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So in the fluff csm seen to always be a huge factor of destroying and waging war against the imperium. But how long can they do this? Like yes back in the original Heresy, the legions had tons of bodies and resources to use against the loyalist marines so short term they could last. But what about long term? By now the legions should be getting low on resources, equipment and followers even without daemons and the warp to help buff their attacks. They are now having very little synergy besides the black crusade but even that hs to be on its last leg with the 13th black crusade. So how do csm gather and use resources? Most of the time the most valuable and sought after things are gene seeds to further their developement but still they seem to be really teetering on just crapping out from their supplies and gathering methods being completely exhausted. Any knowledge on how they can keep going?

Since when? Unless they're a renegade with nobody backing them up, otherwise the Chaos Legions are doing just fine in the logistics department- if not better in the long term then the Imperium given that they can hide in the Warp and thus make themselves (and their logistics base) untouchable.

Chaos space marines can most certainly recruit more. It's not just chapters falling on their own and the legions slowly depleting over time. They take in slaves and warriors, pick out the good ones and make them into marines, assuming they have the resources to do so. Some do, some don't.

Sorry, tired. I'll just post this:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051

See the below evidence for where new CSM come from:

Within the Eye the Traitor Legions fight constant wars amongst themselves for gene-seed, slaves, resources, or martial honour. New Chaos Space Marines are recruited from the most dangerous heretics that are drawn into the Eye by the lure of Chaos, or else selected from the masses of slave-warriors who fight eternal battles for the amusement of the Dark Gods. The implantation of recruits is a brutal affair, quite unlike the carefully measured program of development used by Imperial Space Marines. Whether the candidate lives or dies is left to the will of the Chaos Gods. Initiation rites are similarly debased and savage, ensuring that only the toughest initiates ever survive.

p. 19, 2nd edition Chaos Codex.

So the Chaos Space Marines have set up their own realms within the Eye, building societies with them as a ruling caste. What will change over time is the number of veterans of the Heresy will decrease as they get killed off or become daemon princes, so the culture of the Legions might change as their recruits are increasingly made up of individuals that never knew their Primarch or the Emperor when they were still walking around as flesh and blood.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Since when? Unless they're a renegade with nobody backing them up, otherwise the Chaos Legions are doing just fine in the logistics department- if not better in the long term then the Imperium given that they can hide in the Warp and thus make themselves (and their logistics base) untouchable.

Pretty much this. The traitor legions have been around for 10,000 years and still remain a constant threat. While they do have internecine wars between themselves, and sometimes lack the coherency of their loyalist counterparts , the CSM are doing a good job at keeping their numbers up. They have access to the traditional methods of recruiting without the limitations and setbacks. Most, if not all, the Legions have their new homeworlds in the Eye of Terror. They also have Fabius Bile. There was some background on him where he never helped out any one legion more than another. Also check out the Daemonculaba, it's a good example of resources that are only available to traitors.

Ave Dominus Nox wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Since when? Unless they're a renegade with nobody backing them up, otherwise the Chaos Legions are doing just fine in the logistics department- if not better in the long term then the Imperium given that they can hide in the Warp and thus make themselves (and their logistics base) untouchable.

Pretty much this. The traitor legions have been around for 10,000 years and still remain a constant threat. While they do have internecine wars between themselves, and lack the sometimes lack the coherency of their loyalist counterparts , the CSM are doing a good job at keeping their numbers up. They have access to the traditional methods of recruiting without the limitations and setbacks. Most, if not all, the Legions have their new homeworlds in the Eye of Terror.

Not to mention that some Legions use Daemon Engines, which self sustain themselves unlike Imperial vehicles. Hell Heldrakes just roost on top of frigates like vulture droids in Star Wars- you don't even give them orders.

jareddm wrote:
Chaos space marines can most certainly recruit more. It's not just chapters falling on their own and the legions slowly depleting over time. They take in slaves and warriors, pick out the good ones and make them into marines, assuming they have the resources to do so. Some do, some don't.

Sorry, tired. I'll just post this:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051

That was an amazing read.

There's always been two bits of subtext in the game's fluff that people miss on.

First, most of the Chaos Marines today aren't veterans of the Heresy. Those guys are mostly dead (with most of them dying during the Heresy and Scouring), and the majority of the current Chaos Marines have been created as replacements since then.


The other is that Chaos isn't actually much of a substantial military threat except for when they manage to band together in large crusades. And even then, they have only limited success. Most Chaos forces are scattered, and only slightly less contentious with eachother than they are the Imperium. The reason why Chaos has to hide in the EoT and the Maelstrom is because they'd be hunted down and destroyed otherwise. Chaos forces are just another in a long list of thorns in the Imperium's side, not some massive axe hanging over its head and waiting to fall.

The parable of Chaos is that it's a path of ruin and misery, doomed to repeated failure for hubris and greed. That's why they've spent 10,000 years going slowly insane. Look at the primarchs. Lorgar writes a book nobody will read. Perturabo fortifies a planet nobody will attack. Angron, who only wants to fight, spends most of his existence languishing in the Warp because all of his attacks result in his being banished back there.

Where does it say that most of the veterans died? Sure the traitors didn't fare too well near the end of the Horus Heresy or The Scouring, but they did rebuild their strength (IA13). I agree that many of the CSM are replacements but how long have these new guys been around? Since m33, m39? Obviously these newer recruits have stuck to the original motifs and modus operandi of their parent legions. CSM probably aren't the greatest threat to the Imperium outside of Black Crusades but the ones I've heard about seem successful. I do recall, possibly in the 6th edition rulebook, that Chaos is the greatest threat to the Imperium of man, and that CSM are the most favored servants of Chaos.

You just have to look at the context of the fluff. Games Workshop very rarely spells anything out, because they want you to play the game with the narrative you want to forge (sorry). It's the same reason the fluff skirts around coming out and saying "The Tau are actually pretty bad people who would be villains in any other universe"

But the unspoken evidence is all there. Fabius Bile talks about how the Emperor's Children lost nearly all of their high ranking officers in the years following the Heresy. The language of the Chaos Codex is fairly clear, where it talks about how "many of the" same traitors still exist. But it doesn't say most. Notice that most Chaos units don't automatically come with Veterans of the Long War. not even Chaos Lords.

10,000 years (adjusted for Warp dilation of course), 12 failed crusades (with no repatriation of POWs I'm guessing), constant infighting, and they choose their leaders by martial might rather than virtue (hence why scrubs like Kharn still lead things). Some of the Legions didn't even retreat to the EoT or Maelstrom and would have died out over time. There's a reason why a large number of the 40K Chaos antagonists are characters like Honsou and Huron.

And the Chaos codex doesn't call it the "greatest", it calls it the "most insidious".Which, of course, means "causing harm in a way that is gradual or not easily noticed". It's a nice way of saying "They don't really get much done, but it's really sneaky when they do".

I mean, you're not going to sell Chaos Space Marine armies by branding them as "A bunch of bitter jerks who lose most of the time."

The codex doesn't make you take votlw, but the Black Legion supplement does. Does that mean that the largest Astartes force in the galaxy is filled with Horus Heresy legionnaires? No, just how the 20 man cap on CSM squads doesn't mean the legions are huge forces/using the S.O.Ps from the Horus Heresy. The CSM codex does an ok job at reflecting fresh renegades, votlw, and warbands in-between.

The Emperor's Children might have lost most of their officers but they also had it the worst (IMO of course). 10,000 years ( which could be 1 minute to aeons later), 12+ Black Crusades (which could be shown as successful), and an environment which culls the weak make for a very potent force. I can definitely see the logic that most of the Horus Heresy veterans died.

In the rulebook where chaos is featured, in huge font, it says "The Greatest Threat". It then goes to explain that title.

I'm all about forging the narrative, narrative campaigns are probably one of the cooler things about this hobby. CSM are akin to the orks in that they have the potential to start defeating empires wholesale if they ever unite. They won't though because as you stated, constant infighting.

I always figured that Chaos is "The Greatest Threat", not because of their standing military forces, but the fact that practically any human, or Astartes, can fall.

It's almost like a zombie virus; exposure to Chaos will result in a large portion of a population converting, with another significant portion dying, killing themselves or just going stark raving mad. The few survivors who have the wherewithal to resist become very vulnerable indeed. They don't need to be conquered by an overwhelming army.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Notice that most Chaos units don't automatically come with Veterans of the Long War. not even Chaos Lords.

Just as an anecdote on game mechanics: All units in the Black Legion supplement must take VotLW. All of them.

Only the units that have access to begin with ofc. No VotLW cultists.

What does that tell us?

Given the warfare for worlds, resources, patron gods, warp creatures and such. Warfare vs impirium , warfare vs xenos.
Backstabbing, betrayal, black crusades.

Anyone who can survive that and last is one dangerous marine and hardened combat veteran.

Survive that since the heresy, there no threat to be taken lightly.
Thousands of years of warfare and still fighting. Yeah no lightweight space marine scout.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Notice that most Chaos units don't automatically come with Veterans of the Long War. not even Chaos Lords.

Just as an anecdote on game mechanics: All units in the Black Legion supplement must take VotLW. All of them.

Only the units that have access to begin with ofc. No VotLW cultists.

What does that tell us?

I think I'll let you do the mental gymnastics on that one. It will be good exercise.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Notice that most Chaos units don't automatically come with Veterans of the Long War. not even Chaos Lords.

Just as an anecdote on game mechanics: All units in the Black Legion supplement must take VotLW. All of them.

Only the units that have access to begin with ofc. No VotLW cultists.

What does that tell us?

That armies represented by the Black Legion supplement are Abaddon's personal huscarls?

There's another thing to think about. CSM steal geneseed from anyone and use more brutal methods for creating new marines. And there's exposure to Warp mutations (not to mention regular old radiation). How much of the geneseed in circulation among the CSM is still of original traitor stock? Or in use by CSM that identify with that particular legion?

Space Marines in general aren't particularly sustainable the way their fluff describes them. Nothing about them makes sense from a realism perspective. They should have all been dead very soon after the Horus Heresy and their total actual military value would be negligible if numbers for other Imperial fighting forces given by GW also hold true.

The CSM's at least have the excuse of operating from realms of unreality where the physical laws of the universe don't apply, so one can argue they're far more sustainable than their loyalist counterparts simply from that perspective

Chaos is the greatest threat because the imperium is failing in it's logistical ability to deal with the psychic awakening of the human race.

There are not enough black ships to capture/assess/transport/process psykers. Too many untrained/vulnerable psykers means daemonic incursions are happening more and more often.

It's not the superbuff chaos space marines that are the biggest threat to the imperium; it is the actual stuff of chaos itself spilling out into the real world and devastating civilisation.

A big part of the imperium is set up to cull dangerous psykers (feeding them to the emperor for the most dangerous, or to the astronomicon for the trainable. Only the very best are used in any other manner). The Emperor's plan is to force the evolution of humans to be resistant to the daemon as humanity progresses through it's psychic awakening. Failure to do so would cause a massive meltdown in reality.

As to the widespread VOTLW in CS:BL armies; firstly it is permitted to have a Black Legion army without using the supplement. Secondly the VoTLW is likely being used to represent the more unified leadership, and better focus on their hatred towards the imperium, of the Black Legion. Not necessarily that all BL marines are HH veterans.

nareik wrote:
Chaos is the greatest threat because the imperium is failing in it's logistical ability to deal with the psychic awakening of the human race.

There are not enough black ships to capture/assess/transport/process psykers. Too many untrained/vulnerable psykers means daemonic incursions are happening more and more often.

It's not the superbuff chaos space marines that are the biggest threat to the imperium; it is the actual stuff of chaos itself spilling out into the real world and devastating civilisation.

A big part of the imperium is set up to cull dangerous psykers (feeding them to the emperor for the most dangerous, or to the astronomicon for the trainable. Only the very best are used in any other manner). The Emperor's plan is to force the evolution of humans to be resistant to the daemon as humanity progresses through it's psychic awakening. Failure to do so would cause a massive meltdown in reality.

As to the widespread VOTLW in CS:BL armies; firstly it is permitted to have a Black Legion army without using the supplement. Secondly the VoTLW is likely being used to represent the more unified leadership, and better focus on their hatred towards the imperium, of the Black Legion. Not necessarily that all BL marines are HH veterans.

Don't forget that it is the Imperium itself which sows the seed of chaos. If you treat your people like animals then many will look for salvation elsewhere.
Whatever the carriongod planned in live, he failed and now it's the dystopia he helped to create that further strenghtens the Dark Gods.
Regarding space marines of all flavours (and tbh. most of the other factions), they work by the rule of cool.
Forget logic and practicality for in the grim dark future there is only war

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
10,000 years (adjusted for Warp dilation of course), 12 failed crusades (with no repatriation of POWs I'm guessing), constant infighting, and they choose their leaders by martial might rather than virtue (hence why scrubs like Kharn still lead things).

Their goals were strategic, not conquering Terra, and were actually successful at reaching their goal. Abaddon is a bit like a Kickstarter that gets just the amount of money it needs for funding, but that's it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Notice that most Chaos units don't automatically come with Veterans of the Long War. not even Chaos Lords.

Just as an anecdote on game mechanics: All units in the Black Legion supplement must take VotLW. All of them.

Only the units that have access to begin with ofc. No VotLW cultists.

What does that tell us?

Not a thing.

Even Huron has VotLW. It is a bit misleading tbh.

However, I'm struggling with exactly how the CSMs do the whole gene-seed thing. Nevermind the CSM-birth machine factory, but how most of the other legions recruit (not whole chapters pulling off an Italian maneuver and switching sides at half time). The EoT, or the Maelstrom for that matter, are pretty bad places for storing gene-seed and growing the organs without it becoming useless further down the road.

I get the whole "we drink and we pillage and we do what we please! We get all that we want for free!" (aka Somalian Pirates method) style of securing resources, but the IoM can still mobilise 1,000,000x the resources in a much more reliable and secure fashion than having to rely on the Emperor's Children to guard your medicine cabinet, or rely on the World Eaters to make sure the Chaos Cultist Lorry Drivers' Union doesn't go on strike and mess up your logistics. Nevermind that the Night Lords turning up once in a while to nick your favourite Chaos teddy bear and put its head on a stake every once in a while. The CSMs must have dwindled massively in numbers, but have a much less decentralised chain of command, so they're capable of fast, small operations, but rarely balls to the wall system conquering campaigns.

... which is ironic, because that is identical to how the Imperium's Space Marines function.... small, fast operations and not balls-to-the-wall campaigns of conquest.

If they were losing strength then they'd all be dead by now. I could see how they are losing the veterans of the horus heresy, as it's just a matter of time. They have the traditional methods combined with a lack of adherence to tradition guidelines , can do heretical things, and care not if the initiate survives. Now take all those positives and combine them with living in the warp, internecine wars, and battling the Imperium. Their numbers are probably plateauing instead of skyrocketing or plummeting.

 Psienesis wrote:
... which is ironic, because that is identical to how the Imperium's Space Marines function.... small, fast operations and not balls-to-the-wall campaigns of conquest.

Somebody should tell the Imperial Fists that. Maybe they'd stop dying.

I assumed that the secondary reasons chapters tithe such a huge amount of their Geneseed back to Mars is that it's a primary target for CSM and Mars is about the most secure place in the galaxy. CSM have other methods of replenishing, including just straight-up resurrection occasionally, but in general they rip off SM for their geneseed.

Plus as anyone who can do 1 digit multiplication can tell, if you don't have the High Lords scrutinizing you, you can build up space marine forces pretty fast with implant growing slaves. I imagine that there are plenty of backwaters where the CSM cache geneseed and have massive geneseed slave farms where a bunch of comotose bodies, maybe even captured marines, are strapped down and harvested for their glands, which are then implanted in other people etc etc etc until you've got thousands of bodies turning out two glands every, what is it, 7 years?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
10,000 years (adjusted for Warp dilation of course), 12 failed crusades (with no repatriation of POWs I'm guessing), constant infighting, and they choose their leaders by martial might rather than virtue (hence why scrubs like Kharn still lead things).

Their goals were strategic, not conquering Terra, and were actually successful at reaching their goal. Abaddon is a bit like a Kickstarter that gets just the amount of money it needs for funding, but that's it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Notice that most Chaos units don't automatically come with Veterans of the Long War. not even Chaos Lords.

Just as an anecdote on game mechanics: All units in the Black Legion supplement must take VotLW. All of them.

Only the units that have access to begin with ofc. No VotLW cultists.

What does that tell us?

Not a thing.

Even Huron has VotLW. It is a bit misleading tbh.

However, I'm struggling with exactly how the CSMs do the whole gene-seed thing. Nevermind the CSM-birth machine factory, but how most of the other legions recruit (not whole chapters pulling off an Italian maneuver and switching sides at half time). The EoT, or the Maelstrom for that matter, are pretty bad places for storing gene-seed and growing the organs without it becoming useless further down the road.

I get the whole "we drink and we pillage and we do what we please! We get all that we want for free!" (aka Somalian Pirates method) style of securing resources, but the IoM can still mobilise 1,000,000x the resources in a much more reliable and secure fashion than having to rely on the Emperor's Children to guard your medicine cabinet, or rely on the World Eaters to make sure the Chaos Cultist Lorry Drivers' Union doesn't go on strike and mess up your logistics. Nevermind that the Night Lords turning up once in a while to nick your favourite Chaos teddy bear and put its head on a stake every once in a while. The CSMs must have dwindled massively in numbers, but have a much less decentralised chain of command, so they're capable of fast, small operations, but rarely balls to the wall system conquering campaigns.

Don't forget the CSM's took half the Mechanicus and Imperial Army with them, and the Eye of Terror itself is quite huge. They have lots of resources. Additionally, they're in league with the Warp, literal unreality itself which can provide much of what reality may not be able to, plus lots of stuff it just can't. They're also a whole lot less picky about working with Xenos, other human factions, and the like.

Meanwhile the Imperium of Man is grossly mismanaged and is fighting almost everywhere all the time against everyone. They're big, they've got lots of resources, but they're being bled from a thousand cuts.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
10,000 years (adjusted for Warp dilation of course), 12 failed crusades (with no repatriation of POWs I'm guessing), constant infighting, and they choose their leaders by martial might rather than virtue (hence why scrubs like Kharn still lead things).

Their goals were strategic, not conquering Terra, and were actually successful at reaching their goal. Abaddon is a bit like a Kickstarter that gets just the amount of money it needs for funding, but that's it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Notice that most Chaos units don't automatically come with Veterans of the Long War. not even Chaos Lords.

Just as an anecdote on game mechanics: All units in the Black Legion supplement must take VotLW. All of them.

Only the units that have access to begin with ofc. No VotLW cultists.

What does that tell us?

Not a thing.

Even Huron has VotLW. It is a bit misleading tbh.

However, I'm struggling with exactly how the CSMs do the whole gene-seed thing. Nevermind the CSM-birth machine factory, but how most of the other legions recruit (not whole chapters pulling off an Italian maneuver and switching sides at half time). The EoT, or the Maelstrom for that matter, are pretty bad places for storing gene-seed and growing the organs without it becoming useless further down the road.

I get the whole "we drink and we pillage and we do what we please! We get all that we want for free!" (aka Somalian Pirates method) style of securing resources, but the IoM can still mobilise 1,000,000x the resources in a much more reliable and secure fashion than having to rely on the Emperor's Children to guard your medicine cabinet, or rely on the World Eaters to make sure the Chaos Cultist Lorry Drivers' Union doesn't go on strike and mess up your logistics. Nevermind that the Night Lords turning up once in a while to nick your favourite Chaos teddy bear and put its head on a stake every once in a while. The CSMs must have dwindled massively in numbers, but have a much less decentralised chain of command, so they're capable of fast, small operations, but rarely balls to the wall system conquering campaigns.

Don't forget the CSM's took half the Mechanicus and Imperial Army with them, and the Eye of Terror itself is quite huge. They have lots of resources. Additionally, they're in league with the Warp, literal unreality itself which can provide much of what reality may not be able to, plus lots of stuff it just can't. They're also a whole lot less picky about working with Xenos, other human factions, and the like.

Meanwhile the Imperium of Man is grossly mismanaged and is fighting almost everywhere all the time against everyone. They're big, they've got lots of resources, but they're being bled from a thousand cuts.

Not to mention in the case of logistics, they have accessed to possessed gear instead of machine spirits. And while daemons are much more feisty then machine spirits, they're also very, very, very dangerous.

 Psienesis wrote:
... which is ironic, because that is identical to how the Imperium's Space Marines function.... small, fast operations and not balls-to-the-wall campaigns of conquest.

Exactly. As the CSMs don't have access to Horus and a fully array of 9 semi-organised legions, conquest should be impossible.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Don't forget the CSM's took half the Mechanicus and Imperial Army with them, and the Eye of Terror itself is quite huge. They have lots of resources. Additionally, they're in league with the Warp, literal unreality itself which can provide much of what reality may not be able to, plus lots of stuff it just can't. They're also a whole lot less picky about working with Xenos, other human factions, and the like.
Meanwhile the Imperium of Man is grossly mismanaged and is fighting almost everywhere all the time against everyone. They're big, they've got lots of resources, but they're being bled from a thousand cuts.

But they still have the problem ADB described. Asshat Death Guard turning up and nicking their cookie dough ice cream when they're out raiding the IoM for more ice cream and slaves. The IoM is definitely bleeding from a thousand cuts, but bar strategic objectives like the Black Crusades, the CSMs (Not Chaos) don't really ever succeed at anything.

So as far as stable supply of new arms and equipment, manpower and relatively safe base of operations... Well, they don't have any of them (bar a few warbands/legions), as having to scavenge for IoM equipment underlines.

However, bearing in mind this is a game in space set in the 41st millenia with magic, FTLT, super soldiers and chainswords as a viable option on the battlefield, I think I can survive without taking a magnifying glass to certain details

Well, the Alpha Legion seems like it gets gak done. It is constantly destroying Imperial infrastructure, causing Chaos Dameon incursions, destroying SM Chapters, etc. etc.

The fluff has come a long way in recent years to support the fact that CSMs are sustainable, if you take them as CHAOS, a whole with multiple facets, rather than just a Marine force on their own.

CSMs are an elite force, a fine scalpel. All the heavy numbers and grinding warfare would come from the human renegades. Traitor guard, cultists, mutants etc... Considering Chaos corrupts, the potential to swell their ranks with more traitor humans is significant.

There are multiple forge worlds that churn out war machines at an exceptional rate. Slaves are worked to death to power them, and Daemon engines come out the other end. It's not all piratical raids, which wouldn't be a sustainable plan.

12 Black Crusades - the manpower and supplies had to come from somewhere. The Black Legion supplement changed the general opinion of them as well. Rather than 12 failures, which originally made Abaddon look pretty pathetic, they were 12 campaigns that all achieved their own gains. Sure they didn't topple the Imperium as a whole, but if Chaos forces weren't sustainable, how did they manage to run another 11 crusades after the first? Plus why does the 13th Black Crusade look so troubling (projected course reaches Terra as per BL supplement) if Chaos was dwindling?