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Subject says it all.

Watched a huge argument break out on this topic over the weekend. A player was looking to have his CSM Fire Raptor land on a skyshield landing pad to turn it into a firing base. Both players were quoting rules about flyers I did not see in the BRB, so I figured it's time to ask.

Does it have hover?

Yes, it does. So I would assume it could land.

BUT... this was a loud argument that went on a long time, so I assume there was some relevant point on both sides.

Maybe the way to ask the question is, are there any restrictions on a Skyshield Landing Pad that would prevent a hovering flyer from landing on it?

In this case, it's safe to assume nothing else is on the skypad, and that the shields can be up or down.

There's no "landing" as such. It may start on it, as per the sslp rules with the upgrade. It may, as a unit, be "on" the pad to gain the invulnerable.

What do you mean by "Land"?

If you're talking about removing the model from its flight base, then NO nothing lets you do that.

If you're tlalking about having it stay stationary on top of it, then Hover is your answer.

There is no restriction on how many things you can place on top, or what setting the shield needs to be on.

What I mean by land is placing the model on top of the landing page while it's in hover mode.

The argument was over whether or not the Fire Raptor would derive any benefit from being placed on the pad, and whether or not it could actually be put there.

One guy was saying yes to both counts, the other player was insisting the Fire Raptor a) could not derive any benefit from being on the pad and b) could not actually be placed there.

Both players were quoting rules I hadn't heard of before, which I assumed were from the stronghold book.

Very unusual argument... even if they where using obsolete Rules there was nothing within Stronghold Assault, that I can recall, which limits what types of Unit is allowed on a Skyshield.
In fact, Stronghold granted the Skyshield a purchasable Option which allows a Flyer with the Hover Rule to start on the Skyshield... quite impossible if limitations such as 'No Hovering Flyers allowed' existed.

Till this person gives you the actual Rulebook so you can quote it to us, assume permission to move across Open Ground extends to the top of the Skyshield... it is penned as Open Ground after all.

Totally legal. Cheap and beneath most players but legal.

 techsoldaten wrote:
What I mean by land is placing the model on top of the landing page while it's in hover mode.

Is everyone here aware that the OP is probably referring to:

"Remove it from its flying stand" type of Landing?

Which, no, is NOT allowed.
When you are in Hover mode, or Landed, you will always stay on your Flight Stand.

You cannot remove your model from the Flight Stand and place it on the Skyshield.

If that was not the point of the Thread, then as the others say above: You can stay in Hover mode over the pad, no rules to restrict that...

I agree with BlackTalos. I feel like OP is asking if it's ok to take the model off the Flight Stand/Base. The answer is NO. This would essentially be a mid game modelling for advantage move.

BlackTalos wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
What I mean by land is placing the model on top of the landing page while it's in hover mode.

Is everyone here aware that the OP is probably referring to:

"Remove it from its flying stand" type of Landing?

Kriswall wrote:I agree with BlackTalos. I feel like OP is asking if it's ok to take the model off the Flight Stand/Base. The answer is NO. This would essentially be a mid game modelling for advantage move.

techsoldaten wrote:What I mean by land is placing the model on top of the landing page while it's in hover mode.

No. He's not referring to that and said as much.
Reading is fun.

rigeld2 wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:What I mean by land is placing the model on top of the landing page while it's in hover mode.

No. He's not referring to that and said as much.
Reading is fun.

Read that, as i actually quoted it too, but it does not clarify enough. Let's wait until OP gets back to us on this...

Well, to be clear, I was a third party to this dispute, but I don't think anyone was trying to take the Fire Raptor off the base.

The question was whether or not the Fire Raptor could be on the Skyshield Landing Pad, on it's base, and whether or not the Fire Raptor got an invulnerable save.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The question was whether or not the Fire Raptor could be on the Skyshield Landing Pad, on it's base, and whether or not the Fire Raptor got an invulnerable save.

Ah okay then, well the answer to the above would be yes and yes. If the Skyshield was "Shielded" while the flyer was hovering, it gets the cover. (it was "Unfurled" when it got on)
If the Skyshield was "Shielded" when the Hovering flyer got onto it, it would have needed a Dangerous terrain test to get on, then would get the cover save.

Disagree with the Dangerous Terrain test part:

Hovering Flyers are treated as Fast Skimmers and Skimmers ignore Difficult and Dangerous Terrain with the exception of terrain they start or end their move in.
So the Hovering Flyer Count as having Moved through Difficult Terrain when it ends the move on top of the shield... but it ignores the test outright because it started and ended it's Move on Open Terrain, not Difficult.

JinxDragon wrote:
Disagree with the Dangerous Terrain test part:

Hovering Flyers are treated as Fast Skimmers
Skimmers ignore all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous Terrain tests

Not when moving into or out of difficult, dangerous or impassable terrain.

Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous Terrain tests . However, if a moving Skimmer starts or ends its move in difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. A Skimmer can even end its move over impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the model on top of it, but if it does so it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.

If the shield on the Landing Pad is up then it counts as difficult terrain and so any skimmer moving onto or off of it would have to take a test.

Terrain Type: Unusual. The top surface of the Skyshield Landing Pad is open ground. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain.
- Sky-shiled

The Skyshield's count as Difficult Terrain clause does not state the Model is starting, or ending in, Difficult Terrain but that it counts as having moved through Difficult Terrain as part of the Move.
Skimmers, and therefore Hovering Flyers, ignore all difficult terrain tests but will have to make a Dangerous Terrain test if it starts or ends it's move in Difficult Terrain... lucky this clause mentions nothing about changing the Open Ground Terrain Type or counting it as something other then Open Ground.

I find it interesting the Skimmer Rule states thus, Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous Terrain tests as it makes it possible for me to argue that Skimmers ignore the negative results (penalties) from the test it makes when starting or ending it's move as well. It is very poor Rule writing when you grant permission to ignore not the requirement to make the test but the results of the test, right before giving us situations where additional tests will be required.

It is a side point to the topic on hand though, because the Rule clearly grants Skimmers immunity to these tests even if the exception clause is badly written.

JinxDragon wrote:
Terrain Type: Unusual. The top surface of the Skyshield Landing Pad is open ground. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain.
- Sky-shiled

The Skyshield's count as Difficult Terrain clause does not state the Model is starting, or ending in, Difficult Terrain but that it counts as having moved through Difficult Terrain as part of the Move.
Skimmers, and therefore Hovering Flyers, ignore all difficult terrain tests but will have to make a Dangerous Terrain test if it starts or ends it's move in Difficult Terrain... lucky this clause mentions nothing about changing the Open Ground Terrain Type or counting it as something other then Open Ground.

So you're saying that this rule (bolded relevant section):

Unfurled: If a unit deep strikes on top of an unfurled Skyshield Landing Pad, it will never scatter. Jump units, Jet Pack units, Jetbikes and Skimmers do not need to take Dangerous Terrain tests for moving on to or off of an unfurled Skyshield Landing Pad.

is completely pointless.

Well the fact you can land a transport on a landing pad WITHOUT BASE to disembark passengers suggests that such a thing is possible.
Seriously why is this a problem if he lands it yes you could have a tech priest repair it or something else like that, and yes there is the 4+.
But at the same time the other player can assault it and shoot with out snap shots.

JinxDragon wrote:
Terrain Type: Unusual. The top surface of the Skyshield Landing Pad is open ground. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain.
- Sky-shiled

The Skyshield's count as Difficult Terrain clause does not state the Model is starting, or ending in, Difficult Terrain but that it counts as having moved through Difficult Terrain as part of the Move.
Skimmers, and therefore Hovering Flyers, ignore all difficult terrain tests but will have to make a Dangerous Terrain test if it starts or ends it's move in Difficult Terrain... lucky this clause mentions nothing about changing the Open Ground Terrain Type or counting it as something other then Open Ground.

"Jump units, Jet Pack units, Jetbikes and Skimmers do not need to take Dangerous Terrain tests for moving on to or off of an unfurled Skyshield Landing Pad."

The rule somehow seems to imply that "To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain." (no restriction to Jump units, Jet Pack units, Jetbikes only - Skimmers too)

What would a skimmer do if it moved through Difficult Terrain? (Because it did not decide to "can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain")

Sorry if the roundabout "leading you to the conclusion" comes across as obnoxious...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Well the fact you can land a transport on a landing pad WITHOUT BASE to disembark passengers suggests that such a thing is possible.

The underlined is completely incorrect, or have you got some rules to support that claim?

If a Rule has to imply something, instead of the Rules out right stating it, then it is an indication of a problem in the way the Rule was Written.

From my current reading of the Rules, the Unfurled Clause does absolutely nothing for Skimmers, or likely most of the Unit types listed, as it addresses something Skimmers already have immunity to in the first place. A Rule stating they ignore the Results of all Dangerous and Difficult Terrain tests is pretty far stretching and the very reason I hate the wording used. It also creates problems for the concept that the 'Over' Clause was designed to ignore the tests entirely, as in we skip this terrain so we do nothing with it, because the inclusion of the word Results. Without a test there is no Result to ignore, so the Rule can only be applied to situations where we have a Result to apply it to. Moving 'over' Terrain, by the Rules, has to be identical to moving through it with tests and all, just ignoring the Results. Vertical Movement Rules, again a butchered hack-and-paste job, ensure we have to do it that way or else bad things happen for the Skimmer player.

However, I do see where you are leading with your question and it is a nice argument.

That the 'can move over' is a choice, and not just fluff explaining why we are ignoring the results, has a few problems but I am not entirely sure how to handle it without more review. I see some obvious problems with the wording involved in the Rules, but I still am not getting ready for work like I really should be so I can't formulate the best way to state what I am seeing right now. This is going to be another one of those deep Rule interactions, three or more, and the long and short of it is simple: the Authors intent is pretty damn obvious....

Going to still need some time to process these thoughts and interactions, but do not ignore the results for the Skyshield and if needed.... Rewrite the terrain type to difficult and add exception to both modes, one allowing units on it to move freely, and one allowing units to move freely while the 'skimmer types' also treat it as open ground.

I think the argument could be shortened to this:

The rule "counts as moving through difficult terrain" is forcing you to move through terrain, so how can you evoke a rule that allows you to "move over" it.

You can use the Skimmer/Jump/Jet rule to avoid a piece of terrain, but the Skyshield is defining (your entire move) as being "through" terrain.

Ok lets step back for a moment and regard the situation you are saying that a flyer cant land on a landing pad specially designed for landing flyers on wtf?

Right call me nube invoking the most important rule 1-3 no land 4-6 can land first result 5
second result 2
third result 4
forth result 6
fifth result 5
And their you have it you can land flyers on a landing pad designed for said purpose!

This sounds like the argument I was asking about.

BlackTalos,
You don't avoid the terrain entirely by evoking this rule, but avoid the penalties which occur when a Difficult or Dangerous Terrain test is failed.

If your conclusion requires the terrain itself to be ignored completely then we have encountered a problem, as the Rule does not mention anything about ignoring the terrain entirely. Doing so would render the rest of the Clause as pointless, in fact, given that it directly relates to a penalty that now has a zero percent chance of ever occurring. This does inform me that the 'Over' has to generate the same tests as 'through,' it has to for all the penalties to be ignored.

The core of your argument is based on something entirely different, removal of the over clause entirely, so the above can be taken into account without too much trouble but please do make those change to your conclusion...
The Author Intent is very clear as well, so there is that.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Ok lets step back for a moment and regard the situation you are saying that a flyer cant land on a landing pad specially designed for landing flyers on wtf?

Right call me nube invoking the most important rule 1-3 no land 4-6 can land first result 5
second result 2
third result 4
forth result 6
fifth result 5
And their you have it you can land flyers on a landing pad designed for said purpose!

No one in the thread has said that.
But you're not allowed to remove the Flyer from its base and put it on the pad.

Sounds like a like a lot of butt hurt to me.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Ok lets step back for a moment and regard the situation you are saying that a flyer cant land on a landing pad specially designed for landing flyers on wtf?

Right call me nube invoking the most important rule 1-3 no land 4-6 can land first result 5
second result 2
third result 4
forth result 6
fifth result 5
And their you have it you can land flyers on a landing pad designed for said purpose!

As Rigeld says, the Flyer can indeed land (Hover) on the Landing Pad, we never said it could not.

What you CANNOT do is remove the Flyer from its flight stand.

Also, you are breaking Forum Rules: YMDC does not allow invoking the most important rule, sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
BlackTalos,
You don't avoid the terrain entirely by evoking this rule, but avoid the penalties which occur when a Difficult or Dangerous Terrain test is failed.

If your conclusion requires the terrain itself to be ignored completely then we have encountered a problem, as the Rule does not mention anything about ignoring the terrain entirely. Doing so would render the rest of the Clause as pointless, in fact, given that it directly relates to a penalty that now has a zero percent chance of ever occurring. This does inform me that the 'Over' has to generate the same tests as 'through,' it has to for all the penalties to be ignored.

The core of your argument is based on something entirely different, removal of the over clause entirely, so the above can be taken into account without too much trouble but please do make those change to your conclusion...
The Author Intent is very clear as well, so there is that.

I think you have me completely confused there...?

The BRB defines Skimmers by being able to "move over" terrain between Start and End point, with any ingression (either start or end) into Terrain causing a Dangerous terrain test.

The landing pad "counts as moving through difficult terrain" will cover the entire of your move (start and end too) as "counting as" to force you to take a Dangerous terrain test.

Now trying to address your post because i really did not understand it:
When you measure a Skimmer's move, you measure from A to B and "ignore" any Terrain along that line. You just check if A is Terrain, or if B is Terrain (they mention if B is Impassable, too), in which case you get a Dangerous terrain test. The pad forces that entire clause (replaces) to be difficult Terrain > Test for Dangerous

BlackTalos,
If only the Rules told us to measure from A to B and simply ignore terrain along the line... but it tells us something completely different:
Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous Terrain tests . However, if a moving Skimmer starts or ends its move in difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. A Skimmer can even end its move over impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the model on top of it, but if it does so it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
- Moving Skimmers

If you are not using the above Rule to 'move over terrain' then please post the one I have over looked.

If we ignore the terrain along the line, bar those under the End and Start Point, and only have the above to go on:
Why grant permission to ignore all penalties?
... Only penalties created by terrain being landed in, or departed from, generate penalties and we want those.
... What does it mean by penalties, given vehicles ignore difficult terrain's penalties entirely it is hard to be the 'slowing' from moving through terrain
... Why specifically mention Dangerous Terrain test penalties, given that the slow is a trait from them also being difficult as well?
... Permission to ignore all Penalties is fair reaching, wouldn't landing in terrain that generates these penalties still be part of all?
Why mention the Dangerous Terrain test for starting / ending in terrain?
... If we are not ignoring the terrain being landed in, departed from, then the Rules already generate a Dangerous Terrain test.

As for the whole concept of them being 'replaced' by the Sky-shield Rule:
I mentioned earlier that I consider it to be a decent argument and enough to support the obvious intent if we don't focus on it too closely.

There are issues with it but I am not going to go into depths as to why as I do not have the ability to dedicate time or research to this forum any more. The reasons as to why are irreverent to the purpose of said forum, so I will leave them unsaid and continue to lurk and post at work occasionally (where I don't have the books handy.) The above Rule is badly written, however, and I do feel that needs to be said as so many people misplay the game because... well it is far better to ignore intervening terrain entirely. Sadly, ignoring penalties means the tests which create them still happen, and that permission to ignore all penalties exists for all situations. There are two exceptions written into the Rule, and neither of them trigger simply by having moved 'through' terrain as they are directly related to having ended in it.

Personally:
I like the 'ignore all terrain with the exception of terrain the Model begins or ends it's move in' concept far better as it is a lot more smoother then the above's ambitious 'ignore penalties.'
I also think we should make the top of the Skyshield Difficult Terrain by default, the exception is easily tweaked to grant 'count as Open Ground' when unfurled and vola....

I see what you mean, and i understand the method.

The skimmer IS moving through Terrain, generating penalties that the Skimmer rule then make you ignore.
Countering, by RaW logic, the whole "you fly over and measure A to B".

It makes the concept a bit more complex, even if more correct. But it still seems to me, as you says, that the Skyshield ruling still covers this, with the "counts as moving through".

Granted, the wording could imply that the start and end might not be Terrain, that only the "through" part is, but logically (IMHO), "counts as moving through difficult terrain" would cover the entire move, and therefore cause a Dangerous test for Skimmers (and the others).
Which is then reinforced by the Unfurled statement.