Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

as the title states how survivable are these things for the average joe guardsman do they still die in droves are is it a lot more sturdy in combat?

They are rather hardy. I think there was one mission in one of the apoc books that was 6 leman russ Vs a tau army and they came out winning. Leman russ are very big heavy tanks. Someone else can correct me, but I think they are the biggest tanks in the IoM

Edit: Oh wait I think someone will have to correct me because I had the russ mixed up with the baneblade.

The russ is deployed in mass like guardsmen. It's more hardy then something that is not a tank, but it's big pluses are in modularity, maintenance and cost.

nomotog wrote:
They are rather hardy. I think there was one mission in one of the apoc books that was 6 leman russ Vs a tau army and they came out winning. Leman russ are very big heavy tanks. Someone else can correct me, but I think they are the biggest tanks in the IoM

Edit: Oh wait I think someone will have to correct me because I had the russ mixed up with the baneblade.

The russ is deployed in mass like guardsmen. It's more hardy then something that is not a tank, but it's big pluses are in modularity, maintenance and cost.

Supposedly it can run on almost any liquid fuel source as well, although that might have been retconned.

Realistically the thing should die in droves considering how bad the chassis is.

MarsNZ wrote:

nomotog wrote:
They are rather hardy. I think there was one mission in one of the apoc books that was 6 leman russ Vs a tau army and they came out winning. Leman russ are very big heavy tanks. Someone else can correct me, but I think they are the biggest tanks in the IoM

Edit: Oh wait I think someone will have to correct me because I had the russ mixed up with the baneblade.

The russ is deployed in mass like guardsmen. It's more hardy then something that is not a tank, but it's big pluses are in modularity, maintenance and cost.

Supposedly it can run on almost any liquid fuel source as well, although that might have been retconned.

I think i remember reading it can still run off wood if need be.

french fry grease

 Wyzilla wrote:
Realistically the thing should die in droves considering how bad the chassis is.

It does. The Tau codex indicates that Hammerheads win against LRs when outnumbered 5 to 1.

Except IOM has ability to make 10 leman Russ,s to replace the 5 lost to said tau.

There scale of production makes tau look tiny.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It does. The Tau codex indicates that Hammerheads win against LRs when outnumbered 5 to 1.

The western Allies used crappy Sherman tanks against German tanks that had better armor and guns and still won. Six Shermans to a Panther, but of those six one was working (it got the kill), three could be repaired and new ones were being shipped in faster than the Germans could replace their losses. Quantity is a quality all of it's own.

Spetulhu wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It does. The Tau codex indicates that Hammerheads win against LRs when outnumbered 5 to 1.

The western Allies used crappy Sherman tanks against German tanks that had better armor and guns and still won. Six Shermans to a Panther, but of those six one was working (it got the kill), three could be repaired and new ones were being shipped in faster than the Germans could replace their losses. Quantity is a quality all of it's own.

Right but that wouldn't have worked so well if they were sending 6 Shermans against an Abrams which could outrange, outgun and outmanoeuvre them so that they were all burning wrecks before ever actually getting in range.

Spetulhu wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It does. The Tau codex indicates that Hammerheads win against LRs when outnumbered 5 to 1.

The western Allies used crappy Sherman tanks against German tanks that had better armor and guns and still won. Six Shermans to a Panther, but of those six one was working (it got the kill), three could be repaired and new ones were being shipped in faster than the Germans could replace their losses. Quantity is a quality all of it's own.

Fortunately the primary german fighting vehicle were the Panzer IV and the StuGIII, both of which werre comparable in firepower and armour to the Sherman.
The Panther itself had it's own flaws and i have yet to see a reliable source for the 5/6 M4 for one Panzer V claim. Allied losses certainly show nothing of that kind.

however good the Tau are there's is this,

they can be churned out on mass by the million.
equipped by the million.
if they wanted and had the time and rescources to spare they could drown the Tau superior designs in hoards upon hoards of tanks, Chimeras, and such Armour.

 jhe90 wrote:
however good the Tau are there's is this,

they can be churned out on mass by the million.
equipped by the million.
if they wanted and had the time and rescources to spare they could drown the Tau superior designs in hoards upon hoards of tanks, Chimeras, and such Armour.

It's hard to drown an enemy that uses hovering tanks and masses of air support. Big columns of tanks are very easy to stop, you just have to lure them into tight spaces (canyons, city streets etc.), immobilise the ones at the front and back then take out the rest at your own leisure.

Also masses of tanks need masses of fuel and ammunition, they need lots of crews and mechanics who need lots of food and water. Keeping that amount of armour supplied in a warzone where you don't have a perfectly reliable supply network in place is a very difficult task.

Leman Russes are described as very survivable when deployed properly and covering their rear armor.

In the Fluff, there is little that a proper armored charge cannot defeat in open ground (Yeah Grizmund! Killing Shriven vermin!).

In game, Leman Russes reflect this with AV 14/14/10 or 14/14/11, and the ability to be squadroned.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

nomotog wrote:
They are rather hardy. I think there was one mission in one of the apoc books that was 6 leman russ Vs a tau army and they came out winning. Leman russ are very big heavy tanks. Someone else can correct me, but I think they are the biggest tanks in the IoM

Edit: Oh wait I think someone will have to correct me because I had the russ mixed up with the baneblade.

The russ is deployed in mass like guardsmen. It's more hardy then something that is not a tank, but it's big pluses are in modularity, maintenance and cost.

Supposedly it can run on almost any liquid fuel source as well, although that might have been retconned.

I think i remember reading it can still run off wood if need be.

Burn is burn. It could be a steam engine then it could just run on anything combustible.

yes they require logistics but the IOM is one giant logistical base , with huge resources at its control.

the Leman russ is a easy to Maintain, hardy and well armed and reliable battle tank, its engine car run on any flammable liquid fuel.

its not complex like the mighty baneblade and the regular tasks to keep it running day to day can be performed by its crew.

all in all a good tank.

From a fluff perspective they are very rugged. They have a 10k years service record, are the prime battle tank for the imperial guard and are the most widely deployed tank in the imperium.

However, from a xenos fluff perspective they never seem to perform well. As the main imperial battle tank whenever there is mention of anti tank weapons, it is very often the leman russ that is taking the brunt of it. Plot armour is a powerful capability.

In terms of gameplay they are ok. AV14 on the front is nice, but their mediocre side and rear armour values let them down.

Fortunately, this is a thread about Leman Russ, not about Tau Teh Awezums.

FAV14 suggests that from the front, its armour is pretty much the toughest anything can possibly be in the 41st millenium. Nothing, not even planetary defence bunkers, not even Imperator titans, has stronger than armour 14.

That said, any smart opponent will flank them, which isn't hard to do because they're slow. They can barely grind along at infantry walking speed under the current rules, and even the previous, fluffier ones had them being like RNLI lifeboats - not the fasted boats around, but they'll do those fifteen knots through a typhoon just as well as they'll do them through open seas.

The Russ might be slow, but it is extremely maneuverable. It's been mentioned several times in the fluff that, for such a large tank, it can turn on a dime and it has a very fast rotation rate. It's a common tactic with Imperial tank units to respond to a flank attack by halting and immediately going into a reverse turn, so suddenly the flankers are faced with the tank's frontal armor.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Fortunately, this is a thread about Leman Russ, not about Tau Teh Awezums.

The OP asked how survivable they are. I answered. It's everyone else that's derailing this.

They're not very survivable at all against Tau.

When hit by a rail gun, it the vacuum effect is so strong that the Russ's crew will be sucked out the exit hole as a human jelly smear, meaning even a hit that doesn't hit the engine or ammo storage will still kill the thing.

Like Big Blind Bill said, the LR is great if you're facing Imperial or Chaos forces, because their tech sucks. You put it up against alien tanks, and they die in droves. It just doesn't have a way to deal with lances or gauss or rail guns.

Spetulhu wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It does. The Tau codex indicates that Hammerheads win against LRs when outnumbered 5 to 1.

The western Allies used crappy Sherman tanks against German tanks that had better armor and guns and still won. Six Shermans to a Panther, but of those six one was working (it got the kill), three could be repaired and new ones were being shipped in faster than the Germans could replace their losses. Quantity is a quality all of it's own.

Actually, the Sherman tank was an excellent piece of hardware, definitely equivalent (if differently prioritized) to a Panzer IV.

The Leman Russ's capabilities are dependent on who is writing i, sadly, like most things in 40k. Personally, I view it as a capable, durable, and reliable main battle tank, generally better than average armor and firepower, but low speed and poor communication/sensors.

Could you guys stop this tau v imperium stuff before it gets out of hand. Just stop. It adds nothing to the question at hand.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
FAV14 suggests that from the front, its armour is pretty much the toughest anything can possibly be in the 41st millenium. Nothing, not even planetary defence bunkers, not even Imperator titans, has stronger than armour 14.

[Nitpick] The Aquila Strongpoint defence bunker has AV 15, and the Gorgon's front armour is so tough that it's better than AV14 (so they've represented it as AV 14 with an invulnerable save, because... reasons. Possibly to protect from lances). [/nitpick]

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
From a fluff perspective they are very rugged. They have a 10k years service record, are the prime battle tank for the imperial guard and are the most widely deployed tank in the imperium.
However, from a xenos fluff perspective they never seem to perform well. As the main imperial battle tank whenever there is mention of anti tank weapons, it is very often the leman russ that is taking the brunt of it. Plot armour is a powerful capability.

This.
GW fluff rarely spends much time on poorly equipped PDFs, renegade militias, cheap local products, etc. This means that the lowest-tech tanks mentioned with any frequency (if we ignore orks) are the basic Imperial tanks. This means that the Leman Russ is often shown facing the AT weapons of sophisticated species like the Tau, Eldar, and Necron, etc (which can cut through tanks easily)*, rather than the foes they face more often and with more success - the secessionist PDFs, renegade militias, or the countless minor alien races that bedevil the Imperium.
For a good description of Imperial tanks facing off against less-advanced tanks, see the Tanith "Honour Guard" book. The Chaos forces on the planet use various types of "tanks"** that are even cheaper, more numerous, and lower-tech than the Imperial Leman Russ. The book spends a good number of pages talking about how high-tech the Leman Russ is, and even more pages on the well-drilled Imperial tank force shredding the numerically superior chaos tanks.

*A high-tech alien weapon AT weapon wouldn't be an AT weapon if it can't shred the armour of the basic human tank, would it?
**Actual tanks (rather than GW tanks), plus assault guns. Not APCs, self-propelled artillery, etc, which GW keeps calling "tanks".

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Fortunately, this is a thread about Leman Russ, not about Tau Teh Awezums.

FAV14 suggests that from the front, its armour is pretty much the toughest anything can possibly be in the 41st millenium. Nothing, not even planetary defence bunkers, not even Imperator titans, has stronger than armour 14.

That said, any smart opponent will flank them, which isn't hard to do because they're slow. They can barely grind along at infantry walking speed under the current rules, and even the previous, fluffier ones had them being like RNLI lifeboats - not the fasted boats around, but they'll do those fifteen knots through a typhoon just as well as they'll do them through open seas.

The smart opponent simply shoots their tracks that lack suspension, the belly of the tank which you can probably bounce a shot into, just hammer the front armor until it breaks as it isn't properly slanted, target weaker armor near the sponsons, or just hit the turret at a flat 90 degree angle, which is fairly easy to do against a Russ.


If I ever make an Imperial Guard army, I'm kitbashing my Leman Russes with Predators so they don't look woefully stupid. Or Chimeras.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It does. The Tau codex indicates that Hammerheads win against LRs when outnumbered 5 to 1.

The western Allies used crappy Sherman tanks against German tanks that had better armor and guns and still won. Six Shermans to a Panther, but of those six one was working (it got the kill), three could be repaired and new ones were being shipped in faster than the Germans could replace their losses. Quantity is a quality all of it's own.

Actually, the Sherman tank was an excellent piece of hardware, definitely equivalent (if differently prioritized) to a Panzer IV.

The Leman Russ's capabilities are dependent on who is writing i, sadly, like most things in 40k. Personally, I view it as a capable, durable, and reliable main battle tank, generally better than average armor and firepower, but low speed and poor communication/sensors.

Armor and capability don't matter at all when the Leman Russ is so poorly designed that you can actually glace shots straight into the turret and has a profile bigger then a bloody office building. You could write a book on how awfully designed the Leman Russ is, and why it would suck in combat to use. The only difference between the Leman Russ and the Halo Scoprion is that the Leman Russ is at least stated to be awesome and powerful and has some legitimately lethal armaments. Not to mention Imperial magi tech which somehow works despite everything saying otherwise.

... you're trying to argue realism in 40K, which has no place here.

The LR has been used by the Imperium since the era of the Great Crusade to conquer the galaxy. That is all that needs be said about its capabilities.

 Psienesis wrote:
... you're trying to argue realism in 40K, which has no place here.

The LR has been used by the Imperium since the era of the Great Crusade to conquer the galaxy. That is all that needs be said about its capabilities.

You can conquer anything with a sufficient number of it. Even if you can't penetrate the enemy armor, you can make enough of them to generate a black hole.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Realistically the thing should die in droves considering how bad the chassis is.

It does. The Tau codex indicates that Hammerheads win against LRs when outnumbered 5 to 1.

Just to clarify, Hammerheads were outnumbered 5-1 by an armoured company, not LRs specifically. As such there could also have been hellhound or devil dogs or malcadors or chimeras (i know they aren't tanks but they could have been there too) ect, and there's no telling what Russes they had with them either. Of course a Hammerhead will beat a punisher or eradicator since they couldn't hurt the Hammerhead. We also know that the Russes never got in range, which means (since battle cannon range and rail gun range is the same) they didn't have LRBT or Vanquishers with them, which are by far the biggest, if not only, threats to a Hammerhead. Also the Hammerheads weren't alone, they were part of an armour interdiction cadre, which also contains Skyrays and who knows how many different varieties of suits. Lastly this was during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which, unless I am mistaken, was commanded by an incompetent general.

So not a very good source on LR survivability, if for no other reason than being too vague.

My own thoughts on the LR is, it is a really tough, really slow metal box with a lot of fire power. But this opinion is mostly formed on table top performance and the Dawn of War series.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Armor and capability don't matter at all when the Leman Russ is so poorly designed that

By that argument, the only tanks in 40k that are any good are Eldar, which are the only tank designs that are reasonably designed for a futuristic war-- no, Tau designs aren't either, they're pretty crap.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Armor and capability don't matter at all when the Leman Russ is so poorly designed that

By that argument, the only tanks in 40k that are any good are Eldar, which are the only tank designs that are reasonably designed for a futuristic war-- no, Tau designs aren't either, they're pretty crap.

So its confirmed that wave serpents are op?

Also where exactly in which book was the whole 5-1 thing?

Even in most fluff they aren't particularly durable. They die in droves in Gunheads, as well as every Gaunt's Ghost book they feature in and most of the SM books I've seen them in.

Like most things in the Imperium, they compensate against xeno equivalents via sheer numbers.