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Using the necron transport skimmer as an example, if you jink do the passangers also snap shot? And if so does embarking after it has jinked change that?

If I remember right this is one of those curious things.
As the Rule does not mention the Embarked Unit, there is nothing forcing them to Snap Shot, strange as that is.

Mostly because the Dark Eldar players would whine endlessly (as a Dark Eldar player I can tell you I am immensely fond of this omission)

There is currently no rule affecting passengers of Jinking transports while there's a rule making them snap shot if the transport moves at cruising speed.

That will be fixed some day but it may take another seven editions before it happens. Or who knows, GW actually starts writing good FAQs.

Ah gotta love obscure rules. Ended up playing it as they do snap shoot cause logically they should. Though i can see both aides of the argument if the unit embarks after the jink happened

Think of it like this:
Whoever gets the jink cover save fires snap shots
If the vehicle is wrecked and the passengers disembark, do they get a 4+ cover save?
Obviously not. So they can fire normally.

 humanas wrote:
Think of it like this:
Whoever gets the jink cover save fires snap shots
If the vehicle is wrecked and the passengers disembark, do they get a 4+ cover save?
Obviously not. So they can fire normally.

Why would you advise anyone to start thinking in a weird way that matches the rules where they're wrong.

Clearly any skimmer should be able to jink at any time, since they can see the incoming bullets just as well even when the word "target" is not used".
Just like passengers on an open topped transport won't be able to aim any better than the vehicle's own tracking enhanced weapons.
Just like vehicles should fire overwatch since they can fire just like anyone else in the shooting phase.
Just like a fast moving vehicle should not be hit on rear armor because it's so easy to stick a grenade in the ventilation duct when a tank is swooshing past at 120Kph.



When the rules are stupid, just take a note of it and hope that it changes for the better, don't start thinking weird just to respect the author's wittew feewings.

morgoth wrote:

Clearly any skimmer should be able to jink at any time, since they can see the incoming bullets just as well even when the word "target" is not used".

Absolutely.

morgoth wrote:

Just like passengers on an open topped transport won't be able to aim any better than the vehicle's own tracking enhanced weapons.

Except that the crew is busy focusing on not getting hit, the guys in the back can still focus on shooting. Many vehicles only have one pilot and clearly dodging incoming fire is his priority.

morgoth wrote:

Just like vehicles should fire overwatch since they can fire just like anyone else in the shooting phase.

Passengers in open topped vehicles can fire overwatch in 7th.

morgoth wrote:

Just like a fast moving vehicle should not be hit on rear armor because it's so easy to stick a grenade in the ventilation duct when a tank is swooshing past at 120Kph.

I'm sure the magnets 38k years in the future are probably better at sticking to vehicles. Plus, vehicles in 40k aren't going 120 kph or they would probably have rules like fliers.


Clearly he is trying to help someone with an easy way to remember the rules. Technically the rules can't be "wrong" because they are the rules. Your way would actually make it harder for someone to remember the rule because you have to remember every single exception.

Skimmers use to have rules like flyers, but they changed that.

Warmonger2757 wrote:

I'm sure the magnets 38k years in the future are probably better at sticking to vehicles. Plus, vehicles in 40k aren't going 120 kph or they would probably have rules like fliers.


Clearly he is trying to help someone with an easy way to remember the rules. Technically the rules can't be "wrong" because they are the rules. Your way would actually make it harder for someone to remember the rule because you have to remember every single exception.

Good, so those magnets don't affect my wraithbone vehicles. perfect. no more melta bombs on me then.

If you have to feth up your brain to have an easy way to remember the rules, I would consider the drawbacks. maybe.

Just so you know, any material is affected by magnetism if the magnetic field is strong enough.

However, if you don't like that idea, try this one instead. The grenade has tiny nano hairs that allow it to stick to any surface using van der Waals forces to keep it attached.

Or Magic.

Or it's a sock covered in tar

Nilok,
My personal favourite is Higgs-field generators, nothing like manipulating mass to make two things stick together nice and tight.

 Nilok wrote:
Just so you know, any material is affected by magnetism if the magnetic field is strong enough.

Just so you know, should a magnet be that powerful, the Space Marine attempting to throw it would be dead when he received it.

Every magnetic field affects everything in the universe, no matter how strong the magnetic field is, it's just that like the gravity pull of a paper tissue it's not really relevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Nilok,
My personal favourite is Higgs-field generators, nothing like manipulating mass to make two things stick together nice and tight.

That's just dumb.

What would store an amount of energy large enough to create enough mass from energy to generate a relevant gravitational pull without being just as heavy to begin with ?

You sound like the people who think a miniature black hole could go crazy and eat the earth when the only thing it can do is expand back to normal densities because it lacks the mass to be a black hole in the first place.

Look, it's pretty simple:

It's magnets, and it works on wraithbone for exactly the same reason poison effects Necrons: Rule consistency over simulationism.

Morgoth,
It is a fictional technology based on discoveries that we have only just confirmed, how partials are granted mass to begin with.

While there are going to be many 'unanswered questions' concerning fictional technology based on this discovery, I don't think the weight of the technology is going to be an issue in this case. Such technology exists to change how matter interacts with the Higgs field, usually with an end result of the object safely gaining or losing mass. As Weight is literally the product of mass and near-by gravity fields, reducing the mass of an object is a very good way to greatly reduce the weight of the object. It would is far greater a problem to ponder how much energy would be needed to overcome localized gravity though manipulation of mass, so the two objects are more attracted to each other then to the ground underneath them.

There is also the possible to use this fictional technology to create negative mass, which does all sorts of strange things to energy and might answer it's own problems.
Mass-Manipulation is a possible candidate for hover-technology, repelling-fields and a lot of other sci-fi technology for a reason....

Tangential energy is holding this thread together.

I'm with grendel on this one. Tar sock. Foolproof.

Imperial chewing gum is some industrial-grade sticky gak. It's used as an instrument of torture by the Inquisition to extract teeth.

JinxDragon wrote:
Morgoth,
It is a fictional technology based on discoveries that we have only just confirmed, how partials are granted mass to begin with.

While there are going to be many 'unanswered questions' concerning fictional technology based on this discovery, I don't think the weight of the technology is going to be an issue in this case. Such technology exists to change how matter interacts with the Higgs field, usually with an end result of the object safely gaining or losing mass. As Weight is literally the product of mass and near-by gravity fields, reducing the mass of an object is a very good way to greatly reduce the weight of the object. It would is far greater a problem to ponder how much energy would be needed to overcome localized gravity though manipulation of mass, so the two objects are more attracted to each other then to the ground underneath them.

There is also the possible to use this fictional technology to create negative mass, which does all sorts of strange things to energy and might answer it's own problems.
Mass-Manipulation is a possible candidate for hover-technology, repelling-fields and a lot of other sci-fi technology for a reason....

Jinx,

It's a dumb technology that ignores every single thing we know about Physics, including everything we know about the Higgs boson.

It's not possible and it's never going to happen.

I'm glad my sci-fi isn't full of completely slowed technology based on nothing but bs. If it's going to be based on random beliefs, at least call it magic.

morgoth wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Morgoth,
It is a fictional technology based on discoveries that we have only just confirmed, how partials are granted mass to begin with.

While there are going to be many 'unanswered questions' concerning fictional technology based on this discovery, I don't think the weight of the technology is going to be an issue in this case. Such technology exists to change how matter interacts with the Higgs field, usually with an end result of the object safely gaining or losing mass. As Weight is literally the product of mass and near-by gravity fields, reducing the mass of an object is a very good way to greatly reduce the weight of the object. It would is far greater a problem to ponder how much energy would be needed to overcome localized gravity though manipulation of mass, so the two objects are more attracted to each other then to the ground underneath them.

There is also the possible to use this fictional technology to create negative mass, which does all sorts of strange things to energy and might answer it's own problems.
Mass-Manipulation is a possible candidate for hover-technology, repelling-fields and a lot of other sci-fi technology for a reason....

Jinx,

It's a dumb technology that ignores every single thing we know about Physics, including everything we know about the Higgs boson.

It's not possible and it's never going to happen.

I'm glad my sci-fi isn't full of completely slowed technology based on nothing but bs. If it's going to be based on random beliefs, at least call it magic.

So we are discussing attaching bombs to tanks made from a psychically generated material and powered by anti-gravity engines, and the part we find least realistic is that the magnet shouldn't stick to the "solidified warp energy" (to steal a phrase from the Lexicanum)? I mean, they have energy sources that can power weapons that "disrupts solid matter". I think trying to explain this stuff with our current physics understanding is foolhardy whether you are supporting it or against it.

It has been stated before by people far better then I:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

All the Authors of 40k have done is plays the 'Forgotten Technology' card when it came to explaining how their technology functions, a good move when talking about 38,000+ years of development that no one can ever hope to grasp. This allowed the Authors to create a dystopia where people worship technology as if it was magic, but just because it is called 'religion' doesn't stop it actually being technology that formed thanks to scientific discovery. So to state 'at least they call it Magic' is a great disservice to the actual and absolute horror that comes with a universe where religious dogma has replaced Science as the go-to explanation for observable events.

The Warp is the only thing 'magical' about 40k and I bet even that can be explained by science if such was still employed in that universe.

I look at 40K tech as I look at Star Wars tech. It works because of reasons. Or space magic. Or is so advanced it seems like magic. Show someone from 100 years ago a cell phone and they'd call you a witch and burn you. I guess what I'm rambling about is complaining about magnets in the unbelivably far future is pointless. Besides, who ever said that wraithbone isn't magnetic? I mean, if melta bombs work on 'Nids they gotta work on Elfmetal, right?

JinxDragon wrote:
It has been stated before by people far better then I:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

All the Authors of 40k have done is plays the 'Forgotten Technology' card when it came to explaining how their technology functions, a good move when talking about 38,000+ years of development that no one can ever hope to grasp. This allowed the Authors to create a dystopia where people worship technology as if it was magic, but just because it is called 'religion' doesn't stop it actually being technology that formed thanks to scientific discovery. So to state 'at least they call it Magic' is a great disservice to the actual and absolute horror that comes with a universe where religious dogma has replaced Science as the go-to explanation for observable events.

The Warp is the only thing 'magical' about 40k and I bet even that can be explained by science if such was still employed in that universe.

Except that the vast majority of the 40th millenium technology is very close to what we do today.

This allowed the authors to create a pitiful impression of a futuristic world where impossible technology lives along with outdated technology.

But unlike you, they tried to avoid ridiculous things like a Higgs field powered by enough warp energy to guarantee sticking a small grenade on a 120+ Kph tank.

Things that mostly everyone knows are just way beyond the barrier of impossible, unlike magic which could still be discovered some day and have any properties.


In other words, you're not qualified to write sci fi, they did a bad job of it but at least it's a lot better than yours.



For better sci fi, I suggest looking at Frank Herbert, Dan Simons and Isaac Asimov just to name a few.


The vast majority of science fiction is a logical projection of current science, and in general most of the concepts outlined there end up being real science some day.
Some of them end up being impossible but that was not perfectly clear at the time of writing for people with a knowledge of the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I look at 40K tech as I look at Star Wars tech. It works because of reasons. Or space magic. Or is so advanced it seems like magic. Show someone from 100 years ago a cell phone and they'd call you a witch and burn you. I guess what I'm rambling about is complaining about magnets in the unbelivably far future is pointless. Besides, who ever said that wraithbone isn't magnetic? I mean, if melta bombs work on 'Nids they gotta work on Elfmetal, right?

Which part of Star Wars Tech is even remotely as unlikely as a Higgs field grenade ?

Morgoth,
Seeing as this is far off the purpose of this thread, discussing Rules and not science fiction writing, I will make this my last post regardless of reply.

I just wanted to point out that you are claiming that a scientific discovery which may lead to the manipulation of mass itself, when applied in a solution of 'Make this very heavy object light enough that Gravity no longer overcomes friction,' as a ridiculous solution. Not because the insane amounts of energy that may actually require, or some other very real technical limitation of a fictional technology, but because it would make the Grenade heavier....

Your complaint against a technology that makes it so mass does not matter was that it would be to heavy to use....

Then you go ahead and state that 40k has similar technology to today... you must surely know that humans simply choose not to utilize the advanced technology they have discovered through the ages. Humans in this universe choose to never use anything more complicated then a toaster, so if you focused only on them it might seem as if this universe never utilized science to begin with. While this does allow the Authors to create this wonderful distopia, it doesn't actually make the Humans in that universe technologically backwards... those scientific advancements still occurred, the technology created still exists, and that technology must have some explanation for how it works.

That explanation does not need to be 'it's magic' when 'projected application of theoretical physics' work's just as well.

They even have weapons which manipulate mass, and discovering how mass is imposed onto a particle seems to be the very first step one would need to take towards a weapon which does that. Plasma weapons are nothing more then an extension of fusion technology we are experimenting with today, and adding thousands of years so we can work out the kinks. Super Soldiers may be possible of we can master DNA manipulation, we will definitely need it if we are going to put surplus organs into people... and so on.

I will admit that I am bias on this subject... my faction is Tau. This is the most scientific implausible faction, to the point that people speculate that their evolution had to have been altered. In a fraction of the time it should take to become a technologically advanced race, the Tau are easily on par with the stuff humans could have if they simply allowed themselves to with one differences. The Tau faction needs a hell of a lot of 'projected application of theoretical physics' to function as they are warp-null, so none of their technology can utilize the 'magic' of this universe....

Oh, as you stated stated that we may one day discover Magic and it's properties... I think I will take your advise on hypothetical scientific advancements with a grain of salt.

morgoth wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
It has been stated before by people far better then I:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

All the Authors of 40k have done is plays the 'Forgotten Technology' card when it came to explaining how their technology functions, a good move when talking about 38,000+ years of development that no one can ever hope to grasp. This allowed the Authors to create a dystopia where people worship technology as if it was magic, but just because it is called 'religion' doesn't stop it actually being technology that formed thanks to scientific discovery. So to state 'at least they call it Magic' is a great disservice to the actual and absolute horror that comes with a universe where religious dogma has replaced Science as the go-to explanation for observable events.

The Warp is the only thing 'magical' about 40k and I bet even that can be explained by science if such was still employed in that universe.

Except that the vast majority of the 40th millenium technology is very close to what we do today.

This allowed the authors to create a pitiful impression of a futuristic world where impossible technology lives along with outdated technology.

But unlike you, they tried to avoid ridiculous things like a Higgs field powered by enough warp energy to guarantee sticking a small grenade on a 120+ Kph tank.

Things that mostly everyone knows are just way beyond the barrier of impossible, unlike magic which could still be discovered some day and have any properties.


In other words, you're not qualified to write sci fi, they did a bad job of it but at least it's a lot better than yours.



For better sci fi, I suggest looking at Frank Herbert, Dan Simons and Isaac Asimov just to name a few.


The vast majority of science fiction is a logical projection of current science, and in general most of the concepts outlined there end up being real science some day.
Some of them end up being impossible but that was not perfectly clear at the time of writing for people with a knowledge of the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I look at 40K tech as I look at Star Wars tech. It works because of reasons. Or space magic. Or is so advanced it seems like magic. Show someone from 100 years ago a cell phone and they'd call you a witch and burn you. I guess what I'm rambling about is complaining about magnets in the unbelivably far future is pointless. Besides, who ever said that wraithbone isn't magnetic? I mean, if melta bombs work on 'Nids they gotta work on Elfmetal, right?

Which part of Star Wars Tech is even remotely as unlikely as a Higgs field grenade ?

... Warp. Travel.

Are you serious?

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Which part of Star Wars Tech is even remotely as unlikely as a Higgs field grenade ?

... Warp. Travel.

Are you serious?

Yes I am.

Warp Travel or FTL travel or space folding is still a possibility.

A weapon using a Higgs field to generate enough gravity to stick to a moving vehicle while being the size of a grenade is not.

The day we find a way to contain near infinite weightless energy, we'll just vaporize that vehicle instead of trying to transform energy into mass in order to modify the grenade's gravity so that it sticks and maybe explodes dealing maybe enough damage to maybe wreck the vehicle.

As someone looking for a definate answer about the OP. Can everyone who wants to flex their intellectual E-peen about how much useless info they know. Kindly get lost and get the thread back on topic.

JinxDragon wrote:

They even have weapons which manipulate mass, and discovering how mass is imposed onto a particle seems to be the very first step one would need to take towards a weapon which does that. Plasma weapons are nothing more then an extension of fusion technology we are experimenting with today, and adding thousands of years so we can work out the kinks. Super Soldiers may be possible of we can master DNA manipulation, we will definitely need it if we are going to put surplus organs into people... and so on.

I will admit that I am bias on this subject... my faction is Tau. This is the most scientific implausible faction, to the point that people speculate that their evolution had to have been altered. In a fraction of the time it should take to become a technologically advanced race, the Tau are easily on par with the stuff humans could have if they simply allowed themselves to with one differences. The Tau faction needs a hell of a lot of 'projected application of theoretical physics' to function as they are warp-null, so none of their technology can utilize the 'magic' of this universe....

Oh, as you stated stated that we may one day discover Magic and it's properties... I think I will take your advise on hypothetical scientific advancements with a grain of salt.

In case you haven't noticed, we went from dying of the black death to spaceships in a few hundred years.

What makes you think that it could take thousands of years so that we can use weapons that we already have today ?

The "Fusion" we're experimenting with today is already part of a weapon, it's called the H bomb.
The "experimenting part" is turning that into an energy source, a progress that has been made very slow by the lack of investment.

And Plasma weapons ? They're not an extension of it, we can make them today, they're just not efficient enough to justify their use.
They will never be, because for the same energy requirements there are better solutions.
From a military perspective, a plasma is just very hot matter, nothing you can't achieve with pure ballistic weapons really.

DNA manipulation ? I don't think that's public yet. Tinkering with DNA has been possible for quite a while, it's just not ethical to do so which means that anyone doing it would keep it secret.


The Tau may have had a faster evolution than the IoM, but the IoM is so very slow in its evolution that anyone would be faster in comparison.



Lastly, with regards to magic and psychic abilities, the human race has a lot of untapped potential, before any mutations or evolution which are bound to happen - or be provoked.

Something that "looks" like magic could still be created.

 cerbrus2 wrote:
As someone looking for a definate answer about the OP.

There is nothing more to discuss, the question was answered in the first reply - there is no restriction on embarked passengers within the Jink rules, so therefore Jink has no effect on them (illogical though that sounds IRL, it's the RAW).