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A while back someone put up a poll asking if it was appropriate for players in a tournament to forfeit a game or not.

My answer is this, Better to Concede Victory by forfeiture then to chase away a gamer so that they never want to play again.

First off I'm not Rich, nor do I have a lot of expendable income to throw away on models, so when the new stuff comes out I don't run out right away to buy the newest stuff to buff up my Space Wolf Army. I pick my games carefully so that I can enjoy the match and have fun.

I do not go to Tournaments often anymore because I am not a top tier player. I know that I do not have much of any chance at all of winning a game at a tournament. Instead I go as a way of socializing and interacting with friends I have made who are also gamers.

With that said the only reason I went to the War for Tots tournament @ Hit Point Hobbies in Aberdeen, NC, yesterday, was to have some fun and support the Annual Charity event which raises money for Toys for Tots by having an auction for donated models, but when your first match up is a game that you will neither enjoy nor have fun with shouldn't it be all right to politely concede victory to your opponent rather than get upset and leave in disgruntlement before playing the last two rounds.

The tournament was an 1850 Point event which allowed 1 super heavy per army and Lords of War.

Here is how it went down.

After being set up in the first round against a Necron army that I had no hope of beating with my Space Wolves, I decided to forfeit the game against my first opponent because his choice of list was a C'tan Shard which I had no hope of stopping and personally believe should not be allowed in any regular games of 40k but only in Apocalypse. His Commander was the requisite Overlord on the Command Barge, 3 Annihilation barges which are no big deal, and 3 Nightscythes with 10 Warriors in each one. Since I knew I could not defeat the army once I had seen it.

I decided to forfeit the match rather than get a bad taste in my mouth that would sit with me for the rest of the day so that I could at least enjoy my next 2 matches. A regular of the store, who wasn't even playing in the tournament, however decided to bully me instead of leaving well enough alone, he is a Necron player and had coached my opponent on what to use in his army and oddly enough does not think of the C'Tan Shard as being unbeatable nor is it in his opinion overpowered. Well, in my opinion, he is an idiot. I finally agreed to play the game with every intention of trying to defeat my opponent because in the opinion of the bully it's bad form to forfeit the first round of a tournament. Each round was 2 hours 50 minutes. We started a half hour late and finished an hour before every other player in the tournament.

We played the game out, my Long Fangs were first to die on turn 1, followed closely by a unit of Wolf Guard Terminators and a Wolf Priest in Terminator Armour on turn 2 to the C'tan. He parked each Annihilation barge on 3 of the objectives and his Command barge the 4th main objective in the center of the table. My first 2 drop pods landed on turn 1 disgorging Grey Hunters, they did not even scratch the Annihilation barge with melta and plasma shots. The C'tan than wiped out a unit of Grey Hunter's with a Stomp Missile Attacks or what ever that attack is, while the Annihilation barges received reinforcement from the 2 of the 3 Nightscythes and reduced the second Grey Hunter Pack to just 3 models. Turn 3 my third drop Pod landed with another Grey Hunter Pack which destroyed an Annihilation Barge giving me my only kill of the game and my Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour arrived with a Wolf Guard Terminator Pack armed with Chain-fists and Combi-Melta Guns. I put 1 wound on the C'tan, the C'tan responded by wiping out the Terminators and the Wolflord. I miss Eternal Warrior.

The game also ended on turn 3 as the Nightscythes moved around unmolested and my remaining Grey Hunter packs were gunned down by gauze weapons from 3 squads of Warriors, 2 Annihilation Barges, and the Overlord on his command barge. Since the mission was Crusade he took all the objectives and then had the audacity to ask if he should continue the game to see if he could destroy the Drop Pods.

I packed up models, loaded up my car and left without playing the next two rounds, because the first match left a foul taste in my mouth.

I fully expected to see some nasty lists in the tournament and new I would have some tough games against each one, however I wasn't there to win, I was there to have fun. What I did not expect was for T.O.'s to allow non-players at the tournament to browbeat and bully me for my decision until I changed my mind in order for my opponent to get an easy victory.

I've come to the conclusion that 40k sucks and I no longer want any part of it or anything that reminds me of the game. I won't even play digital versions of the game anymore. I'm making a bonfire this evening out of all of my models, rulebooks, and Codices and getting rid of everything that reminds me of the game.

I'm not quite sure what you're expecting to accomplish with this thread.

If you do decide to get rid of your minis, I'll have them. I'll pay the shipping costs so you don't have to worry about that. I'll gladly take them off your hands...

Alternatively, you may want to stop and think. Maybe calm down a little, some deep breathing always helps me. Done? Good. Now then, don't burn everything dude. If that's the way you feel, just sell it all and take up something else. 40k is not optimized at all for competitive play, that's why there are all conquering lists that beat all before them, and only 3-4 of them. Which, considering the history and the amount of models and units available is a travesty.
I don't know what the local gaming scene is like around your area, but maybe pick up Warmahordes instead? It's better optimized with any force capable of beating any other under the right circumstances. Or Infinity? Or any of the Mantic games? There are plenty of alternatives out there mate. If you just want to quit 40k do so, but sell your stuff and invest in something else. You said yourself you are not rich. Use the money made and invest wisely in another rule set that suits you better.

Sounds like you went to a tournament with a list that perhaps isn´t suitable to tournaments if you had to concede before even starting? It sounds like you were aware that there would be tough lists coming, but you still somehow weren´t prepared for it in the end afterall ( as you say you went to have fun, yet your fun ended before the first game even began, basically. ) It kinda sounds like you already had some sort of attitude beforehand (?)

It sounds like you´re taking the game a bit too seriously, and for a player like you I´d advise to avoid 40K tournaments completely. I´d maybe wait a week before creating your bonfire anyways, I understand you´re venting your frustration.

Also, it´s not the games fault if there were douchebags bullying you.

Cortland_Greyhawk wrote:
... but when your first match up is a game that you will neither enjoy nor have fun with shouldn't it be all right to politely concede victory to your opponent rather than get upset and leave in disgruntlement before playing the last two rounds.

You're going to get bad matchups in tournaments, for sure. The problem with forfeiting is that people pay their money expecting to be playing however many games are on the schedule. By just forfeiting instead of playing the game out, you're not just removing yourself from a game you don't think you'll enjoy (without actually knowing that, unless you know the other player and already know you don't like playing against him... I've had some awesome games where I was totally outmatched but the other player was fun to play against) ... you're also forcing the other player to miss out on playing one of the games that they paid for.

And, of course, you potentially mess up the seeding for the 2nd round.

What I did not expect was for T.O.'s to allow non-players at the tournament to browbeat and bully me for my decision until I changed my mind in order for my opponent to get an easy victory.

The first question would be: Did you talk to the TO about it?

I've come to the conclusion that 40k sucks and I no longer want any part of it or anything that reminds me of the game. I won't even play digital versions of the game anymore. I'm making a bonfire this evening out of all of my models, rulebooks, and Codices and getting rid of everything that reminds me of the game.

That seems like a rather extreme reaction to a single bad experience.

First off I'm not Rich

You've eliminated one name, but there are so many others to choose from, so that's not helping us figure out your name.

In all seriousness. You don't need to drop a lot of money to enjoy the hobby. The cheapest way to do that is by altering your attitude.

You said you came to have fun and were not concerned about winning. Then you immediately concede a game because you can't win it. If you're not running a top tier list in a tournament, you will get a stomping. Then after that you end up matched up against people with similar skill/power level. That's how I approach tournaments. I don't build lists where the opponent does not get to participate in the game. So I expect to lose games. It's important to learn how to both win and lose with class.

If you have a bad match-up. Make up goals for yourself to keep the game fun. Try to kill the shard. Or shoot down a plane. Or have one survivor to tell the saga of the Necron slaughter.

If you're still raging and want to take your toys and go home. Don't set them ablaze. Sell them and donate the cash to the charity.

Completely over reacting to one bad gaming experience.
You had a bad matchup in a tournament that probably didnt suit your army/style.
Everyone has been there.
Quitting not only 40k but wargaming in general is simply cutting off your nose to spite.

Take some time, relax and get in some friendlier games.
It sounds like youre fairly worked up but that will pass and youll regret dumping your collections badly.

Proof you're not done: you're posting here.

BTW pm me, I'll pay the shipping if you want to send your models to me instead of burning them.

Hey, I get that you didn't have much fun, and paid a fee to not have fun.

You kind of have to distinguish between two separate things, though: getting stomped because at a tournament is one thing, and feeling like you were bullied.

I get the first part, because well, you see that in many tournaments of any game. Goes with the territory, and you expected it anyhow.

I don't really get the second part, because from what I read, someone went to help another player by giving them advice. In fairness, I just don't see how that qualifies as bullying (did I miss or misread something?), I mean, someone could have given you tactical help, too, and that would have been advice that you would remember, and take to future games. That wouldn't be bullying the other player, in my mind.

Also, there is a takeaway -- losing a game is never a bad thing, as long as you learn why you lost it, and don't get into the situation of losing the same way, again.

Anyhow, sorry to hear you had a rough experience, man. Frankly, I don't think tournament scenes (of any game) are a healthy thing to play in, if you don't have a thick skin, lots of experience, and a burning desire to win. You can have the tournament experience without the anguish simply by watching

I kind of feel for the OP on this. I play regularly, but in a pretty casual environment. I really don't even consider tournaments because I just don't like the play style/ attitude. It does not sit well with me. I will go to the tournaments to watch some games socialize a bit but really never consider playing. I could probably compete, I just find I don't want to.

It is too bad too. I have played other games in the past and liked playing in tournaments for those games, I just can't do it for 40k.

John, before you quit completely and sell your stuff, come by hobbytown on Thursday and I'll play a 5th edition game if you like. Your wolves were a lot better in 5th.

I agree with what Talys said about tournaments. People that play in tournaments are wired completely differently from those of us who just want to play for fun and don't need to win every single game. They are competitive and they will exploit every rule to their advantage in order to win.

That is fine too, but the problems come when you mix completitive and non-competitive players together.

In my experience, I've found that playing tournament players even in a casual setting is difficult, because they find it hard to avoid building strong lists which will easily beat my incomplete, still-being-tested-out-army. That might just be the guys at my local club though.

My advice would be not to get yourself into this kind of setting again. It's obviously not your thing. Which is fine! Approach the hobby in a way that makes you happy. Not one that makes you feel like this.

Hope you decide to stick around.

Two things to never do so you can enjoy 40K:

1. Play in tournaments

2. Allow yourself to feel bullied. Anyone bullying you over a tabletop game is a loser, and thus inferior to you.

id say it was your own fault for a few reasons.
1. You have to expect cheesy combos/nits in a tourney setting. with you have to go "loaded for bear"if you expect to win.
NOW, that being said, there is nothing wrong with being the nice guy who loses every game with grace and has a ell painted and themed army. often you can win a sportsmanship award for this. I know I have on several occasions even when I didnt lose every game. Regardless you k ew what to expect so shouldnt have been surprised.
2. If you want to forfiet before the game starts. That is your decision to make and if thats what you really wanted to do, you honestly shouldnt have let yourself be bullied into playing a game you didnt wanna play.

I'd say the ultra competetive scene just isnt for you and your more like those of us who the ultra competetive players call basement players. Not a bad thing to those of us who are basement players despite what the ultra competetive players say, just that we play for fun instead of doing anything for the almighty win.

 insaniak wrote:
By just forfeiting instead of playing the game out, you're not just removing yourself from a game you don't think you'll enjoy (without actually knowing that, unless you know the other player and already know you don't like playing against him... I've had some awesome games where I was totally outmatched but the other player was fun to play against) ... you're also forcing the other player to miss out on playing one of the games that they paid for.

This.

OP, you went to a competitive event knowing that people were going to bring tournament lists. And then you decided that, because your opponent didn't bring a list that you approved of, you would make them sit around and be bored for the next three hours instead of playing the game. Your opponent had every right to try to persuade you to play so that they wouldn't be wasting their time.

Also, if you really destroy all of your gaming stuff instead of selling or donating it you're a .

 scottmmmm wrote:
I agree with what Talys said about tournaments. People that play in tournaments are wired completely differently from those of us who just want to play for fun and don't need to win every single game. They are competitive and they will exploit every rule to their advantage in order to win.

This is just laughably wrong.

Deleted opinion.

Nothing wrong with forfieting. The other guy had every right to try to convince you to play. Bullying you into against your wishes was crossing a line. Far better for him to accept your decision, take full points for the match that he might not otherwise have gotten and get a game in with someone else who was there. Possibly someone who wanted to play but wasnt able to get in on the tourney and might not otherwise have gotten to play.

If someone forfiets to me that way in a tourney, I'll accept full points and grab a game with someone else or scout out the other armies to mentally strategize in case I end up playing one of them next. No way would I be low enough to try to force someone to do something after they say no. No means no. Theres a term for forcing them after they say no.

 scottmmmm wrote:
People that play in tournaments are wired completely differently from those of us who just want to play for fun and don't need to win every single game. They are competitive and they will exploit every rule to their advantage in order to win.

This is a gross generalisation.

I play in tournaments. I don't do so expecting to win (I generally lose more games than I win, and have never has a problem with that). I do so because I don't have a lot of time for gaming these days, and a tournament is an ready way to set aside a block of time to just indulge in my hobby.

The tournaments I generally enter, at least half the guys there are in a similar situation. Others are more active gamers, but still just enter for the fun of it.

Those who are there specifically to try to win it are a distinct minority, and of those, the number of guys who would actively try to exploit rules to do so is even smaller.


Some tournaments are a bit more cut-throat, certainly. But to put everyone who plays in tournaments in the same basket is an extreme stretch.

Personally I have played a few tournament games (friendly tournaments, not super serious) where I had a very uphill fight due to Tyranids having to advance against dug-in gunline conditions. I still played the games as well as I could, and on the occasion I actually won it was all the more satisfying.

So, let me get this straight...

You know your army isn't what you'd call "tournament optimized."

You go to tournament anyway.

First round you get an opponent with a tournament optimized army.

You refuse to play against him.

You then get "bullied" into playing.

You lose.

You immediately pack your stuff and go home.

Now you want to throw all your toys in the bin.


Yeah, it's totally those other guys it's something wrong with. You sound like a well-adjusted and mature individual who is definitely capable of interacting with society.

Personally, I would have played the game just to play and hope to pull off a few extra points to help me later in the tourney. Besides, I'm like many others who have posted and dont get to play often.
But if you make a decision to not play (however much I might disagree with your decision), I feel that you have the right to make that decision and others should respect it.

Can I just say, OP, is your Dakka profile accurate? Because, well, if it is, sheesh..

Take a long break greyhawk, play computer games or what not, then decide, I'm in the same frame of mind, 40k just ceased to exist as a fun game for me and had forgeworld not released the hh stuff I'd have left entirely.

I find there are several problems with the game, primarily badly written rules, secondarily the internet and how it has allowed certain people to break the game and thus spread the problem, yes this Games workshops fault too but players seem to refuse to admit they have exacerbated the problem, yes it's legal to take a shard, should you? No, even in competitive scenes, that thing should be left to campaign endings and such, I know people will not agree and that's fine, there are many ways to enjoy games, but certain things should just be common sense

 EVIL INC wrote:
Nothing wrong with forfieting. The other guy had every right to try to convince you to play. Bullying you into against your wishes was crossing a line. Far better for him to accept your decision, take full points for the match that he might not otherwise have gotten and get a game in with someone else who was there. Possibly someone who wanted to play but wasnt able to get in on the tourney and might not otherwise have gotten to play.

If someone forfiets to me that way in a tourney, I'll accept full points and grab a game with someone else or scout out the other armies to mentally strategize in case I end up playing one of them next. No way would I be low enough to try to force someone to do something after they say no. No means no. Theres a term for forcing them after they say no.

Well we don't know what this 'bullying' consisted of, I doubt there was much bullying involved really. Trying to persuade someone is different to bullying. If he actually was being a bully then that's different but we don't know what happened do we.

Not that I know anything really about tournaments, but I, personally, would think that, if you knew you were going to lose a game because you were playing a champion or his list was really good, that it would be better just to play a fun game, knowing you are about to lose, rather than just giving up and waiting around for 3 hours for a better game. You might as well, in this game, play a few rounds where you ignore objectives, and just try to kill as much stuff as possible for the glory of Russ (if you get what I mean). If you do not consider yourself to be a tournament tier player, then either don't go to tournaments, or come expecting there to be lists better than yours and players better than you there. And also, if you are not such a player, you don't really need to get upset if you lose a game, especially if it was obviously against a better army.

This is my take on the subject. That is how I would handle the situation, however all players are different.

PS: You know that, rather than burning all your models, you could get lots of $$$$ off eBay, or give it to somebody as a gift .

So you forfeit a game because you didn't like someone's list, and your first response is burn everything.....

I'm Ron Burgundy?

 insaniak wrote:

 scottmmmm wrote:
People that play in tournaments are wired completely differently from those of us who just want to play for fun and don't need to win every single game. They are competitive and they will exploit every rule to their advantage in order to win.

This is a gross generalisation.

I play in tournaments. I don't do so expecting to win (I generally lose more games than I win, and have never has a problem with that). I do so because I don't have a lot of time for gaming these days, and a tournament is an ready way to set aside a block of time to just indulge in my hobby.

The tournaments I generally enter, at least half the guys there are in a similar situation. Others are more active gamers, but still just enter for the fun of it.

Those who are there specifically to try to win it are a distinct minority, and of those, the number of guys who would actively try to exploit rules to do so is even smaller.


Some tournaments are a bit more cut-throat, certainly. But to put everyone who plays in tournaments in the same basket is an extreme stretch.

You're right, I did generalise a bit. I should have said that this is the experience I've had with with tournament players in my area. I actually did go on to say this, but the first sentence was too harsh. Sorry about that.

To explain a little, the example that sticks out most for me was when I went to a game at the local club to play a guy who said he wanted to get back into 40K by having a casual game. He mentioned he'd played in tournaments before but wanted a different kind of game. I wanted to try and learn the rules in a friendly environment.

I turned up with my Dark Eldar army, he pulls out a Tau gunline. He doesn't move them for the whole game, because "that's what Tau do". He declares shooting against a unit that I'd said I was putting into cover on the previous turn - pointing out that he can see the side of a leg. He gets up to around 10-0 victory points, where I have one unit left and tries to crush the last unit on the table even after I'd said that the game was over.

Don't get me wrong, my list was awful - so I wasn't fussed about not winning. But we were just at that game for two totally different reasons - despite both agreeing it was a casual game beforehand.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
By just forfeiting instead of playing the game out, you're not just removing yourself from a game you don't think you'll enjoy (without actually knowing that, unless you know the other player and already know you don't like playing against him... I've had some awesome games where I was totally outmatched but the other player was fun to play against) ... you're also forcing the other player to miss out on playing one of the games that they paid for.

This.

OP, you went to a competitive event knowing that people were going to bring tournament lists. And then you decided that, because your opponent didn't bring a list that you approved of, you would make them sit around and be bored for the next three hours instead of playing the game. Your opponent had every right to try to persuade you to play so that they wouldn't be wasting their time.

Also, if you really destroy all of your gaming stuff instead of selling or donating it you're a .

Pretty much... 40k definitely has its problems, but in this case it sounds more like the issue is your attitude towards the game rather than the game itself.

The Transcendent C'Tan is very powerful and can and will wipe out units every round, but it is far from unbeatable. going to a tournament that allows super heavies you have to be expecting that people are going to bring them and going to have more optimized/min maxed lists.

I go to local tournaments that are somewhat competitive but nobody really bring super heavies, that is generally reserved for if both people have them.