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I remember older books had units with restrictions like "0-2", would this fix the current game?

For example, putting 0-1 restrictions on anything ending in the word "Knight" or "Tide"?

it seems these powerful units (wraithknight, riptide) were playtested by GW in the theory that players would only bring 1 of them and diversify their army. obviously, this isn't the case.

you could get more with additional detachments, but then you'd be paying the troop and HQ tax for it.

I remember when rare units were represented as rare (got to be a templar to have multiple crusaders, for example) but now it's more like "Sir, I'd like to requisition 3 more riptides", "I see you have 20 more fire warriors, this seems adequate.".

so would 40k be improved by instigating limits on the amounts of the powerful models you can bring?

Nope, gw play tested these knights and tides as, "its so good people will pay top dollars to spam these! We will make millions $!"

Short answer: No, but army comp restrictions aren't a bad idea for trying to keep a more casual environment that way (if you define them better, if you put 0-1 on my Black Knights I'm going home)

Longer answer: The inherent problems with 40k are those that result in the broken models in the first place, namely the all-or-nothing aspect of the numerical system (a 2+ save is either useless or godly, nothing in between, so it's nigh-impossible to accurately price) and the long ranges compared to the board size (when you can hit the entire table with everything every turn there's no manoeuvre and the game becomes one of who brought the coolest stuff and picked targets best). Neither are simple fixes.

I'm all for such restrictions, but I don't think it would fix the game entirely. There are still some balance issues out there that make some units unusable and others obvious choices, but preventing spam cuts down on the impact of this a lot. If you haven't already, you might try playing a few highlander games. If you're not familiar with the term, highlander is essentially where you can't take more than one of a given type of unit until you've taken at least one of every other unit in that slot. for instance, a necron player wouldn't be able to take a second squad of warriors until he'd also taken a squad of immortals.

One issue with restricting units that I see is that there will be debates on what needs to be restricted and how heavily. Should a unit be 0-1? 0-2? What if some people disagree that it's as potent as you think? What if it's only abusable when used in a certain type of list?

And then there's the issue that some armies might become (virtually) unplayable. You wanted to use an Iron Knights-themed list? Sorry. No cigar. You don't want to play footdar? You should have thought of that before you bought a codex with heavily-restricted transports.

Anyone want to bet that Wraithknights become Lords of War?

 DarkLink wrote:
Anyone want to bet that Wraithknights become Lords of War?

This is my preferred recommendation on a lot of the Super-MCs (sounds like a rap group) and Imperial Knights (instead of them having a unique detachment ). However, there are a few other units (ie the Wave Serpent) who have pushed the power curve that it makes little sense to apply quantitative restrictions to. Also, making a Riptide a Lord of War doesn't stop the spam, it just makes it more expensive as you have to add an HQ and 2 troops each time (or just add a Firebase Support Cadre to include your Broadsides) .

The better fix is to deal with it on the stats level.

I really like that idea of the highlander style game as a rule between friends. It would definitely make for a more varied game since you'd pretty much have to select a wide variety of different units rather than just spam the best ones. That said, you'd probably also have to limit your army to one (or two, in 3000+ point games) codex in order for that rule to really have much teeth to it.

 Neorealist wrote:
I really like that idea of the highlander style game as a rule between friends. It would definitely make for a more varied game since you'd pretty much have to select a wide variety of different units rather than just spam the best ones. That said, you'd probably also have to limit your army to one (or two, in 3000+ point games) codex in order for that rule to really have much teeth to it.

The problem with this is Codexes with good internal balance (Tau, say) are a lot better off than Codexes with ass internal balance (Tyranids).

You complain about "broken" units only because you refuse to open your codex to find solutions to beat the "broken" units. Stop playing the way you want to play, and start playing the way that you need to to kill the units.

Eldar WraithKnights can be killed by

-Psychic Shriek (3d6 Leadership test)
-Mindshackle Scarabs (3d6 Leadership test)
-Grav Guns
-Lascannons
-Meltas
-Any rending close combat squad
-Any Deathstar with Power Fists
-Blob Squad to tie it up the whole game
-Many other ways that im not typing due to energy expended.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Anyone want to bet that Wraithknights become Lords of War?

This is my preferred recommendation on a lot of the Super-MCs (sounds like a rap group) and Imperial Knights (instead of them having a unique detachment ). However, there are a few other units (ie the Wave Serpent) who have pushed the power curve that it makes little sense to apply quantitative restrictions to. Also, making a Riptide a Lord of War doesn't stop the spam, it just makes it more expensive as you have to add an HQ and 2 troops each time (or just add a Firebase Support Cadre to include your Broadsides) .

The better fix is to deal with it on the stats level.

4 Str 6 shots , 3.5 Str 7 Shots....OMyGod

Bring a list that isnt bad or learn to get your army in close combat. Hitting on 3's and penetrating rear armor with grenades or anything else really isnt that difficult.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
You complain about "broken" units only because you refuse to open your codex to find solutions to beat the "broken" units. Stop playing the way you want to play, and start playing the way that you need to to kill the units.

Eldar WraithKnights can be killed by

-Psychic Shriek (3d6 Leadership test)
-Mindshackle Scarabs (3d6 Leadership test)
-Grav Guns
-Lascannons
-Meltas
-Any rending close combat squad
-Any Deathstar with Power Fists
-Blob Squad to tie it up the whole game
-Many other ways that im not typing due to energy expended.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Anyone want to bet that Wraithknights become Lords of War?

This is my preferred recommendation on a lot of the Super-MCs (sounds like a rap group) and Imperial Knights (instead of them having a unique detachment ). However, there are a few other units (ie the Wave Serpent) who have pushed the power curve that it makes little sense to apply quantitative restrictions to. Also, making a Riptide a Lord of War doesn't stop the spam, it just makes it more expensive as you have to add an HQ and 2 troops each time (or just add a Firebase Support Cadre to include your Broadsides) .

The better fix is to deal with it on the stats level.

4 Str 6 shots , 3.5 Str 7 Shots....OMyGod

Bring a list that isnt bad or learn to get your army in close combat. Hitting on 3's and penetrating rear armor with grenades or anything else really isnt that difficult.

Bring literally any ID in combat and you can remove it from play in one hit. Personal favorite is a nurgle prince with balesword, but a force weapon will do the trick nicely as well. There's ways around these "OP" units, and you have to alter tactics to bring them down.

 Robisagg wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
You complain about "broken" units only because you refuse to open your codex to find solutions to beat the "broken" units. Stop playing the way you want to play, and start playing the way that you need to to kill the units.

Eldar WraithKnights can be killed by

-Psychic Shriek (3d6 Leadership test)
-Mindshackle Scarabs (3d6 Leadership test)
-Grav Guns
-Lascannons
-Meltas
-Any rending close combat squad
-Any Deathstar with Power Fists
-Blob Squad to tie it up the whole game
-Many other ways that im not typing due to energy expended.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Anyone want to bet that Wraithknights become Lords of War?

This is my preferred recommendation on a lot of the Super-MCs (sounds like a rap group) and Imperial Knights (instead of them having a unique detachment ). However, there are a few other units (ie the Wave Serpent) who have pushed the power curve that it makes little sense to apply quantitative restrictions to. Also, making a Riptide a Lord of War doesn't stop the spam, it just makes it more expensive as you have to add an HQ and 2 troops each time (or just add a Firebase Support Cadre to include your Broadsides) .

The better fix is to deal with it on the stats level.

4 Str 6 shots , 3.5 Str 7 Shots....OMyGod

Bring a list that isnt bad or learn to get your army in close combat. Hitting on 3's and penetrating rear armor with grenades or anything else really isnt that difficult.

Bring literally any ID in combat and you can remove it from play in one hit. Personal favorite is a nurgle prince with balesword, but a force weapon will do the trick nicely as well. There's ways around these "OP" units, and you have to alter tactics to bring them down.

I like u

But GW's going in the opposite direction, obviously.

BTW how would you hardcap a serp spam?

I really don't think serpent spam is a problem that can be effectively fixed with a hard limit cap. It's the only dedicated eldar transport, and many units that can take one don't work very well without one.

The solution to serpent spam is to fix the serpent shield and/or have more options for dedicated transports.

 koooaei wrote:
But GW's going in the opposite direction, obviously.

BTW how would you hardcap a serp spam?

The FW SM tank that has six autocannon shots that ignore jink on a body to well-armoured for a Wave Serpent to fight effectively, probably.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With changes to the Eldar Codex my favourite idea is make it so the tank can't jink the turn after it fires the shield, it's supposed to be a tradeoff between offensive potential and defensive potential but right now it's not much of a tradeoff.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But GW's going in the opposite direction, obviously.

BTW how would you hardcap a serp spam?

The FW SM tank that has six autocannon shots that ignore jink on a body to well-armoured for a Wave Serpent to fight effectively, probably.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With changes to the Eldar Codex my favourite idea is make it so the tank can't jink the turn after it fires the shield, it's supposed to be a tradeoff between offensive potential and defensive potential but right now it's not much of a tradeoff.

Eh. Not being able to jink because you fired the shield doesn't make much sense to me. Shooting the shield is basically just firing another weapon. Why would jinking make it impossible to shoot the shield while lances and lasers can still fire as snapshots? Honestly, I'm not sure most eldar players really even want a super dakka shield on their sepents. I think a lot of us would rather see the serpent become an assault transport than have an over the top gun everyone complains about. I'd also be fine with the serpent shield losing its shooting profile entirely for a points decrease, though that would make dealing with flyers much more difficult for eldar.

The Serpent Shield should just make it an assault vehicle, and maybe treat the passengers as having assault grenades much like the launchers on that one land raider whose name I don't(can't because it is marine junk) remember the name of.

Smitty0305 wrote:
I like u

But seriously, given the proper application of tactics, everything is killable.

megatrons2nd wrote:The Serpent Shield should just make it an assault vehicle, and maybe treat the passengers as having assault grenades much like the launchers on that one land raider whose name I don't(can't because it is marine junk) remember the name of.

The crusader (and maybe the redeemer? I don't deal with corpse worshipping equipment haha) have frag assault launchers, which give it the assault grenades rule. I think that'd be fair.

I still think the wave serpent shenanigans were supposed to be 6" (which would be pretty reasonable, and fluffy as a defensive anti-cc countermeasure), and someone typoed it to 60". Problem is they sold so many serpents they just rolled with it.

@Robisagg.
Can you please list the tactics you use in 40k.

Not strategic choices, eg 'these units to take on those units'.But tactical options any army can use to over come challenges.

 Robisagg wrote:

But seriously, given the proper application of tactics, everything is killable.

That's why double tran ctans/warhound titans win tourneys when allowed. Others just lack...tactix, obviously.

Lanrak wrote:@Robisagg.
Can you please list the tactics you use in 40k.

Not strategic choices, eg 'these units to take on those units'.But tactical options any army can use to over come challenges.

Obviously it's situationally dependant, but playing objectives, and using LoS blocking terrain is a good start.

koooaei wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:

But seriously, given the proper application of tactics, everything is killable.

That's why double tran ctans/warhound titans win tourneys when allowed. Others just lack...tactix, obviously.

I will have to concede you that point. Superheavies (short of stuff like baneblades/knights, those I haven't had too much trouble with) can be a REALLY uphill battle if caught unaware.

No, because there are ways to deal with things like Riptides and Wraithknights. For my daemons, Balesword DPs are the answer.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
You complain about "broken" units only because you refuse to open your codex to find solutions to beat the "broken" units. Stop playing the way you want to play, and start playing the way that you need to to kill the units.

Eldar WraithKnights can be killed by

-Psychic Shriek (3d6 Leadership test)
-Mindshackle Scarabs (3d6 Leadership test)
-Grav Guns
-Lascannons
-Meltas
-Any rending close combat squad
-Any Deathstar with Power Fists
-Blob Squad to tie it up the whole game
-Many other ways that im not typing due to energy expended.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Anyone want to bet that Wraithknights become Lords of War?

This is my preferred recommendation on a lot of the Super-MCs (sounds like a rap group) and Imperial Knights (instead of them having a unique detachment ). However, there are a few other units (ie the Wave Serpent) who have pushed the power curve that it makes little sense to apply quantitative restrictions to. Also, making a Riptide a Lord of War doesn't stop the spam, it just makes it more expensive as you have to add an HQ and 2 troops each time (or just add a Firebase Support Cadre to include your Broadsides) .

The better fix is to deal with it on the stats level.

4 Str 6 shots , 3.5 Str 7 Shots....OMyGod

Bring a list that isnt bad or learn to get your army in close combat. Hitting on 3's and penetrating rear armor with grenades or anything else really isnt that difficult.

I think you ment 4.5 str 7....ignore covers....60 inch range - at 36 inch will gain twinlinked and ad 4 more str 6 to it's volley. OH MY GOD is right...compare to a double twin auto dread...same armor (though the dread is def less durable at range at least).
It conceeds range, bulk of fire, usefulness of fire, transport capacity, and mobility - for what? To hit at str 6 is CC with 2 attacks and being about 15 points cheaper? Give me a break - wave-serpents are indefensible at this point. Probably the biggest hole in balance I've ever seen through 4 editions of 40k.

Get into CC with a fast skimmer? Okay....Obviously that is the easiest way to kill them...it's also the hardest way to kill them because they are a ranged unit that moves faster than pretty much everything.

 IngenuityGap wrote:
No, because there are ways to deal with things like Riptides and Wraithknights. For my daemons, Balesword DPs are the answer.

Can't ignore I8 Posion 4+ AP2 ID weapons, that's for sure. These guys are the workhorses of my daemonarmy.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But GW's going in the opposite direction, obviously.

BTW how would you hardcap a serp spam?

With changes to the Eldar Codex my favourite idea is make it so the tank can't jink the turn after it fires the shield, it's supposed to be a tradeoff between offensive potential and defensive potential but right now it's not much of a tradeoff.

Yes!
Man, that idea is as full of win as your profile pic and username
(you know there's a guy out there with a techmagos called Iskaral Pust? here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/566116.page
Somehow, I think the name suits a techmagos, maybe with slightly damaged circuits)

 Robisagg wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:
I like u

But seriously, given the proper application of tactics, everything is killable.

megatrons2nd wrote:The Serpent Shield should just make it an assault vehicle, and maybe treat the passengers as having assault grenades much like the launchers on that one land raider whose name I don't(can't because it is marine junk) remember the name of.

The crusader (and maybe the redeemer? I don't deal with corpse worshipping equipment haha) have frag assault launchers, which give it the assault grenades rule. I think that'd be fair.

I still think the wave serpent shenanigans were supposed to be 6" (which would be pretty reasonable, and fluffy as a defensive anti-cc countermeasure), and someone typoed it to 60". Problem is they sold so many serpents they just rolled with it.

I think so too. I hate that person because he must have been given a raise for selling so many wave serpents.

Play highlander

Make it popular in your local

 Smitty0305 wrote:
You complain about "broken" units only because you refuse to open your codex to find solutions to beat the "broken" units. Stop playing the way you want to play, and start playing the way that you need to to kill the units.

Eldar WraithKnights can be killed by

-Psychic Shriek (3d6 Leadership test)
-Mindshackle Scarabs (3d6 Leadership test)
-Grav Guns
-Lascannons
-Meltas
-Any rending close combat squad
-Any Deathstar with Power Fists
-Blob Squad to tie it up the whole game
-Many other ways that im not typing due to energy expended.

so when asked how to kill wraithknights, you come up with EIGHT solutions. you got the entierty of what is called 40k, and came up with EIGHTthings. i believe there are more than 8 ARMIES in 40k.

you still see no problem?!

Wraithknights are JUMP MC's
have S10 weaponary TWO TIMES
they wreck havoc in close combat. LOTS of attacks ALL S10 AP2
they have 6 wounds on a 3+ save AND
god but not least... they have TOUGHNESS EIGHT.

they are the toughest, strongest, ranged and closequarter MC's in the core rulebook. can be buffed by eldar trickery AND cost only laughable 240 points.

thats 40 points per wound...

yeah sounds pretty reasonable to me -.-



but yes, you are right ill just find me a 600 point deathstar and kill it with no probs... see no problem... it can be killed we just arent trying hard enough =)

A 250 pts (or so, might be more) Leman Russ Vanquisher can one shot a Wraithknight reliably if you use FW Beast Hunter shells.

i can generally kiss balance goodbye, if i use most of the FW or IA stuff


...not that core 40k is balanced anyway, but FW brings it up to a new level =)

RedNoak wrote:
i can generally kiss balance goodbye, if i use most of the FW or IA stuff


...not that core 40k is balanced anyway, but FW brings it up to a new level =)

?

I've never seen FW trip half so hard as with Invisibility, Imperial Knights, Wave Serpents, or Riptides. (All right, once. The Achilles really shouldn't exist.)