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So I want to start playing WHFB (I currently play 40k), but i have a problem. I don't really know anything about it. My Local Shop Owner is going to let me borrow an army for a few games against him so I can start to lean the basics. He also warned me of the next edition of the rule book and recommended I wait till then to start reading much into it. I do want to start picking my army and painting so that I can table a painted army once i get the hang of it. So this is when my question comes about. I have done some research on the army and i think i have narrowed it down to 4 army. What are your opinions on the army and what helpful tips about them could you give me. I am down to, Tomb Kings, Ogres, Lizard Men, and Wood Elves. Tomb kings sounded fun with the whole res thing. Ogres caught my eye because well I like to smooth, I like using psychic powers in 40k and I read lizard men use magic so that grabbed my interest, and for the Wood Elves i just thank the Treeman look amazing.

You like the look of the Wood Elves, so get those.

I would recommend dwarves, but that's just me, and they have no magic so probably not for you. After dwarves, my largest knowledge of an army is lizard men, and they're really cool.

Well this has becme pretty much a standard form letter at this point lol.

Let's start with the standard 40k fallacies.

You can't netlist fantasy to anywhere near the extend you can in 40k. Fantasy is a game about movement & positioning. About feigns, traps & setting up for 3 turns from now. You cannot just say "give me a basic list" because there isn't one.

Let me put it this way. I have had a 120 point unit of skeletons destroy a 400 point unit of dragon princes (elite heavy cavalry) in ONE round of combat. I sacrificed a unit of 40 point zombie dogs to draw these guys out of formation. Then I charged them in the flank. This means I have a STATIC (before any attacks) combat resolution of 6. I charged for +1, in the flank for +1, with 3 extra ranks of troops for +3 and a banner for an additional +1. He had a static resolution of +1 for a banner. He had 2 elves in base contact meaning those only 2 could fight (you don't get supporting attacks to the flank or rear). He had to do 5 wounds with 4 elf attacks & 2 horse attacks just to NOT LOSE that combat against a unit less than 1/3 of his point cost. He only killed 2, I got lucky & killed one. He lost combat by 4, took a break test at -4ld and ran. I rolled high & caught up with him destroying the unit.

The moral of that story is WHAT you take doesn't matter nearly as much as HOW you use it. That is step one of fantasy, it is NOT 40k don't go in with that mindset.

That said here are some things you will need:
A General - This will automatically be the character with the highest Ld, usually a lord. He allows any unit within 12" to use his Ld instead of their own.
A BSB - This will be a hero level character, the BSB FORCES (note FORCES not ALLOWS) any friendly unit to reroll any failed Ld test. This may also be your general but I don't recommend putting so many eggs in one basket.
A Wizard - Generally anything above 1200 you want a lvl 3 or 4. This may also be your general but I don't recommend putting so many eggs in one basket.

Things to look into:
A Bunker: Generally a tough unit or a unit that can sit back. Essentially they stay out of harms way & act as extra shooting wounds for your mage.
An Anvil: This will usually be a combat block that is durable or hard to break. You get this into combat in order to hold you enemy in place so you can deliver....
A Hammer: This will be a harder hitting but less durable combat unit. Think knights. They come in & hit the flank of whatever i fighting your anvil. This is USUALLY enough to win you the combat pretty heavily.
Shooting: Used to soften up enemy units before combat, often these double as bunkers. Do not expect to delete units with pure shooting like in 40k unless you're spamming heavy shooting or shooting at...
Chaff: Weak cheap fast & disposable. The purpose of this unit is to screen your other units & bloack / redirect / bait charges. This is what my zombie dogs were in the above story.

Armies you mentioned:
Wood Elves: Tend to lend to a very shooty army. They can't stand toe-to-toe with anybody but due to shenanigans & heavy shooting they don't have to. Generally you will have low S & low T but it's made up for in movement tricks, fast cavalry & great shooting. A real glass cannon, they aren't exactly forgiving of mistakes but that doesn't mean they aren't good, just means they have a bit of a learning curve. Now while I don't advocate picking an army because it is "good" you shoul know that treemen are considered sub-optimal and you'll really only see 1 if any.

Tomb kings: Don't start with undead unless you are 100% SURE you want undead more than anything else. They ignore so many special rules that it will hurt you in the long run. You don't really care about combat res, steadfast or psycology. TK tend to play shooty if they want to do well but thanks to UL legions they got a nice boost in rules & now can take VC stuff as well. Also they don't do res very well, that's vampire counts (Well undead legions but the spell you want is in lore of vampires).But seriously unless your heart is set on undead, do it as your 2nd army. I started with VC and it's been a pain breaking my habits. Undead is much easier to get into than out of, not saying you can't start with them but I don't recommend it unless you're sure.

Lizardmen: A fantastic starter army. They play in all phases & thanks to cold-clooded & generally good armor and T they can be very forgiving. The downfall if they have low Init which means lore of death & lore of shadows can really hurt. But they have solid warriors (saurus) amazing mages (slann) powerful combat characters (cowboy saurus build) decent shooting (Skink clouds) and some really nice monsters. They have infantry, monstrs, cavalry & flyers so you get to see a lot. I think lizard men are a great starter army but again be aware that a purple sun (Init test or die template) will really hurt you.

Ogres: Another good starter army. Low model count, plays in all phases. I don't know too much about ogres though, only played them once. They have above average stats pretty much across the board but remember the basic guy is 3x what anyone else pays. The downside to ogres is low initiative and low model count. Things with multiple wounds really hurt but an ogre charge is absolutely devastating, especially if you build a "gut-star" as thanks to just being ogres your characters are already awesome.

What I recommend, before you buy anything else, buy & read the rulebook & watch some battle reports on youtube. Buying models without understanding how fantasy works is just going to result in wasted money & you not having a good first experience.


As a side note thanks to the end times book III : Khaine you can now field a combined army of HE/WE & DE but while it is heavily believed, it is still unconfirmed if they will stay unified. I recommend getting a full army before branching out unless it is officially confirmed they will stay unified. Again while it is heavily believed & implied it is still unconfirmed. Undead legions does the same but with TK & VC

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Do not expect to delete units with pure shooting like in 40k unless you're spamming heavy shooting

I disagree. With a unit of 20 Thunderers, provided my opponent doesn't get into combat quick enough (they are still quite good in CC however) I usually wipe out a unit a game, and maybe soften one or two up for my other units to smash.

I should have clarified.

By deleting units I mean whole units every turn or even in one turn. Over 6 turns 20 thunderers SHOULD be able to kill a unit of something but I rarely see a unit killed from full to 0 purely through shooting in one turn (unless it's vs a gunline army)

True cannons delete monsters but that's what they're for.

Go on ebay and pick up a copy of the rule book (mini size) for cheap. I got mine for under £10. There will still be a few months until 9th at least!

Pick an army that looks enjoyable to paint, as that is what 70% of fantasy is, painting rank and file.

Personally Wood Elves have incredible models, and tomb kings looks fun and quick to paint to a high standard.

Steer clear of TK for now, even if you really want them.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/629353.page

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Steer clear of TK for now, even if you really want them.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/629353.page

I wouldnt look too deep into that. If it was truly being discontinued they would have pulled them from the shelves like they do everything else they d/c. My local gw still has them on the shelf and that just wouldnt be the case if they were dropping them. Also if they were dropping them and leaving what was out there to sell till it was gone, my local shop manager would tell us that trying to goad us into buying his last reaming stock as "once its gone its gone. get it while its here"

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Well this has becme pretty much a standard form letter at this point lol.

Let's start with the standard 40k fallacies.

You can't netlist fantasy to anywhere near the extend you can in 40k. Fantasy is a game about movement & positioning. About feigns, traps & setting up for 3 turns from now. You cannot just say "give me a basic list" because there isn't one.

Let me put it this way. I have had a 120 point unit of skeletons destroy a 400 point unit of dragon princes (elite heavy cavalry) in ONE round of combat. I sacrificed a unit of 40 point zombie dogs to draw these guys out of formation. Then I charged them in the flank. This means I have a STATIC (before any attacks) combat resolution of 6. I charged for +1, in the flank for +1, with 3 extra ranks of troops for +3 and a banner for an additional +1. He had a static resolution of +1 for a banner. He had 2 elves in base contact meaning those only 2 could fight (you don't get supporting attacks to the flank or rear). He had to do 5 wounds with 4 elf attacks & 2 horse attacks just to NOT LOSE that combat against a unit less than 1/3 of his point cost. He only killed 2, I got lucky & killed one. He lost combat by 4, took a break test at -4ld and ran. I rolled high & caught up with him destroying the unit.

The moral of that story is WHAT you take doesn't matter nearly as much as HOW you use it. That is step one of fantasy, it is NOT 40k don't go in with that mindset.

That said here are some things you will need:
A General - This will automatically be the character with the highest Ld, usually a lord. He allows any unit within 12" to use his Ld instead of their own.
A BSB - This will be a hero level character, the BSB FORCES (note FORCES not ALLOWS) any friendly unit to reroll any failed Ld test. This may also be your general but I don't recommend putting so many eggs in one basket.
A Wizard - Generally anything above 1200 you want a lvl 3 or 4. This may also be your general but I don't recommend putting so many eggs in one basket.

Things to look into:
A Bunker: Generally a tough unit or a unit that can sit back. Essentially they stay out of harms way & act as extra shooting wounds for your mage.
An Anvil: This will usually be a combat block that is durable or hard to break. You get this into combat in order to hold you enemy in place so you can deliver....
A Hammer: This will be a harder hitting but less durable combat unit. Think knights. They come in & hit the flank of whatever i fighting your anvil. This is USUALLY enough to win you the combat pretty heavily.
Shooting: Used to soften up enemy units before combat, often these double as bunkers. Do not expect to delete units with pure shooting like in 40k unless you're spamming heavy shooting or shooting at...
Chaff: Weak cheap fast & disposable. The purpose of this unit is to screen your other units & bloack / redirect / bait charges. This is what my zombie dogs were in the above story.

Armies you mentioned:
Wood Elves: Tend to lend to a very shooty army. They can't stand toe-to-toe with anybody but due to shenanigans & heavy shooting they don't have to. Generally you will have low S & low T but it's made up for in movement tricks, fast cavalry & great shooting. A real glass cannon, they aren't exactly forgiving of mistakes but that doesn't mean they aren't good, just means they have a bit of a learning curve. Now while I don't advocate picking an army because it is "good" you shoul know that treemen are considered sub-optimal and you'll really only see 1 if any.

Tomb kings: Don't start with undead unless you are 100% SURE you want undead more than anything else. They ignore so many special rules that it will hurt you in the long run. You don't really care about combat res, steadfast or psycology. TK tend to play shooty if they want to do well but thanks to UL legions they got a nice boost in rules & now can take VC stuff as well. Also they don't do res very well, that's vampire counts (Well undead legions but the spell you want is in lore of vampires).But seriously unless your heart is set on undead, do it as your 2nd army. I started with VC and it's been a pain breaking my habits. Undead is much easier to get into than out of, not saying you can't start with them but I don't recommend it unless you're sure.

Lizardmen: A fantastic starter army. They play in all phases & thanks to cold-clooded & generally good armor and T they can be very forgiving. The downfall if they have low Init which means lore of death & lore of shadows can really hurt. But they have solid warriors (saurus) amazing mages (slann) powerful combat characters (cowboy saurus build) decent shooting (Skink clouds) and some really nice monsters. They have infantry, monstrs, cavalry & flyers so you get to see a lot. I think lizard men are a great starter army but again be aware that a purple sun (Init test or die template) will really hurt you.

Ogres: Another good starter army. Low model count, plays in all phases. I don't know too much about ogres though, only played them once. They have above average stats pretty much across the board but remember the basic guy is 3x what anyone else pays. The downside to ogres is low initiative and low model count. Things with multiple wounds really hurt but an ogre charge is absolutely devastating, especially if you build a "gut-star" as thanks to just being ogres your characters are already awesome.

What I recommend, before you buy anything else, buy & read the rulebook & watch some battle reports on youtube. Buying models without understanding how fantasy works is just going to result in wasted money & you not having a good first experience.


As a side note thanks to the end times book III : Khaine you can now field a combined army of HE/WE & DE but while it is heavily believed, it is still unconfirmed if they will stay unified. I recommend getting a full army before branching out unless it is officially confirmed they will stay unified. Again while it is heavily believed & implied it is still unconfirmed. Undead legions does the same but with TK & VC

Thank you so much. I know this took some time. I have watched games and some youtube but still tons to learn. I want to start collecting so that I can paint because I hate fielding unpainted models. With your help I think I have narrowed down to ogres or lizard men. It might come down to (between those 2) what is played less at the local shop. I like to lean that way to keep tourneys and games fun.