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I was wondering, how feasible would it be that there is a chapter of space marines who replaced their standard bolters with oversized lasguns designed for space marine hands?
Lasguns, though weaker, have huge advantages over bolters, mainly ammunition and reliability.

Is adeptus mechanicus even capable of adjusting standard lasguns to suit space marines? Does their religion allow them?

And, importantly, are space marines with lasguns too crazy for 40k fluff?

Space Marines already have lasguns. They are called lascannons

Anyway, yeah, I think that would be too much of a modification for the Ad Mech.

The point of Space Marines are to kill the things that the Guard can't, anyway/

Maybe a scout might carry one if required. Or if training, there cheap and reliable weapons, hard to break. Ideal for guys in training.

Ammo is free effectively and weapons are easy to get hold of.

A better idea would be multi-lasers hooked up to the fusion generator of power armor. While weaker then a bolter, you'd get a rapid-fire laser precise weapon with functionally infinite ammo.

Pretty sure CS Goto went this direction or tried to, I know he went the multi-laser route

I think a space-marines fist is deadlier than a single lasgun is.

But it wouldn't be codex astartes compliant to carry a lasgun around. The space marines are an investment not to be squandered. Its one of the reasons they get better equipment than the rest of the imperium's myriad fighting forces. Using a lasgun when they could be accomplishing their mission with something far more efficient would be wasting their potential and genetic gifts.

Also another the reason a bolter is used is because the space marines don't have the numbers for the massed fire-power tactic that makes the lasgun effective for the guard. They will always be out-numbered so they need every shot to count.

 Wyzilla wrote:
A better idea would be multi-lasers hooked up to the fusion generator of power armor. While weaker then a bolter, you'd get a rapid-fire laser precise weapon with functionally infinite ammo.

I think they did something similar in the Dawn of War novels and the Death Watch novel featuring the Mantis Warriors (both books by C.S Goto). Devastators carried Multi-Lasers around as a heavy weapon.

IIRC there were Rogue Trader era Space Marine models with Lasguns (and Shuriken Catapults).

Also just remembered this image



Since 2E basically, I don't think GW's done anything with Marines having anything they don't now however.


As for Multilasers, C.S. Goto earned eternal infamy for his Multilaser antics, he did Ward's thing before Ward came around.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I think a space-marines fist is deadlier than a single lasgun is.

But it wouldn't be codex astartes compliant to carry a lasgun around. The space marines are an investment not to be squandered. Its one of the reasons they get better equipment than the rest of the imperium's myriad fighting forces. Using a lasgun when they could be accomplishing their mission with something far more efficient would be wasting their potential and genetic gifts.

Maybe if it was using some cheap, mass-produced conscript's lasgun, sure. Not if they were using some sort of hot shot lasweapon, or hellgun analogue, especially something scaled more to their size (some Marines can tote lascannon like oversized rifles, after all.) Or even more extreme, look at what the Solar Auxilia get for toys and put that up to Astartes standards.

Also another the reason a bolter is used is because the space marines don't have the numbers for the massed fire-power tactic that makes the lasgun effective for the guard.

Lasweapons can be sustained fire in cutting beams (like a lance). I don't think you need to worry so much about mass fire when you could literally slice apart your enemies (horde of charging orks having their legs chopped off by high-powered lasfire.)

They will always be out-numbered so they need every shot to count.

If the lasweapon hooks up to the Power armour suit it probably won't be a major issue. Especially if the suit either has a small nuclear reactor or it can be recharged via solar power (as can the lasweapon.) Its far more easy to carry more shots, anyhow.

Like most things about Space Marines, it seems to be less about cost effective mass production-style efficiency (more attritional thinking, which is true even of Sisters of Battle and Scions) and more about symbolism and psychological impact of Space Marines as ANGELS OF DEATH. Distinctive weapons, distinctive effects, etc. Not unlike Titans as GOD MACHINES as opposed to say, Baneblades and such or even Knights.

Another advantage to bolters is that, unlike las-guns, they are slightly more discreet. Its harder to tell where a bolter shot came from versus a lasbeam.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Another advantage to bolters is that, unlike las-guns, they are slightly more discreet. Its harder to tell where a bolter shot came from versus a lasbeam.

Well, there'd still be the massive muzzle blast, rocket contrail, etc.

This is to say nothing of the fact that actual laser weapons really have no followable trace either (e.g. http://www.livescience.com/49099-laser-weapon-system-ready.html)

Aren't bolters really loud? Like, .50 caliber loud?

I think there are two real issues:

The first is that marines use bolters out of tradition (this is what we've used for 10,000 years).

The other is the fact that in order to get a laser set up that'd be as strong as a bolter and can hook into their normal power pack they'd either have to invent one or find a STC for it. STCs are exceedingly rare (and we're talking just the blue prints, a true STC hasn't been seen since before the Great Crusade).

And then there's invention. Marines have certainly introduced vehicle variants...but those were mostly cases of "let's bolt a new weapon on the turret or side." You'd have to look to the Admech and let's not talk about how they feel about innovation...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't bolters really loud? Like, .50 caliber loud?

Try 20mm loud.

 Vaktathi wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Another advantage to bolters is that, unlike las-guns, they are slightly more discreet. Its harder to tell where a bolter shot came from versus a lasbeam.

Well, there'd still be the massive muzzle blast, rocket contrail, etc.

This is to say nothing of the fact that actual laser weapons really have no followable trace either (e.g. http://www.livescience.com/49099-laser-weapon-system-ready.html)

Yes but that does not seem to be how lasweaponry works in 40k.






In the novels they even mention criss-crossing trails of fire and the color of the beams.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't bolters really loud? Like, .50 caliber loud?

Try 20mm loud.

Yep, that's pretty loud

on a battlefield laser weapons might be quite visable, with all the smoke and dust thrown up over the battlefield.

Boltguns are plenty reliable, especially the ones the Astartes carry. Those things are masterpieces created by the best weaponsmiths the Imperium can present. The worst, most-junked piece of gear the Astartes possess is leagues ahead of an equivalent in the hands of anyone in the Imperial Guard.

There's also the problem that lasweapons are just not effective enough against most of the things the Space Marines are likely to fight.

At times Kinetic weaponry does seem more potent than las-weaponry. Also there are some species like the Loxatl who have a resistance to las-weapons.

All las weapon discharge is visible to the naked eye in 40k. It's backed up by art, games, and novels.

Hence why I noted *actual* laser weapons

This is to say nothing of the contradictions and poor mechanics of bolters in general. Having been described as firing caseless ammunition at several points yet clearly are shown ejecting cases and artwork of bolter shells having cases, etc. To say nothing of the fact that there have been guns that try to work on the principles a bolter does, and they can't hit squat due the nature of the projectile still accelerating and stabilizing as it leaves the barrel versus a bullet being at its fastest and most stable as it leaves the barrel.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hence why I noted *actual* laser weapons

This is to say nothing of the contradictions and poor mechanics of bolters in general. Having been described as firing caseless ammunition at several points yet clearly are shown ejecting cases and artwork of bolter shells having cases, etc. To say nothing of the fact that there have been guns that try to work on the principles a bolter does, and they can't hit squat due the nature of the projectile still accelerating and stabilizing as it leaves the barrel versus a bullet being at its fastest and most stable as it leaves the barrel.

Not all bolter rounds may come sheathed in a case. There are a lot of special ammunition rounds that may work differently from a standard bolter round.

It's been a long, long time since bolters were described as caseless. Further, it would require another 10,000 years of work by the AdMech to develop "actual" laser weapons, rather than the Star Wars blaster-like weapons that are the current norm.

It's partly about tradition, but it's also something to do with the "shock and awe" aspect of the Astartes - if your comrade gets hit by a lasgun, he falls down with a relatively clean hole in him. If he gets hit by a bolter round, he bursts, making a lot of mess.

I think I know which one is going to have a bigger impact on morale.

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
It's partly about tradition, but it's also something to do with the "shock and awe" aspect of the Astartes - if your comrade gets hit by a lasgun, he falls down with a relatively clean hole in him. If he gets hit by a bolter round, he bursts, making a lot of mess.

I think I know which one is going to have a bigger impact on morale.

Lasguns don't burn holes through stuff. They're lasers and super-heat objects, causing them to explode due to a combination of heat and pressure. They're specifically better then autoguns as compared to ballistic weapons, which typically tumble and cause some tears in the organs and create an exit wounds- Lasguns are not lethal unless they hit something vital. Instead lasgun wounds strip muscle tissue, such as completely erasing somebody's bicep, thus making them useless and needing bionic augmentation to be able to fight ever again. Plus while treating lasgun wounds, it massively drains the resources of most enemies due to lasgun victims typically living long enough to suffer from infection.

Bolters meanwhile vaporize somebody's head, or detonate in their stomach and spray the contents of the torso it hit across all of the people near the victim.

How 40K weapons work and their effects is one of those many things entirely up for debate. After all, many bolter examples have them 'merely' blowing off limbs or blowing apart heads, and thats something you could achieve with a real life full power rifle round. Nevermind that lasguns have also been depicted doing both (again, why it depends on the interpretations of stuff.)

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Yes but that does not seem to be how lasweaponry works in 40k.

<snip pretty pictures>

In the novels they even mention criss-crossing trails of fire and the color of the beams.

Novels and artwork also depict bolters ejecting casings and Leman Russes with naval-battleship-wide cannon muzzles. Of course its entirely possible according to certain interpretations of sci fi stuff, lasers can be visibile - at least under certain conditions. Especially if they are visible-wavelength lasers (which happens to be one of the ideal ones for a plausible laser small arm, and also amongst the most visible in an atmosphere.)

 Psienesis wrote:
It's been a long, long time since bolters were described as caseless. Further, it would require another 10,000 years of work by the AdMech to develop "actual" laser weapons, rather than the Star Wars blaster-like weapons that are the current norm.

Eh? I don't think lasguns fire slow-light lasers, they've mostly been described as firing beams like in Dawn of War and Space Marine. Pulsing lasers are generally better than constant beams anyway.

Wyzilla wrote: Plus while treating lasgun wounds, it massively drains the resources of most enemies due to lasgun victims typically living long enough to suffer from infection.

Wait, we're still dragging this one around?

Which of the Imperium's enemies other than run of the mill rebellious planets are worrying about patching up their casualties? Orks? Tyranids? Necrons? Chaos?

I mean, this really only holds true for the Tau or Eldar.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Wyzilla wrote: Plus while treating lasgun wounds, it massively drains the resources of most enemies due to lasgun victims typically living long enough to suffer from infection.

Wait, we're still dragging this one around?

Which of the Imperium's enemies other than run of the mill rebellious planets are worrying about patching up their casualties? Orks? Tyranids? Necrons? Chaos?

I mean, this really only holds true for the Tau or Eldar.

The most commonly fought enemy of the Imperium is Orks, the second one however being humans. Not to mention the most common enemy during the Great Crusade was other humans.

It could be that severe burns (cauterization) is harder for many factions to recover from (regenerate) than mechanical damage. At least with Orks it could also prevent spores (and we know Orks get cremated so there's at least that much.) but I admit this is more a reversion to fantasy-esque logic 'fire damage stops regenerators' type stuff than it is anything concrete.

Still, its the best reason I can think of why the Imperium would want lasweapons that cauterize at all, since letting your enemies bleed out is more desirable as a wounding
mechanism (and you don't have to inflict severe/deep burns to add fataility either, neccesarily.) so a lasweapon that still causes bleeding would be desirable in the vast majority of cases.

I give Henry Zou credit for trying to use that rationale for lasweapons (I think it was the same one for certain kinds of RL rifle rounds too - injuries take more effort/resources to handle than deaths.) but its not neccesarily an ironclad 'covers every stiuation' type thing, even against human oponents.

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's been a long, long time since bolters were described as caseless. Further, it would require another 10,000 years of work by the AdMech to develop "actual" laser weapons, rather than the Star Wars blaster-like weapons that are the current norm.

Eh? I don't think lasguns fire slow-light lasers, they've mostly been described as firing beams like in Dawn of War and Space Marine. Pulsing lasers are generally better than constant beams anyway.

Abnett's writing for the Ghosts seems to fluctuate between a beam weapon and 'lazer bullets'. There's one bit in 'Armour of Contempt' where it seems like Tona's lascarbine (against the daemon possessed tank) actually is subsonic.

It could be that they are hybrid laser/particle weapons. You could kinda, sorta make that work, and it would kinda-sorta work with Andy Chambers old BFG-POV on what lances were (akin to a solar flare and part laser, part charged particles.)

I've made similar points before. I don't think marines should abandon bolters- the Emperor chose them for a reason and if they seem ineffective now it's only because of fluff/power creep. Whatever the best the Imperium could supply was when the Emperor was in charge should- barring innovation (in the Imperium, hahaha!) still be the best around.

That said while replacing bolters shouldn't happen I don't know why marines were never equipped with built in laser weaponry. Eliminating the need for a grip and power pack a laspistol could be integrated into a marines wrists or even helmet on a 'look and fire' basis, similar to the way mandiblasters are mounted. An extra through triggered short range weapon- even as weak as a laspistol- would be extremely useful. Marines are *always* outnumbered and there are going to be times when ork one has your arm pinned, ork 2 needs that choppa blocked and ork 3 might just be stopped- even for a moment- by a las shot to the face. Hell I imagine any marine drowning in termagants, cultists or similar would love the idea of 'look and shoot' point blank weaponry.

That said, since hellguns and the like exist, I see no reason marines shouldn't use them. Especially strike forces who can't be sure when reinforcements may arrive and need to have as much ammo as possible. Hell even if it's a drop pod load out it'd work. Marines secure an area only to learn that they've lost or are about to lose space superiority and be cut off for months. That ork raider party they headed off was just the scouting force for a huge Waaagh! and now they're stuck planetside and their cruiser has to run or die. Before it leaves it sends down some drop pods with supplies including hotshot weapons so that for the next 3-6 months the marines can keep fighting.