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Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

An enemy uniit consists of a single 1W character. It receives simultaneous wounds from Fabius Bile, a Cultist Champion and five Cultists, failing all of it's saves. Who, if anyone, gets a Boon?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 01:23:59


   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Fabius Bile and the Chaos Cultists do not share weapons, so they create Wound Pools at different times.
The Cultists do not have the Choas Boon Special Rule attached to their attacks, so they create a different Pool to the Champion's.

Allocate these Pools carefully....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 01:41:40


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Yes, but if they either all fired together, or they had been modified to have the same I and were not forbidden from throwing punches at the character, they could make hits at the same step.

The codex clarifies a similar situation in which there is a single champion of chaos, but I'm wondering what happens if, say, a dozen Chaos Lords with Plasma Pistols attached to a unit with a Champion find Sgt Piñata standing in a clearing on his own. Is it Boons all round?

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

The controlling player decides the order in which they fired, if they fired during his turn.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

It doesn't matter when the Hits occur, for the order in which the Wounds are Allocated is the important factor.

This is because Rules are always resolved sequentially, even if they are occurring at a simultaneous point in the timeline. As each Wound is Resolved individually, we will encounter a situation where a single successful Wound will 'kill' a 1 Wound Model. After that point no more Wounds can be Allocated to the Model, so it is no longer possible for any other 'Fired Shot' to inflict damage to the target to trigger multiple occurrences of this Wound. Models with a Wound Characteristic greater then 1 could be hit by two shots with the Rule from the same Wound Pool, but Rules exist to grant both attackers a Boon in that situation.

That being said, you did touch on a way to make it a possible outcome:
Identical Models.

By having two identically equipped Chaos Lords one can ensure the values on the Wounds are also identical. As Wounds are Pooled based on having identical Values, it would leaves us with a single Wound Pool to allocate from and no real way to know which attack came from which Model. The only advise we can give in that situation would be to use different colored dice or some other method to trace which attacks originate from which Models. While technically not a Rules as Written requirement, it does make it possible to ensure this Special Rule is applied only to the Models which actually attacked the enemy (Character.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/27 16:53:14


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Doesn't the rule cover this? I could have sworn there was something about Chaos Boons and multiple wounds dealt at once.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

HappyJew,
Not at home so going from memory of what I looked at this morning.
It is true that there is a sentence informing us what to do if multiple Wounds are Allocated Simultaneously to a Model but can not be applied to this situation for two main reasons.

The more obvious is the fact the Opening Poster limited the scenario to a 1 Wound Model, so it will be Removed as a Casualty the moment it fails the first Saving Throw. As the Rule in question relates to multiple Wounds, and I can not remember if the exact formatting uses the word Suffers, Allocate, or Unsaved, it can only be triggered in situations where a Model has multiple Wounds. Being unable to Allocate additional Wounds to the Model after it is Removed as a Casualty will ensure that it only ever has one unsaved Wound allocated to it.

The second, less obvious, is the ridiculous use of the word simultaneous within the sentence. Because we Resolve these wounds in a Sequential format by default, the only way to ever have multiple Wounds allocated 'simultaneously' will require the involvement of Advanced Rules changing the Wounding process. It is unlikely for this to occur, however, as it would require Wounds to be Allocated to a Model which has already been Removed as a Casualty. Even the obvious Weapons which have access to Rules which allow multiple Wounds off a single 'Hit,' as Simultaneous as we can get in the Rules, all encounter this issue... once we Resolve the first 'Hit' we no longer have a Model left to Resolve against.

I can not fathom a situation where this Rule will be evoked... aside from two Models with identical Profiles and Wargear, both wielding the Chaos Boon Special Rule, Wounding an Enemy with a greater-then-1 Wound Characteristic.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 19:08:36


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

JinxDragon's got it! I neglected to cross-reference the exact rules for wound allocation. I'm still used to fast rolling where you roll a load of green dice for plasma and white dice for bolters and then take all saves at once for your loner target.

Regarding the 'Identical Models' route to play 'hide the pea' with the identity of the firer of the lethal shot: is (1) that specific route even necessary to cause confusion, and (2) does it matter?

The rules require you roll to hit with all weapons of the same type. If Kharn the Betrayer, an unnamed Slaaneshi Sorcerer, an unnamed Warpsmith and an unnamed Champion all have a PP, aren't they all shooting in the same step and (assuming no misses) throwing an identical S7 AP2 hit into the wound pool?

This could get equally tricky with a squad of Havocs and Terminators, where it's quite possible for a Champion to add two shots to a bucket of identical S7 AP2.

My gut feeling is that the best resolution would be a correction to the Boon rules, to the effect of: if a Champion of Chaos contributes to a Pool of Wounds, a Boon is awarded if the player announces that a Wound is the one the Champion inflicted as the Wound is allocated and the Wound then kills the enemy Character; the number of Wounds declared for a Champion cannot exceed the number of Wounds they contributed to the Pool.

In lieu of such a RAW clarification, it seems that this common sense approach is the best way to keep track of things and keep the game running. RAI-wise, it seems reasonably fair to assume that a Champion of Chaos, when ordering his squad to fire on a squad of do-gooders, will stay his own combi-plasma until his comrades have cut down for him a clear shot at the nauseatingly clean-armoured Sgt Piñata.

It perhaps gives Chaos units with little weapon variance a slight advantage, but I don't have a problem with that; one can imagine them having a better weapons drill than a unit with lots of different ballistic properties.

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

To begin I would like to clarify why I hate the Shooting Sequence, the constant name change to the 'Shot' as it passes through each Step!

As each Wound Pool, generated at the To Wound step, is separated based on Special Rules one has to keep track of each one that is in play throughout the shooting sequence. That one clause of Wound Allocation ensures that two identically named Weapons fired by different Models will rarely cause the conflict you are describing. Take for example the Havocs and the Terminators, aside from never being in the same Unit together by default, only the champions in each of these Units will have to worry because the other shots all lack the 'Champion of Choas' Special Rule. In situations where multiple Independent Characters are joined together there are other values that might be different on the shot and require us to keep track of them individually... even different Ballistic Skills on the Models.

In those situations, if you have used a different coloured die for each of the champions, we can still keep track of each Model is using which version of the Special Rule to ensure the right Model gets the correct Boon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 02:34:54


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Wee update: it seems if identically named weapons have various special rules, you put them in different wound pools and have to allocate entire pools. So, in a unit of Chaos Terminators with Combi-plasmas, allocating one squaddie's shot means you have to allocate them all before the champion's shot gets to be allocated.

   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh






Dallas, TX

I pretty much don't bother with trying to figure out boon rolls from the shooting phase unless it's very obvious. I also make my champion the grenade-thrower whenever I can so that he's using a different weapon and goes into a different pool.

Avoid confusion. Get into combat and issue a challenge!

40k Armies I play:


Glory for Slaanesh!

 
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




United States

Fabius is I4 and Cultist I3. The saves would have been allocated at a different time.

"Look upon me and know that I can slay you at will. You have no defence save one: to look into the darkness at the back of your own mind. There, you will find Father Nurgle waiting to offer you life in return for your submission. Deny him, and you are mine." — Typhus the Traveller, Herald of Nurgle

9,500-CSM
3,500-GK
Cryx
Trollbloods
Neverborn
 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Son of aY3ti wrote:
Fabius is I4 and Cultist I3. The saves would have been allocated at a different time.


Let's just assume a psychic power is in play enabling the rule mechanic in question to be discussed without having to fine-tune the hypothetical.

   
 
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