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Okay first off lets not count the new fluff about him really having different goals for each Black Crusade.

Abaddon manages to unite the forces of chaos 13 times, manages to inflict massive casualties each time, (presumably) obtaining large amounts of war material each time and managing to cause all number of chaos cults to spring up each time all while retaining enough face value and assets to repeat it 13 times.

Considering this the Imperium of mankind I don't think that can count as enough failure to warrant all the "no arms" jokes.

No, he's actually the third greatest threat to the Imperium. People just like to make jokes at his expense.

Abaddon having different goals for the Crusades is not "new fluff". This is how it's been written since... shoot... ages now. 3rd Ed at least.

 Psienesis wrote:
Abaddon having different goals for the Crusades is not "new fluff". This is how it's been written since... shoot... ages now. 3rd Ed at least.

yeah, I've seen fluff for it predating 6th edition. the thing is it's not ALWAYS been spelled out. reading between the lines is an important skill in reading gaming sourcebooks

He isn't a failure. He is playing the long game. A really long game. Each crusade has had a goal. Not one of which was get to Terra. Each crusade has achieved its stated goal. Plus he has burned and exterminated hundreds or thousands of planets in the name of chaos. People calling him a failure is just an ongoing joke in the community. It harks back to the days of Abaddon the Armless and what not.

Also, the fact he's United the forces of chaos 13 times is itself a pretty big deal...

Yeah. Getting CHAOS to follow his own version of order is no small feat.

The thing you've got to remember as well is that the imperium is a very different place than it was 10k years ago. The horus heresy almost worked because half of the imperial guard disappeared and the mechanicum shut down weapons production, and there were relatively few space marines over a vast distance. In those circumstances, it would be possible to strike fast and hard and make it to the gates of terra.

But now things are different. Now every planet has a competent PDF, and the imperial guard is way stronger and more pervasive and better organized. Manufacturing is spread across dozens of forgeworlds and lesser munitions are even handled by-planet. Space marine numbers increased greatly after the heresy, and are now tied to local feifs, meaning that there are always some everywhere, rather than having huge gaps in their coverage.

So you have to change your definition of success based on how conditions change. Being able to slowly beat the imperium, of all things, in a game of attrition with some of the least reliable armed forces in the galaxy takes serious skill.

By my calculations, yes, he is a failure.

AFAIK, the only Black Crusade that wasn't an outright success was the 13th (which he lost due to GW stepping in to prevent the baddies from winning).

However, it's fun to joke around with Abaddon the Armless.

Hasn't the 13th Black Crusade just been retconned away anyway? I think the setting currently is on the brink of it.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Hasn't the 13th Black Crusade just been retconned away anyway? I think the setting currently is on the brink of it.

No idea, but afaik Chaos won the games, but GW couldn't let them win, so they decided it was a draw instead.

So that's Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade they ran and then completely ignored?

 ImAGeek wrote:
So that's Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade they ran and then completely ignored?

Yes.

At any rate, given how quickly Abaddon's forces are moving, Terra will be conquered three times before he gets there.

For all 13th Black Crusade questions, or just to find out simply what happened, please refer to:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

 ImAGeek wrote:
So that's Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade they ran and then completely ignored?

GW's not the only gaming company to basicly ignore the results of a fan played out battle... it's pretty common honestly, which makes me ask "why do gaming companies keep putting the 'fate of the world' in the hands of their players, when it's obvious that they're going to mostly ignore the results if they dislike them?"

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So that's Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade they ran and then completely ignored?

Yes.

At any rate, given how quickly Abaddon's forces are moving, Terra will be conquered three times before he gets there.

3 times by who, exactly?
Of all the factions the only 2 that are really a threat to Terra are Chaos and the Tyranids afaik.

Abaddon certainly doesn't fail to bring out the people who get mad at others joking about him.

Here's the thing:

Never mind Terra, after ten thousand years, what territory does he hold?

After ten thousand years, how much non-superficial progress has he made in bringing the Imperium to it's knees?

Abaddon has a lot going for him. He's a very scary, skilled and powerful individual. He knows how to intimidate and inspire fractured warbands of insane superhumans. He's ruthless enough to throw countless lives at a problem until he's grabbed the objective he came for, even as his alliance crumbles and loses momentum.

If Abaddon is anywhere near your star system, tremble. He is very bad news.

But a skilled general? I'm not seeing it.

Said this before a few times, but I don't think Chaos, real Chaos, not just it's mortal and superhuman puppets, wants the Galaxy to truly burn. The status quo is already close to ideal conditions for Daemons. They don't want an agent who can destroy everything, they want an agent who causes enough mess that nothing ever improves.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Abaddon certainly doesn't fail to bring out the people who get mad at others joking about him.

The fact that this thread even exists shows people are incapable of differentiating the joke from the lore.

"Abaddon has led twelve Black Crusades against the Imperium to date. Some have been great invasions of whole legions, others have been vicious raids with only a few companies of the most deadly Chaos Space Marines under his command. Each attack has ravaged worlds close to the Eye of Terror." - Codex CSM 3e
None of which implies that any of them had Terra as a focus.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So that's Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade they ran and then completely ignored?

Yes.

At any rate, given how quickly Abaddon's forces are moving, Terra will be conquered three times before he gets there.

3 times by who, exactly?
Of all the factions the only 2 that are really a threat to Terra are Chaos and the Tyranids afaik.

Tyranids first. Then Necrons will sweep in, clean them out, and claim Terra. With no organized Imperial resistance, the Tau will expand until they control the galaxy. It may take a thousand years, but it'll take Abaddon much longer to do something other than collect weapons and siege Cadia again.

"Abaddon has led twelve Black Crusades against the Imperium. Some have been great invasions of whole Legions of the lost and the damned, others have been vicious raids with only a few companies of the most deadly Chaos Space Marines at his command. Each attack has sent the Imperium reeling and ravaged worlds close to the Eye of Terror. The High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago."

"Abaddon dreams of forging a diabolic empire of his own from the blazing ruins of the shattered Imperium. Each world, each city destroyed, is a step closer to wiping the canvas clean so he can make his mark upon the galaxy."

"Abaddon the Despoiler, most feared adversary of the Imperium, has slowly but surely marshalled the forces of countless Traitor Legions to the point where he stands on the brink of challenging the Emperor himself as Warmaster Horus did before him."

To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So that's Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade they ran and then completely ignored?

Yes.

At any rate, given how quickly Abaddon's forces are moving, Terra will be conquered three times before he gets there.

3 times by who, exactly?
Of all the factions the only 2 that are really a threat to Terra are Chaos and the Tyranids afaik.

Tyranids first. Then Necrons will sweep in, clean them out, and claim Terra. With no organized Imperial resistance, the Tau will expand until they control the galaxy. It may take a thousand years, but it'll take Abaddon much longer to do something other than collect weapons and siege Cadia again.

Except for the fact the the Tau will be opposed and get destroyed by the Necrons if it ever gets to that stage.

And since the 13th Crusade is Abaddon's main push where the actual goal is to wreck the heart of the Imperium it won't take him nearly that long, so he'd have reached Terra before that point.

I feel like people don't understand that the chaos gods don't want abandon to win, therefore, he can't. It's why Horus lost as well. If the imperium disappears, so does most of the strife and human emotions that the chaos gods and daemons thrive on.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So that's Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade they ran and then completely ignored?

Yes.

At any rate, given how quickly Abaddon's forces are moving, Terra will be conquered three times before he gets there.

3 times by who, exactly?
Of all the factions the only 2 that are really a threat to Terra are Chaos and the Tyranids afaik.

Tyranids first. Then Necrons will sweep in, clean them out, and claim Terra. With no organized Imperial resistance, the Tau will expand until they control the galaxy. It may take a thousand years, but it'll take Abaddon much longer to do something other than collect weapons and siege Cadia again.

Except for the fact the the Tau will be opposed and get destroyed by the Necrons if it ever gets to that stage.

And since the 13th Crusade is Abaddon's main push where the actual goal is to wreck the heart of the Imperium it won't take him nearly that long, so he'd have reached Terra before that point.

I don't think so. Weaponizing the Flayer virus could easily lead to a Tau win- especially with Eldar assistance.