Switch Theme:

Article Discussion: Kill Team Tactica (for Warhammer 40,000 7th edition)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in hk



This is an automated message added by the articles system.

A new article titled Kill Team Tactica (for Warhammer 40,000 7th edition) has been added to the dakka articles system.

This message thread is for the discussion of content in the article.

If you have anything to add to the article, then just jump in and edit it by going to the actual article page and clicking 'edit' (the link can be found just above the article). If there is no edit link then the article is locked for now, so just add your comments or content to this thread and if they are appropriate then they should eventually get merged in.

If there is something in the article that you wish to debate or comment on, then this is the place to do it. Just hit the reply button and get chatting! You need to be registered and logged in to post in the forums so if you are an anonymous article editor then now would be a great time to register and join in dakka's great forum discussion!
   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut









Tactica for Warhammer 40,000 7th edition


Hi Dakkamites, it's been about half a year since I last posted about Kill Team. That was at the end of the 6th edition, when we were still playing around with Chapter Tactics, and Kill Team was still a set of Warhammer World weekend event rules. Now we're in 7th edition, we've experimented with many new codices, and Kill Team has grown into its own full-fledged supplement.

Based on conversations in the old 6th ed Kill Team Tactica, we're streamlining the article. Every list has hard counters, and in 200 points, we have yet to find the ultimate take-all-comers list (we always find some way to bring a list down). It didn't make sense to over-analyse every single unit type. Instead, we noticed certain units kept showing up...and consistently perform better than others.

The idea is that this is a great overview, like a Wikipedia article, for people coming to Kill Team for the 1st time. The conversation, however, is an ongoing process. We'll be talking here in this Article Discussion Thread, but I'll be reading the Army List forums, sharing experiences there, talking to my local meta where Kill Team remains a popular quick pick-up game.

---

Now, for past readers especially, let's see what's stayed the same, and what's changed...

SAME - Kill Team still favours Boys Before Toys, but make sure to bring anti-vehicle measures.

CHANGED - Infiltrate and Scout are now available, a massive game-changer. The 6 missions in the Kill Team supplement (whereas back in 6th we had...1 mission) has changed the landscape considerably. Maneuverability is now a much greater factor, especially since the newer codices discounted Bikes and other units considerably.

Thus, it's not just a factor of 7th ed, nor just new Kill Team rules, but also new codices and a new meta that Games Workshop is leaning towards more mobility these days.

---

Most recently we were toying with Blood Angels. Why do they have Heavy Flamers? Why are their Sternguard cheaper? Well, they're pretty interesting in Kill Team.

However, I just need to gather up my notes and talk to a few people as we add back a section on a top tier Kill Team codex: the Eldar. Update coming within the week.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/05 17:12:43


   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

Great article.

I'm planning on getting some kill team action soon, and I'll come bare any share an insights that occur to me, that are not already covered in the article

   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







 Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote:
However, I just need to gather up my notes and talk to a few people as we add back a section on a top tier Kill Team codex: the Eldar. Update coming within the week.


Sorry we're a little behind schedule. As the consolidator of this Article (I prefer that term over Authour as the reality is I'm taking our meta's advice, your advice, and organising the info) I want to at least observe the battles on units being reviewed before adding to it. We've talked about it with some key contributors and we'll test some Eldar units out. The guys are fairly convinced there's some Killer Kill Team Tactics with Eldar and I'm going to see if that's true. Update expected within 24 to 48 hours.

   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

That is great news. I've found a lot of valuable insight in the article so far, and I look forward to further revelations.

   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

redacted

Wrong Thread

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/18 23:54:06


   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







What we added today: just a brief overview of the missions, since actually looking at the objectives really helps demonstrate why certain units work better than others.

What we didn't add today: our suspicion on what may be the Kill Team To Beat, as we want to play against it a bit more, and we've just been busy with other stuff.

I'll just share personal feelings. Based on past experience, I'm very careful about what makes it into the actual article. Readers get extremely offended when what they like aren't highly praised or they misread what we added. We've learned to be much more conservative with our recommendations and kept things from TL;DR to avoid confusion.

Thus, I never added outright what I thought to be the Kill Team To Beat (assuming famous different codices like in a tournament, with random missions you didn't know in advance), which is some combination of loyalist Space Marine Scouts and/or Bikers. Their suitability for the KT conditions, ability to deal with most enemy types even without extra expensive weargear, combined with Chapter Tactics, then ATSKNF, and a decreased points cost in the latest codex, give the best bang for buck (points) in KT.

UNTIL NOW...we think. While toying with Eldar, which has many great options plus everyone is quite mobile, we found what shines most is, ironically, the DARK Eldar. Some combination of the improved Mandrakes with Warriors and their Poisoned weapons make them super annoying. BUT it might be a kneejerk reaction. Example - one of us strongly recommended Genestealers until I scored a near-perfect KT game against him (killed all his Genestealers AND took the objectives.)

So things like this take some time as we run a relatively new codex through its paces, against previous KTs. But holy crap those Mandrakes, they're scary.

In the meantime, I'm going to start adding in some FAQ types of things. Analysing a roster by mission was 1 thing we added today, just so people think about that in advance. But the other big thing is rules interpretation, like "how do Necron Deathmarks work" and "hey, if I make 1 guy an Infiltrate Specialist, put him in our Dedicated Transport, the rest of his squad can infiltrate in the vehicle with him, right? Right?"

   
Made in us
Adolescent Youth on Ultramar



Indonesia

Thanks for the Article.

Our group is starting to play 40k, and we're starting with Kill Team to learn the ropes before jumping in to larger points.

However, we have some difficulties on choosing the specialist. Will there be any breakdowns or preferences to each specialist SR?

And also does Specialist SR stacks or cumulative with the units'/models' USR?

For example, can a Death Company model have two FNP or Rage or etc?
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

Specialist SRs in Kill Team are USRs and duplicate USRs do not stack

   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator




Stratford on avon

We have a guy who runs 11 eldar bikes in our kill team games.

My most hated list in scions with there AP3 hell guns denying every armour on the board haha.

Im currently running FE 5 suits TL Missiles, TL plasma (hes the Infiltrater) and 3 TL Burst Cannons one with rending

but am toying with thw idea of a massive kroot team with 2 krotox riders one with rending for the AT

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 14:47:34


Careful I have CDO it’s like OCD but in alphabetical order LIKE IT SHOULD BE!!!!!!

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

4000Pts
3000Pts
1000Pts
2000Pts
1500Pts 
   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







Hi all, thank you if you're following this article, I apologise for not updating earlier.

We were in the midst of adding an Eldar section when I last posted here, but then we soon heard rumours of a new Craftworld Eldar codex, so we held off.

Now, it's still early days, but due to the similarities between the not-even-old-yet Eldar codex and the brand-spanking-new Craftworld Eldar codex, we were confident in making the update now.

The TL;DR is, the Eldar were already great. Now, they're even better, with no points increase, and many of the changes are ideally suited for the condition of Kill Team.

---

Right now, this article includes:

- general Kill Team tactica

That's the most important part IMHO as you guys are experienced players, but you may not be used to the Kill Team meta yet, like how people skew the game by taking a horde of Grots you rarely see in big games. Then we added our top picks and tricks for:

- Space Marines
- Chaos Daemons
- Orks
- Astra Militarum
- now Craftworld Eldar

We've played other codices in Kill Team, especially Chaos Space Marines and even Tyranids, but we reckon even veterans of these armies already know of their gaps. If you're particularly interested in seeing our take on certain armies (as Kill Team is an ongoing thing we play here), please let us know.

   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Glasgow, United Kingdom

Skitarii would be interesting to hear about.
   
Made in us
Stinky Spore




Any thoughts on Warbuggies? They seem like they may be a good alternative to Koptas seeing as they're cheaper and fairly resistant to standard shooting.
   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







I made some minor updates to the article, adding back some units with our greater experience with them , and our findings with Tyranids, which comes down to only Genestealers due to Synapse rules. Then we put a little checklist that I think will help new players. Time and again, we just find new players overload on wargear without realising you just want a high model count and some anti-vehicle countermeasures, so we particularly focus on those reminders. For those of you that have been following the article, we know we repeat ourselves when we tell people to take more models. We do this because a.) it's worth repeating as new Kill Team players really fall in the trap of making wargear-heavy "SWAT" teams and b.) it honestly does help in more ways than one.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Skitarii would be interesting to hear about.


Thanks to your suggestion, we played the Skitarii today! We've been meaning to do so since we got the White Dwarf preview last month.

We took a look at a copy of the Codex, chose what was allowable in Kill Team (which was pretty much covered in the White Dwarf).

We're not adding this to the Tactica yet as we want to run more games with this new army with new mechanics...but we want to give you a first look.

The overall winner of the codex IMHO is the Skitarii Vanguard . It's not just because they're the lowest points-cost option, but even if they weren't and were more in line in points cost as, say, the Skitarii Rangers, we would favour the Vanguard. The reason why is they better fit the Kill Team meta as Mid-field Generalists, a little bit like Space Marine Tacticals or Scouts.

At first, I personally considered them as a more exotic Imperial Guard Veteran; they get similar armour, no grenades, but a fancier gun instead, with some fancy rules like this Doctrina Imperatives. They also have FNP on a 6, which I've discovered was very unreliable when I tested Space Marines using the Iron Hands CT, and still doesn't work great here. What worked for them was their other roll on a 6: Rad Poisoning Weapons. Since that Radium Carbine is only S3, to wound the popular T4 models you need a 5 or 6 anyway, we saw that Rad Poisoning effect come into play a lot on these Assault 3 weapons. Forcing 2 power armour saves instead of just 1 made a significant difference.

Then it comes to close combat and how did they fare? With their rad saturation to subtract the opponent's Toughness, that made them more of a threat. But the big clincher was their Doctrina Imperatives rule. It is not a gimmick; it is like their Competitive Advantage, in the same way that Space Marines have CT. In fact, I feel it's a lot like the Ultramarines CT in its effect. By allowing you to adjust your WS and BS per turn, it really fits the Kill Team meta. The reason is most Kill Team games follow a rhythm; you start off very ranged focus, but the later half of the game ends up with a brawl. The simple fact this relatively low-cost unit can play both roles well, when it matters most, makes them very interesting!

Example - our 1st test game, I faced Space Marines; still IMHO the best overall Kill Team codex, so I was at a disadvantage with new untested models. Relied on the BS Doctrine in Turn 1, because we were basically already in range with some units, hit a lot, and scored a 6 or 2 to double-Wound with Rads, forcing those extra saves. Turn 2 we were in charge range, so I switched to WS buffs. Even though I was the one that got charged by Space Marines, and they have higher Initiatives, they found it difficult to even score a hit. Then I fought back with my higher WS, hit their lower Toughness, and no longer feared Space Marines in close combat. That's a pretty big deal for a relatively cheap unit! Doctrina Imperatives, combined with the Skitarii Vanguard's other fancy rules, makes for a flexible and lethal army.

The other units, I've yet to see value in, but we'll test them further. The Skitarii Rangers were like a variation of Tau Fire Warriors, which isn't bad, but Tau has some cool Kill Team options. Their 2 Walkers, the Dragoon and the Ironstrider, were basically pricier Armored Sentinels, and for their points I'd rather get another squad of Vanguard. When picking out what works best for a Kill Team one of our criteria is choosing a codex's units that are better than what their equivalents in other armies can do, and so far the other Skitarii units don't pass that test.

(on a side note, this makes Ork Shoota Boyz, which are only 2 points cheaper than a Vanguard, seem even worse than ever.)

The Skitarii Vanguard's full-spectrum bag of tricks is what distinguished it. Their natural fit with the Kill Team meta...ranged followed by melee in midfield combat, makes them a fun and effective pick. But even as a wrap this post up, I'm fully aware part of what worked was the novelty factor; opponents haven't really faced something like this yet. They expect, as I did, that Skitarii are a Guard-equivalent, so that's an advantage that'll wane with their increased experience. So we'll add a couple more games before we include them in the Tactica.

   
Made in pl
Freaky Flayed One





Poland

Hi, thanks for the article! I agree with most of it.

In general, I think it's worth mentioning that close combat is quite bad in kill team, as you can force only 1, 2 miniatures at a time to fight you (and if you charge 2, you lose your bonus attack). So, with a close combat army, you charge, kill one soldier at best, and then get shot at close range by all the friends of the guy you killed.

Also, Relentless specialist with a Heavy weapon works very, very well.

With (C)SM, I think it's worth to mention Rhinos: without them, Marines are very slow and can be out-shooted by an army with lots of long-range weapons. Also, in my games Rhinos were pretty hard to kill, and very good at protecting the guys inside. And when the opponent loses anti-armour, Rhinos are a win button.

For IG, Autocannon HWT are pretty great. You buy - dunno - 2, 3? of them, encircle with a ring of rank-and-file Guard, and force your opponent to come closer while killing his or her most important stuff. In our games, it rocked in 5 missions out of 6 (in Alone in the Dark, the Guard are at a disadvantage).

For Necrons, 9 Tomb Blades seem to be the top choice. Mathhammer-wise, they deal top damage and have good survivability. So far I think that compared to them, everything else in the codex is either too slow or can't shoot, and thus dies to shooting opponents.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/02 01:49:42


1500 pts
500 pts
150 pts 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch






The new Eldar bikes are obviously the best thing for killteams I imagine.

I also imagine some Tomb blades and some destroyers would be fine choices.


As for non-ridiculous things, any ideas for what Dark Eldar could run in killteams? I think some Reaver jetbikes would be really cool,

Aftermath can be calculated.

Dark humor is like food, not everyone gets it.  
   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







Thank you for your readership and your thoughtful remarks to help other players. I took the opportunity to have dinner with one of our local collaborators. We've already included some of your suggestions, wish to add more, and are simply considering the most user-friendly way to do so. I'll share my current thoughts so you can see the considerations we have to take into account.


Melee - I absolutely understand your point. It's not just 7th ed being the dakka edition, it's the Kill Team meta where every model operates independently; you kill 1 enemy but expose yourself to getting shot up. However, we want to avoid a sweeping generalisation because melee is useful in controlling objectives and, strangely enough, sometimes being in close combat is the safest place (as units can't fire into melee). Not debating the point as I agree with you, but give me a few days to have a measured response in the Tactica.


Relentless (and Specialists in general) - again, I agree, and I think it is a must-have for Heavy Weapons guys unless they're inside a Vehicle, to avoid getting sniped in the 1st turn. In addition to Relentless, I think I should add back a section on most useful Specialists. I used to count how many times a USR was used and I'll probably add Relentless and the other most-used skills as a section for the Tactica.


Rhinos - have gone in & out, in & out of the Tactica ever since we started these back in 6th ed. Our current thinking is that, though we see the value of this mobile pillbox, it's still over-costed UNLESS there was some sort of discount and/or benefit. As you may have seen, we particularly added the Blood Angels Assault Marine Jetpack swap for the Rhino; that discount and the Fast benefit make it JUST worth including as we're very frugal about add-ons. However, in the current meta I think the Rhino and maybe a few others ARE indeed worth highlighting.


Autocannon (and Heavy Weapons in general) - I agree. I too found it to be the best overall weapon for Kill Team (other options seem over-costed or not versatile enough, but not all armies can take Autocannons easily). The value of having Heavy Weapons at all really varies between codices (Space Marines don't need them, but I think IG does, so I added that in already). In previous versions of the Kill Team rules, Heavy Weapons were better as you could Split-Fire; I actually dominated using Heavy Bolter Scouts with the IF CT and, this may surprise you, Grot Tanks for Orks. For now, I think I'll treat Heavy Weapons on a case-by-case basis.


Tomb Blades - thanks for this suggestion, one of our collaborators is considering a Necron army. We want to test-drive a few units 1st, but I myself am betting you're right about Tomb Blades. But give us a chance to have a look 1st.


Really appreciate your feedback and support. As such, we want to take a moment to think how to best include those ideas in the Tactica.


---


For Dark Eldar, we do have a Dark Eldar army player but it doesn't get fielded often. I absolutely agree with you on Reaver Jetbikes.


There is 1 other unit that was particularly effective apparently: Mandrakes. Their skillset (Infiltrate, Stealth, Shrouded, Move Through Cover and Fleet) are optimal for Kill Team. However, it is their Baleblast ranged attack that makes them standout, really good against the Infantry you face in Kill Team even though they're probably less useful in larger games. The feedback I received was not to use them as assault units, but to infiltrate them deep into cover and just shoot fire at people. They are great at melee, but it's the issue we mentioned before, charging into the open and winning an assault only gets you shot up. Thus, they're actually used as a shooty Midfield unit, hopping from cover to cover towards the objective.


I'd like to play against this army a few more times before adding them to the Tactica, but after hearing about all this, I checked out their relatively low points cost and was very impressed.

   
Made in pl
Freaky Flayed One





Poland

Kommissar Waaaghrick,

sometimes being in close combat is the safest place


Totally true! A number of times I didn't want to kill enemy models so that my guys could stay in combat another round.

While in my games assault has never been a good strategy, it could be because of the habit of using very shooty lists, little terrain, or just little experience with running close combat kill teams.

I used to count how many times a USR was used and I'll probably add Relentless and the other most-used skills as a section for the Tactica


A great idea! It was some time looking through the available options before I and my friends were able to easily choose the good skills and avoid the bad ones.

it's still over-costed UNLESS there was some sort of discount and/or benefit


That's interesting! Many times I was playing against a long-range shooty list and I thought a Rhino was a must - I felt I got to get inside bolter range to do anything against my opponent, and running on foot ended up badly for my guys. But again, this may turn out differently because of tactics, terrain, or paper-rock-scissors effect with army lists.

I actually dominated using (...), this may surprise you, Grot Tanks for Orks


I had this idea of using a barrage of inaccurate Ork shots in one game in this edition, so maybe it's my kind of thinking, too! Unfortunately, back then I got eaten by Salamanders with their monstrous flamers.

Good luck with Necron tests!

1500 pts
500 pts
150 pts 
   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Glasgow, United Kingdom

Orks in Kill Team seem pretty iffy. I've had success with Shoota Boyz and Bikers, including a Biker Nob. I think that I got 10 Shoota Boyz (70), 4 normal Warbikers (72), and a Biker Nob with Powerklaw (53). The latter was a total beast - with 2 wounds and all the saves he is tough to put down, he can very quickly close into melee to destroy enemy vehicles with his Klaw, and his shooting isn't bad either. However, he is very expensive and you really are relying on age-old Ork strengths: lots of dudes, lots of inaccurate shooting, rushing into melee. I don't much fancy my chances against stuff like Eldar Jetbike lists with this.
   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







So much to say...but I'll keep this brief. The key point: I hope this guide is useful to you.

We did not consolidate our experiences to show we're the best players, master strategists, none of that. It's simply that Kill Team, being an excellent entry-level game for the 40k Hobby due to its lower model count, is also extremely complicated. It's a rocky road! Our wish is that our broken bodies filled in those pitfalls so that you may travel it more easily. We pwn'd each other, we pwn'd ourselves, we pwn'd false assumptions any of us had made, then wrote as much of it down as we could. Every time I edit that article, I check over everything, because 1 change affects everything else. It's a constant cycle of revision.

That said...I'm both happy and sad to say, we've kind of come to the end of this journey...for now.

This latest major edit we added some very important armies: Necrons, Skitarii, but probably most significantly, the NEW Space Marine codex.

The significance of this is that we now believe the updated and upgraded Space Marine Scouts are the most optimal unit for Kill Team despite its low cost. The other top tier unit is the Necron Jetbike known as Tomb Blades, whose wargear makes them excellent for Kill Team as well as being a hard counter to Space Marine Scouts. It's not just their statline or their weapons, but from playing their abilities are optimised for Kill Team conditions. It's a case of round peg, round hole, and it happens to be a Tungsten Round of awesome. We actually feel the meta is a little unbalanced now for Kill Team...until new codices come out.

We've even taken out units like Astra Militarum Veterans because they're about the same cost as Space Marine Scouts, but nowhere as optimal for Kill Team.

For those of you that kindly followed our progress, I want to thank you for walking down this path with us.

This is not farewell, but fare forward. Because, y'know, we'll probably be back at this after the Tau book comes out.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Long time lurker, just made an account to post this. Thank you very much for all your hard work. I've been following this tactics article for quite some time, maybe two years? Anyway, my circle of friends and I don't have the time to play full games of 40k, so kill team is pretty much all we do, along with space hulk and assassinorum. So having this amalgam of experience to refer to has been a blessing for us. I guess the reason I'm posting is just to say thanks. And it was very, very, useful... even though I still lose - because I suck. haha.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/20 01:49:06


 
   
Made in pt
Skillful Swordmaster




The Shadowlands of Nagarythe

Lovely article. Thank you so very much!

I will be very curious as to what your opinions are regarding Tau. I am initiating my nephew (A fishface lover) into 40k through Kill Team, so would like to know your thoughts on them.

"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws." http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/

 
   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







Thanks very much for reading our guide and using it to introduce new players to The Hobby.

Let me get back to you on the Tau. One of our players has lots of experience dealing with Tau and I want to speak to him 1st before posting.

   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







Some quick notes regarding Tau. Please note, this is for the current codex (6th ed) that's already out, not the one that's coming out soon (7th ed). When that's available, we'll probably post a permanent entry in the article.

There is 1 special rule of particular noteworthiness, and 2 units we think are standout:

Supporting Fire - this awesome Overwatch-related rule is particularly impressive in the Kill Team RAW where every model operates as a unit. In larger games, this translates into maybe 1 squad joining another unit in firing Overwatch. In Kill Team, you may well have 3 or 4 (or more) units all shooting at 1 charging model. I've played enough games with and against Assault-oriented Kill Teams to know a lot of times they get spread out (due to terrain considerations) to take advantage of this.

Fire Warriors - they're like mini-Snipers, as their S5 gun is very effective against most Infantry units and even the light vehicles you face in Kill Team. Then their 30" range does make a difference. I played a lot with Sternguard for awhile and found that extra range makes a significance difference, especially with Rapid Fire. Combine those benefits with the Supporting Fire rule, makes them pretty good. Please note you can still be outdone by Marine Sniper Scouts (another instance showing how Marine Scouts unbalance Kill Team now) in this regard.

Kroot - seldom used in larger games, Kroot are a very interesting for Kill Team. Very cheap Infiltrating units. Don't treat them as a dedicated close combat unit; treat them as cheap Infiltrators that simply unafraid of Assault. You probably don't even need to upgrade to Sniper Rounds for Kill Team. I don't know if your nephew is interested in Kroot as what usually attracts players to Tau are their mecha suits, but Kroot are really adept for Kill Team conditions due to their low cost and how Infiltrators generally do really well (which is what makes them competitive against Marine Scouts, this is an interesting unit).

Other units were discussed, in particular, a minimum frills XV8 Crisis Suit with just a Flamer, Stealth Suits, the Piranha, Pathfinder, Drones (this one we looked at for a long time as they DO count towards your overall model count). While interesting, particularly the XV8 with only a Flamer, we feel that the basic Troops of Fire Warriors and Kroot are actually much more impressive for Kill Team. It's really a points-cost/benefit ratio thing there. To do a quick checklist:

Anti-Horde: aim for 21+ models, with good use of Supporting Fire you should be fine

Anti-Vehicle: keeping in mind Kill Team only allows lightly armoured vehicles, pulse rifles should be fine

Fear Itself: most Tau units only have Ld 7, this is actually a concern, thus another reason for 21+ models

My approach towards a Tau Kill Team would involve probably a mix of 10 Fire Warriors and 18 Kroot probably. I'm honestly wondering why I hadn't made this Kill Team myself now. I'll wait until the new Codex to seriously consider this as maybe a side project.

Thx a lot for asking about this. We just never got around to testing Tau and by the time we did, there were rumours of a new Codex so we kept putting it off, but it's clear it's time to look at this.

   
Made in pt
Skillful Swordmaster




The Shadowlands of Nagarythe

Thank you very much for the insight

We've only played one very loose kill team match so far - it was a strictly "shooting only" match for him to consolidate those rules - and he's used a unit of 8/9 carbine pathfinders + gun drone vs 5 bolter grunts + rhino so he could start shooting at vehicles as well.

I lost, of course .

I bought him a Piranha a month ago but he hasn't started on it yet (He's a big rugby fan so we spend time watching the world cup matches lately) and that will be the next addition to his kill team so he can start getting into moving vehicles himself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/23 07:08:42


"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws." http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Hey everyone, got a info dump for you (3 games), a question, and a quick clarification. Feel free to skip the info dump.

//INFO DUMP COMMENCE

My friends and I played a trio of kill team games (one according to the rules, 2 house ruled) the other week. My friend ran a team of 3 battlesuits and 4 or 5 pathfinders. I ran 7 scouts, 5 tacs in a rhino, one infiltrating heavy bolter on the scout squad and one on the tac squad, IMP fists CT. Those 2 heavy bolter marines were game changing as they could essentially fire across the entire battlefield from their point of vantage. I my scouts and tacs had very limited success, only killing one or two pathfinders and causing one Battlesuit wound, while the heavy bolters did everything else.

GAME 2 was not according to traditional KT rules. We played a 2 v 1 which was my other friend's 20ish blood letters against 110 points of BA sternguard (mine), and 110 ish points of grey knight melee dudes (my friend's). The tradeoff was we let my friend use KDK summons, the short of it was the moment we killed 8 bloodletters, he summoned a bloodthirster and had it come in on the flank - (we made him play skarbrand since it can't fly and is arguably shittier than a new bloodthirster, and rationalized it by saying a group of cultists were playing twister or something off board, and Khorne was like, "BE OF USE MEATBAGS"), and everything went hilariously bad for us, he tabled my friend, while the remaining bloodletters managed to catch my sternguard and kill them.

Final game was skarbrand alone from the start against our combined forces (also for fun), took 5 turns of kiting and hellfire rounds, but we killed it, the GK were essentially punching bag bodies to stall. Hellfire could be worth its weight in gold if there's high T in play.

// INFO DUMP END

My question is, could 17 scouts have conceivably done the job better than a hodgepodge rhino/tac/scout team? What are your thoughts on making a list with a mix of the things you recommended rather than purely one thing? Does it add versatility or just bloat?

And my one clarification I'd like to check is, on your article you recommend a flesh hound team. And I was wondering why my friend ran bloodletters instead of flesh hounds. Turns out there is a requirement to have leaders, and specialists to play a match. And there's a caveat that those cannot be beasts, and flesh hounds are beasts. So he was saying he couldn't actually run a flesh hound team legally, is that right?

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Bloomington, IL

Played a mass Kill Team event last Monday. Was essentially 4 space marine players vs my Tau and a Necron player. Fair number of bikes, two transports, and a ton of assault and tac marines for 4 marines (1 ultramarine, 1 salamanders, 1 imperial fists, and 1 iron hands).

I brought 11 firewarriors, and three Crisis Suits (1 with a MP and 2 with a BC each). MP suit was leader, BC 1 was FNP, BC 2 was Rending, and a FW had nightfighting. They did rather well, wiping out the Ultramarines player (10 tacs, multimelta, plasmagun + Rhino) and about 60% of the Salamanders (tacs and assault marines) and one or two other marines from the other armies as I recall. I found the CS with BC lays down enough fire to effectively kill 1 marine a turn, while being hardy enough to survive any incoming bolter fire.

The Necrons player brought 4 tombblades and a Triarch Stalker. We all called cheese because it has quantum shielding and he claimed that because of that it doesn't violate the "no armor total higher than 33." We disagreed. It didn't do much mostly because he wasn't very aggressive with it, plus because he and I were both fighting twice our points in Space Marines (until the Salamander's assault marines assaulted his Stalker, and I had the remainder of the Iron Hands and Imperial Fists armies thrown at me), but he still took about 50% of the Imperial Fists out (Rhino + 5 man tac) and one or two Iron Hands tacs.

So, long story short, do you think the Triarch Stalker is allowable in Kill Team?
   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







Sorry for the late reply, really appreciate the Dakka community's latest posts. Getting late here, so will keep reply short, but am grateful.

Long story short - you're right about everything. These were some of the questions we ourselves drilled into, our consensus matched your interpretations, as well as tactics/strategies.


Volition wrote:My question is, could 17 scouts have conceivably done the job better than a hodgepodge rhino/tac/scout team? What are your thoughts on making a list with a mix of the things you recommended rather than purely one thing? Does it add versatility or just bloat?



Focus on spamming 1 unit type or hedge with more diversity? The eternal question. This is further complicated by Kill Team rules where you only have 200 points to play with. We constantly debate this issue with the Kill Team meta in mind. Our consensus is to have at least a little bit of diversity, either in unit types or at least how they're equipped.

So in the situation you described...I'd probably go with a mixture of Scouts with a Heavy Bolter, but then also a mix of Sniper Rifles and maybe Bolters or even Knife & Bolt Pistol, or at least 5 Tac Marines (I may or may not take the Rhino). What tipped me towards the diversity argument is that MSU are not punished in Kill Team like they are in larger games. By that, you know having only a 5-man squad is kinda risky in large games as they can be wiped out/made inert before they can deal any damage back? Well, in the 1-model units of Every Man For Himself, that's not an issue, so it allows for more diversity with less of the drawbacks.


Volition wrote:And my one clarification I'd like to check is, on your article you recommend a flesh hound team. And I was wondering why my friend ran bloodletters instead of flesh hounds. Turns out there is a requirement to have leaders, and specialists to play a match. And there's a caveat that those cannot be beasts, and flesh hounds are beasts. So he was saying he couldn't actually run a flesh hound team legally, is that right?



You are absolutely right. This was an oversight on my part (as now that you mentioned it one of my friends pointed this out, I just forgot to account for it). This is on me, I done goofed and I thank you for your and your friend's input, nice catch.

I fixed the article and I appreciate you and your friend pointing this out. Not just that, but I also really liked how he went with Bloodletters as they are our next immediate preference. My friend who mentioned it actually fielded a Flesh Hound + Bloodletters army for that reason, and IIRC he correctly assigned a Bloodletter to be the Leader (which he hid to deny my Victory Points, lol), but I think he mistakenly made his Flesh Hound Specialists STILL purely due to missing the fine print.

Btw, I apologise for any confusion that caused. Not many Beasts unit types in 40k, so this issue rarely came up, but now I remember that's why my friend took the Bloodletters.


vitae_drinker wrote:The Necrons player brought 4 tombblades and a Triarch Stalker. We all called cheese because it has quantum shielding and he claimed that because of that it doesn't violate the "no armor total higher than 33." We disagreed. It didn't do much mostly because he wasn't very aggressive with it, plus because he and I were both fighting twice our points in Space Marines (until the Salamander's assault marines assaulted his Stalker, and I had the remainder of the Iron Hands and Imperial Fists armies thrown at me), but he still took about 50% of the Imperial Fists out (Rhino + 5 man tac) and one or two Iron Hands tacs.

So, long story short, do you think the Triarch Stalker is allowable in Kill Team?



We had this debate ourselves. In our case, it was the Ghost Ark, which has the same AV value and that Quantum Shield doohickey.

Before I go into our interpretation, a disclaimer: we stick with Rules As Written largely because the exact wording of the rules as a "universal language" is important to conduct this worldwide discussion, so let's just use RAW, but we also play with a Win At All Costs attitude for THIS guide (like we would begin a game saying, "This is for the Article" to give the other party a heads up). So this is a hardline, tough, non-gentlemanly, non-sportsman interpretation. Ready? Here we go:

Until an official FAQ tells us otherwise, we believe the Quantum Shielding on Necron Vehicles DOES prohibit their use in Kill Team...but hear us out on why.

The key words are "combined" and "adding" the Armour Value points. It is a lump sum of a vehicle's Armour Value. The Quantum Shielding is an inherent part of the vehicle, thus becomes part of the lump sum. Thus, it is combined/added with the overall Armour Value, which exceeds the 33 AV threshold. That said...I totally understand this is one of the grey areas in the official Kill Team ruleset, IMHO the murkiest and most debatable one.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Bloomington, IL

Ghost Ark has 4 HP, though, so it violates the "no more than 3 HP" rule.

And we (meaning everyone but the Necron player) happen to agree with the Quantum Shielding prohibiting their vehicles from being used in Kill Team. AV 13 is too tough to bust in those types of games. But he is a WAAC kind of player, so I wasn't surprised he brought it.
   
Made in hk
Regular Dakkanaut







Hi all, just a quick post to let you know we're aware of the new Kill Team box set. There was a rumour before, but we didn't want to comment until we had actual facts. The facts:

The new Kill Team is based on the existing Kill Team, but with more clarifications and options for Leaders and Specialists, as well as Vehicles and mobile objectives, even things like games for MORE than 2 players, including a Horde mode where players can play cooperatively against a horde. There will be a general Starter Set of Space Marines vs. Tau, and rulebooks, etc. Furthermore, there are a bunch of army-specific sets of pre-made Kill Teams around the 200 points range.

We have the PDFs of these army-specific pre-made Kill Teams. At 1st glance, they LOOK like they have special formation rules like, say, those formation sets or Start Collecting sets, BUT upon closer inspection, they look like they're simply using a core set of Kill Team rules. Take a look for yourself and see what I mean. Basically, some of GW Studios' designers made their own Kill Teams, which they're packaging together as introductory level products, discount bundles.

Have a look at these samples, fresh off the press:

Tempestus Scions: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Datasheets//Strike_Pack_Alphic.pdf

Orks: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Datasheets//Snagrods_Burna_Boyz.pdf

Harlequins: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Datasheets//Red_Death_of_Duriel.pdf

Necrons: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Datasheets//Pariah_Conflux.pdf

Dark Mechanicus: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Datasheets//Corruptio_Malum.pdf

You can probably already gleam some new Specialist rules that were unavailable before, which we believe suggest there's just a bunch of new options.

In addition to this, the new Deathwatch Codex does present some really good options. Moreover, we've been meaning to add a Tau entry (by pure serendipity that's actually a faction in the new Starter Set, what luck). Very interesting times ahead, really looking forward to what we'll find in the new ruleset. Really, really pleased by this news

   
 
Forum Index » Article Discussion
Go to: