyed is considered to be a Fighter Ace,....



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 17:01:09



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 Ghaz wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
Fighter Aces:
Fighter Aces are upgrades for Flyers in W40K. In any mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, immediately after rolling for Warlord Traits, each player can select one model with the Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature type, and upgrade that model to be a Fighter Ace. Roll on the appropriate table....

Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions:
If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....

The 'any model' is referring to the type of model that can e upgraded, not the number of models.


that's pretty RAI arguable only...especially given your selective highlighting.

No, it's RAW. It's telling us what type of model can be upgraded. Also note that the second paragraph is singular in its use of the term 'any model' and not 'any models'.

So I could upgrade The Swarmlord to a Foghter Ace?

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Florence, KY

Yes, even though it may not do anything for him (I'm not exactly sure what the rule does). If the players want to waste points, that's their prerogative.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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Seattle

You have to follow all the rules given in scenario #1, as scenario #2 directs us.

If the Swarmlord could be your Fighter Ace in scenario #1, then it could be in scenario #2.

However, because scenario #1 tells us that Fighter Ace applies to only 1 model, and scenario #2 tells us that we have to follow all the rules in scenario #1 except the points cost, then you still only get to pick 1 Flyer to be a Fighter Ace.

Scenario #3 tells us to ignore Scenarios #1 and #2 completely and do what it says instead for campaign games.

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Vanished Completely

Indeed,
Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule seems pretty straight forward.

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The page is pretty clear, you can only take one fighter ace.

If anyone tried to make any model( other than flyer/ fmc) have the fighter ace rule and tried to justify it, I'd be pretty irrititated.
   
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Is there a new edition of death from the skies? I've been looking at my "friend's" copy but I can't seem to find the line about monstrous creatures. Does it still cost 50 pts to be a fighter ace? Am I looking at an old edition?
   
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It's in Shield of Baal: Leviathan.

   
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Edited. Wrong reading.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 14:42:13


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