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Okay, so pretty much everyone agrees that AP2 weaponry is a problem in the game, mainly as there is too much of it.

Not so much of a problem for the likes of AM, but a problem for marines, tau etc.

SO, plasma does indeed crack AP2 armour in the fluff, but as we know, the game doesn't follow the fluff.

So my simple rule proposal to change the AP2 saturation would be, to make it AP3 but also add rending so it doesn't become completely useless at cracking AP2.


Everyone still has meltaguns, grav guns, fusion guns, lascannons etc etc, so there is still lots of AP2/1 to choose froml, just downgrades one of the main AP2 guns out there.

Weight of fire is still going to nuke 2+ save units, but lets make an army lend it's whole weight for a turn to do so, rather than just lending half of it's AP2 weaponry to it.

The problem isn't AP2 alone, the problem is consequence-free template or high rate-of-fire AP2 weapons. Riptides, Exocrines, D-Scythes. Take those away and most of the problems vanish.

I don't mind those too much - providing they aren't spammed, and I don't play people who do spam them - it's just a case of taking out one unit, it's more difficult dealing with those units PLUS every other unit toting quite a bit of AP2 weaponry.

Having an armageddon unit like a riptide to take out on the board is fun for the opponent, it provides a challenge, more than 1 at a decent points value though and I agree.

I agree with AnomanderRake here that the problem is not AP 2 itself, but I feel that the problem stems more from the meta of the game. The most common thing you're going to see on the table now is space marines and equivalent, monstrous creatures, and cheap dedicated transports. All of which plasma to useful against. To the point that there's very little reason to take mass anti-infantry and most lists seem to keep it to a minimal (if not just not bothering with it at all) in favor of taking high strength low ap weapons.

Let me get this straight. Other codex gets to have plasma gun equivalent weapon but none of the, "GETS HOT!"

 Filch wrote:
Let me get this straight. Other codex gets to have plasma gun equivalent weapon but none of the, "GETS HOT!"

And they get them cheaper, with large blasts, and with higher rates of fire.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Let me get this straight. Other codex gets to have plasma gun equivalent weapon but none of the, "GETS HOT!"

And they get them cheaper, with large blasts, and with higher rates of fire.

And at least for Eldar on generally less survivable/shorter range platforms. The more survivable models tend to be shorter ranged (WG) and others rely heavily on cover to survive and limit or lose most of their capability if they have to jink or they die.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I agree with AnomanderRake here that the problem is not AP 2 itself, but I feel that the problem stems more from the meta of the game. The most common thing you're going to see on the table now is space marines and equivalent, monstrous creatures, and cheap dedicated transports. All of which plasma to useful against. To the point that there's very little reason to take mass anti-infantry and most lists seem to keep it to a minimal (if not just not bothering with it at all) in favor of taking high strength low ap weapons.

This. Make marines 10% of the armies (still overrepresented by orders of magnitude compared to their fluff) on average and the plasma problem goes away. But instead, since MEQs are considered the default in 40k, everyone defaults to anti-MEQ weapons.

Well, I don't think that would be necessary (nor is it purely the marines fault. Eldar jetbikes and heavy aspect warriors, tau suits, and most necrons are also popular unit with heavy armor that plasma is useful against, and as I said before monster creatures pretty much require plasma equivalent). I think a better solution would be to make cheaper infantry like Orks and Guard and similar to be more useful and the same for high armored vehicles like land raiders so that people have to migrate to different extremes and make the plasma less as the "do everything" weapon of choice.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I think a better solution would be to make cheaper infantry like Orks and Guard and similar to be more useful

My footslogging orkses are definitely useful. Pretty much solid and sometimes outstanding. Especially in face of all that plasma, melta and gravguns that everyone spams

I agree! Orks are pretty awesome, to the point that I would say they're the only horde army with decent troop choices, but I was more referring to that type of units rather than Orks as a specific army that needs to be more useful. But you do kinda prove my point. There's a worrying lack of anti-infantry in even supposed TAC lists despite the threat of horde armies.

It's a meta thing. Hordes are pretty deadly when run correctly. But the problem is we're not tournament-friendly.
I don't want to sound like a buffon but i'm pretty sure it's more than possible for me to win a local tourney with a greentide considering it's inhabited by Adamantium lance, srp + knight eldar and riptide spam tau.

The main reason as i see it is time-shields that all the local tourneys have introduced lately. It's just impossible to play a quick game with a horde. And even if i win, i'll get a loss cause i've taken up all the time of a 2-3-hour game. I need at least 4-5 hours to more or less reliably finish a game with all the stuff i have on the table. So, that's one of the reasons many tournaments discard hordes as time limit pretty much means an auto-loss for us in this case.

When it's not for the time shields, look at what greentide's capable of at LVO. Or the IG blob of death with Xeno inquisitor, sarges with power axes, melta bombz and a ton of guardsmen with nades and invisibility paired by cheapo conscripts that are fearless and take half the board.

Another common sight is a helcult with 2 big blobs of cultists. They pretty much counter Adamantium lance and some of the less killy deathstars like smashfether or wraithwing rushing the board and disallowing movement for at least half the game. For just a handful of points.


Anywayz, back to plasma. It's more of a meta fault that the gunz are so common. If you make them weaker, how are people without grav weaponry gona reliably deal with something like a NDK? It reminds me of terminators.

Termies are bad cause there's too many ap2. There's so many ap2 cause there are too many MC that require high str low ap to deal with. Don't blame plasma - blame stuff that forces you to take plasma over other weapons.

I only think its fair if plasma gun equivalent weapons are re-written as having, "GETS HOTS!"

You can take it on cheaper units? Most cheap units have bad saves. So getting hot would kill them.

You can take pseudo plasma guns with multiple shots? Well then there are more chances to roll, GETS HOT!

 Filch wrote:
I only think its fair if plasma gun equivalent weapons are re-written as having, "GETS HOTS!"

Here are a few excerpts from Codex Eldar, talking about the Plasma weapons that we, Eldar, never use because they suck balls, even without the "Gets Hot":

Starcannon: 36", S6AP2, Heavy 2

On Guardians for 29 points including shooter.
On Wave Serpents for 5 points instead of Scatter Laser.
On Crimson Hunter instead of bright lances (gives you 4 S6AP2 + 2S8AP2 instead of 2 S8AP2 lance + 2 S8AP2 ....).
On Vypers for 5 points. Arguably the best deal, unfortunately Vypers cost 50 points a piece for AV10 2HP Open Topped.
On Falcons for 5 points instead of a Bright lance for 10 points, which synergizes much better with the Pulse laser (2S8AP2).
On War Walkers for 5 points each. Another fair deal, unfortunately WW are 60 points a piece for AV10 2HP Open Topped.
On WraithLords for 20 points.
On WraithKnights for 20 points instead of a scatter laser with the suncannon.


Suncannon: 48", S6AP2, Heavy 3 Blast

For 40 points, you get 3 Plasma shots instead of 2 S10AP2 shots on an MC designed for CC Vehicle bashing.



Maybe all that safe Plasma in the meta isn't really coming from the Eldar dex

 Filch wrote:
I only think its fair if plasma gun equivalent weapons are re-written as having, "GETS HOTS!"

You can take it on cheaper units? Most cheap units have bad saves. So getting hot would kill them.

You can take pseudo plasma guns with multiple shots? Well then there are more chances to roll, GETS HOT!

The theoretical tradeoff is no-Gets-Hot plasguns have S6 instead of S7.

That said the issue isn't with starcannons or plasma rifles, those are fine, the issue is with the cheap/consequence-free AP2 templates/blasts/good ROF guns. Ion Accelerators, Suncannons, D-Scythes, Exocrines, etc.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I only think its fair if plasma gun equivalent weapons are re-written as having, "GETS HOTS!"

You can take it on cheaper units? Most cheap units have bad saves. So getting hot would kill them.

You can take pseudo plasma guns with multiple shots? Well then there are more chances to roll, GETS HOT!

The theoretical tradeoff is no-Gets-Hot plasguns have S6 instead of S7.

That said the issue isn't with starcannons or plasma rifles, those are fine, the issue is with the cheap/consequence-free AP2 templates/blasts/good ROF guns. Ion Accelerators, Suncannons, D-Scythes, Exocrines, etc.

Suncannons ? Really ? a 40 point upgrade that fires three small blasts instead of two S10AP2 shots on a model that is designed to tear vehicles apart in CC ?

And D-Scythes ? A unit of 5 D-Scythe guys costs 240 points, 380 points with a transport.
The transport has to go very close but can't handle CC (rear AV10).
The unit itself has zero resilience and is thus a one shot five template thing.
It can be mighty impressive but I don't think it can imbalance anything.


I think you're overestimating the effect of Gets Hot, which after all results in a dead model one eighteenth of the time on SM and one ninth on Guard. As in once every three games. I'm pretty sure the worst plasma offenders are IoM, with Gets Hot, and cheap model costs.

The Exocrine... 24" range, very expensive, I doubt it.


The Ion Accelerator ? of course, that thing is so undercosted it's a problem in any discussion about it. Should it have AP2 large blast at that point cost on that chassis ? never. It does come with something similar to Gets Hot with the Nova Reactor (which deals damage twice more often than the Gets Hot and is an integral part of the model).

You're also forgetting that for the Ion Accelerator to fire a large blast it also gains gets hot; so there's a 1/3 (nova reactor) and 1/6 (gets hot) chance of taking a wound.

SGTPozy wrote:
You're also forgetting that for the Ion Accelerator to fire a large blast it also gains gets hot; so there's a 1/3 (nova reactor) and 1/6 (gets hot) chance of taking a wound.

Remember that A) the Ion Accelerator's large blast mode don't require the nova reactor (the nova-charge mode makes it str 9 and ordnance that's also large blast) and B) Get Hot! gets an armor save, so it's more like a 1/36 chance to wound via Gets Hot! (even less with a reroll)

D-scythes are on a T6 unit that you can't assault (since you're taking 5d3 AP2 auto-hits) and thus must shoot, which exacerbates the problem since the best counter to them is long-ranged low-AP blasts. They've got easy access to good delivery tricks (particularly Raiders) on top of that.

Exocrines may be short-ranged and expensive but the Tyranids are spoiled for toys to make it immune to getting shot; without it the Tyranids have to come get you, with it they can sit there until doomsday wrecking anything that dares to try and get close.

It used to be that the only low-AP blasts at all came on Marines that got killed relatively frequently by their own weapon (no armour saves against Gets Hot back then), or tanks that had to stop moving to shoot and were inaccurate, flimsy, or both. Multi-target AP2 has been getting handed out like candy over the past edition solely to make new models more attractive.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
D-scythes are on a T6 unit that you can't assault (since you're taking 5d3 AP2 auto-hits) and thus must shoot, which exacerbates the problem since the best counter to them is long-ranged low-AP blasts. They've got easy access to good delivery tricks (particularly Raiders) on top of that.

Exocrines may be short-ranged and expensive but the Tyranids are spoiled for toys to make it immune to getting shot; without it the Tyranids have to come get you, with it they can sit there until doomsday wrecking anything that dares to try and get close.

It used to be that the only low-AP blasts at all came on Marines that got killed relatively frequently by their own weapon (no armour saves against Gets Hot back then), or tanks that had to stop moving to shoot and were inaccurate, flimsy, or both. Multi-target AP2 has been getting handed out like candy over the past edition solely to make new models more attractive.

D-Scythes are certainly not better than heavy plasma.

240 points before Transport. T6 Sv 3+ No invul, extremely short range and only S4.

For the same price, how many S7AP2 blasts can you bring ?

Exocrines are just not good. I'm pretty sure they're vastly outclassed by any team of heavy plasmas.


The only AP2 I can think of that is way too cheap is Grav Guns and the Ion Accelerator.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
SO, plasma does indeed crack AP2 armour in the fluff, but as we know, the game doesn't follow the fluff.

According to the fluff my terminators should be able to shrug off plasma most of the time, when in reality they die over half the time

I kind of like the idea of plasma being AP3 Rending, but at the same time I feel like you're killing plasma a bit too much there.

I'm personally fine with eldar plasma equivalents, it's usually the tau stuff that bothers me. A squad of crisis suits all carrying two plasmas, that don't get hot, and the issues everyone else has with the riptide.

Tau plasma is S6 and used by BS3 models, whilst your Imperial plasma is +1S, usually always BS4 and gets hot.

It's a fair trade for +1S to get gets hot, just like old Flash Gits could get that.

SGTPozy wrote:
Tau plasma is S6 and used by BS3 models, whilst your Imperial plasma is +1S, usually always BS4 and gets hot.

It's a fair trade for +1 S to get gets hot, just like old Flash Gits could get that.

The extra strength only matters against MCs and tanks, plus tau plasma can ignore cover (yes, I can kill the pathfinders, but I don't have anything to ignore the cover the pathfinders use). Or they can give them BS 5.
Statistically, one of my plasma will kill themself if I run three, and it can happen turn 1. A single turn of plasma, at only a single strength higher, or an entire game of S 6 plasma.

I honestly just want terminators to stand a chance against suits.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
D-scythes are on a T6 unit that you can't assault (since you're taking 5d3 AP2 auto-hits) and thus must shoot, which exacerbates the problem since the best counter to them is long-ranged low-AP blasts. They've got easy access to good delivery tricks (particularly Raiders) on top of that.
.

Can't charge the unit? Here's how you defeat WG with D-scythes once they are out on foot.

Step 1) Take dirt cheap squad of something. (Bare naked tac marines, a couple bikes, whatever)...Charge WG - If they overwatch...accept fatalities as they happen.
Step 2) Take squad you ACTUALLY want to use against Wraith Guard. Charge. Voila. Chances are good you are now in combat, have negated the D-scythes, and are up against 5 S5 AP- Close combat attacks. You now don't have to worry about the D-scythes.

 kingbobbito wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Tau plasma is S6 and used by BS3 models, whilst your Imperial plasma is +1S, usually always BS4 and gets hot.

It's a fair trade for +1 S to get gets hot, just like old Flash Gits could get that.

The extra strength only matters against MCs and tanks, plus tau plasma can ignore cover (yes, I can kill the pathfinders, but I don't have anything to ignore the cover the pathfinders use). Or they can give them BS 5.
Statistically, one of my plasma will kill themself if I run three, and it can happen turn 1. A single turn of plasma, at only a single strength higher, or an entire game of S 6 plasma.

I honestly just want terminators to stand a chance against suits.

...so it does matter then especially since vehicles are so much harder to kill now and MCs are very common (hence why everyone complains about Riptides, Wraithknights and Dreadknights).

How will one of your guys die? It is a 1/6 chance and then a 1/3 chance, so that's not 1in3. Terminators do have a chance, they have a 5++. That's saving the wound 1in3 times, and you should also have a 4+ cover save from ruins too.

SGTPozy wrote:
...so it does matter then especially since vehicles are so much harder to kill now and MCs are very common (hence why everyone complains about Riptides, Wraithknights and Dreadknights).

How will one of your guys die? It is a 1/6 chance and then a 1/3 chance, so that's not 1in3. Terminators do have a chance, they have a 5++. That's saving the wound 1in3 times, and you should also have a 4+ cover save from ruins too.

Ah, but there are usually 6 turns in a game. So one in 6 times 6, followed by 1 in 3. Throw in the chance of rapid fire, and now we're losing even more. So if I run 3, at least 1 should statistically die by the end of the game.

And I'm not saying terminators don't have a chance, I'm saying fluff-wise a terminator squad shouldn't die from a single shot from a riptide or from a volley from suits.

Plasma weapons on cheap models invalidates the majority of power armor lists out there.

And, yes, terminators are a joke in every sense of the word.

Look here, I ran a Chosen list that spammed Plasma guns at the start of 6th ed.

Abaddon-265

Chosen, 4 Plasma guns, rhino-185
Chosen, 4 Plasma guns, rhino-185
Chosen, 4 Plasma guns, rhino-185
Chosen, 4 Plasma guns, rhino-185

total 1005 pts

Turn 1 and 2, if they can shoot anything at 24" A chosen will die from 1 squad from gets hot! 20 guys became 16 in 1 turn of shooting and they havent even gotten shot at. Next turn of shooting, 4 more would die bringing down the body count to 12 guys. It was a self defeating army. It was hilarious as my opponent just captured objectives and then just sat there and won with out having to really shoot. My Chosen had chosen to kill them selves through Gets HOT!

Now, If I had the option to take S6 Ap2 and no getting hot like tau, I would take it!

OP Couldn't agree with you more. AP2 should be as as scarce and special as 2+ armour, not handed out like candy. AP3 rending would be something I'd like to see for plasma. Not least because I've been mad about terminators since 2nd and am annoyed that they've been hamstrung in 5 consecutive editions of the game.

For the PC AP2 is acceptable -it is a cannon after all.

Terminators have never been good, except chaos terminators.