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Dakka's wisdom is required once again!

I had this idea and can not find anything in the rulebook that prohibits me from using it. Am i wrong or is it against the rules?
Here we go:

My primary detachment is SM, a Grey Knight Nemesis Strike Force detachment and a Blood Angels allied detachment.
I choose a Terminator Squad as troops from the Nemesis Strike Force and a Sanguinary Priest as HQ from the Blood Angels.
The Priest has a jump pack or the Angel's Wing relic that give him the Jump and therefore the Deep Strike rule.
Before the game begins the Priest joins the Grey Knight Terminators as independent character.
At the start of turn 1, using the nemesis special rule, i can roll for the termie unit to deep strike along with the priest.

Right or wrong?

Thanks!

If you look on the NSF detachment and show where the Blood Angels Sanguinary priest is a member of that detachment, to benefit from a rule that affects units from that detachment

you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

detachment/formation special rules are only given out before deployment to models in the pertinent detachment, so a model outside of the detachment never gets this special rule.

you can join the sang priest to the detachment, but it does not have the special rule.

it counts as a member of the unit for rules purposes.

but it does not count as a member of a different detachment then its own, ever.

as such it cannot be a unit in a different detachment.

it does not have the special rule itself to DS turn 1.

and as per ICs and special rules the special rule has to state it extends to every model in an unit if at least one model has it, as per stealth etc, which this special rule does not.

therefore the answer is no.

Yes. It is either Right or Wrong. However we don't know which.

While attached to the unit the Priest counts as a member of the GK squad for all rules purposes (and this is a rules purpose). As such, despite being from a different detachment, and having different special rules, the unit is still a Grey Knights unit and per the wording of Nemesis Strike Force, it benefits.

Contrary to the belief of the opposing side, I am not claiming that the Priest somehow switches detachments.

The inclusion of 'in this detachment' after the word units in the rule is what prevents it. Yes the sang priest counts as a model in the unit, no the sang priest does not get the special rule as it was not a model in the NSF detachment prior to deployment, and no the sang priest does not count as being in the NSF detachment ever.

If the rule just said units it would be a yes, that it has in this detachment adds the extra qualifier that it has to be in the unit and in that, the NSF detachment, wNicholas the sang priest is obviously not.

The unit is still a unit in the detachment, something Blaktoof will deny but, as ever, has no rules to show this.

Many pages of waffle will ensue, with the same result : RAW it is entirely legitimate.

Now cue Blaktoof claiming that our argument requires that the IC switches detachment, again...

The Terminator unit is from the NSF Detachment correct?
The Sanguinary Priest is part of the Terminator unit, correct?

Therefore the Terminator unit with attached Priest is a unit from the NSF detachment.

 Happyjew wrote:
The Terminator unit is from the NSF Detachment correct?
The Sanguinary Priest is part of the Terminator unit, correct?

Therefore the Terminator unit with attached Priest is a unit from the NSF detachment.

Quoted for truth.

Again, many pages where Blaktoof ignores this, until mod lock.

To OP : please ignore Blaktoof on this,as it is one of many topics they've been shown to have a blind spot on the actual rules and even the actual arguments. That is a massive inability to understand the difference between model and unit.

The Terminator unit is from the NSF Detachment correct?
The Sanguinary Priest is part of the Terminator unit, correct?

Therefore the Terminator unit with attached Priest is a unit from the NSF detachment.

which detachment is the sang priest in?

the special rule states unit in this detachment.

cannot discuss the rule without discussing the detachments the models in the unit are in.


if you attached a model from one detachment to another detachment, the model you attached is a member of the unit, but is not a unit from that detachment.

the members of the unit contain models from the detachment [nsf] but also contain models from not the nsf detachment [sang priest]

the special rule, does not state it extends to all models in the unit if one model has it, or if a model in the unit has this special rule then the unit may xx, which is required by the RAW to have the attached IC benefit from the units special rule, which the IC does not gain from joining the unit as per the RAW.

However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment
Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

Obviously the detachment rule for "units in this detachment" which is given to units in the NSF detachment occurs before the sang priest can join, as it happens prior to deployment. further the above quote also shows that the sang priest is clearly a unit in its detachment, and the units in the NSF detachment are clearly units in the NSF detachment.

Units are made of models, and obviously we have permission to join certain units together during deployment, and during the game. However as stated units are made of models. So we have a unit of 10 strike squad peoples from a NSF detachment, and a unit of 1 sang priest from a CAD, and we join them they have a mixture of special rules. Some the IC has, some the unit has, some they may share [ATSKNF].

Units are made up of models, and although no unit when you make you army list can belong to more than one detachment, and you say which unit is part of which detachment [as the above quoted rules show plainly]... you can still join units on the table together. In such a case the models count as being in an unit, but they do not gain each others unit name entries, detachment, unit identities, profiles, wargear, special rules, etc unless it specifically states they do for each specific entry. Obviously a HQ from a cad that joins a strike squad does not gain faction grey knights, the profile of the strike squad members, the special rules of the strike squad members, the battlefield role of the strike squad members, or the detachment of the strikesquad members. Anyone claiming otherwise is actually making completely fabricated and ludicrous claims.

additionally as units are made up of models, during after deployment when you have told your opponent which units belong to which detachment, you can join units from different detachments together, and have a unit that has models from different detachments in the unit. This is fine as the unit entry names are still the unit entry names from the datasheets and the detachments they are in, has not changed. However they do not gain or lose any form of identity, an unit of 10 strike squad members from detachment x joined by an IC from detachment Y is a unit with 10 models from detachment x, and 1 model from detachment y. It is not a unit from detachment x, and it is not a unit from detachment y because a unit is made of models and the unit has models from both. If it has a special detachment rule from either X or Y that specifically states it may extend to the entire unit if one model has it, e.g. stuborrn, stealth, then it may do so, but otherwise the special rules that affect detachment X only affect the models from detachment X, and the same with anything regarding detachment Y. as per the RAW in the rulebook.

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

obviously as quoted many times the teleportation rites rule is not granted to the IC that joins the unit, referring to above we see that as the IC does not have the special rule even when joined to a unit from a NSF detachment the rule itself has to specifically state that it special rule confers. Which rites of teleportation obviously does not state.


while it is nice that some people feel the need to post personal attacks, and things with no actual rules support, or in some cases not even discuss the rules, you will find it difficult to have a discussion about the stance with anyone you are playing with or a TO with useless comments that have no rules support.

blaktoof wrote:

The Terminator unit is from the NSF Detachment correct?
The Sanguinary Priest is part of the Terminator unit, correct?

Therefore the Terminator unit with attached Priest is a unit from the NSF detachment.

which detachment is the sang priest in?

The model or the unit?

The unit (which temporarily ceases to exist when an IC joins a unit) is part of the Blood Angels detachment.

The model (which as an IC can jump from unit to unit) is (currently) part of the NSF detachment.

The model (which as an IC can jump from unit to unit) is (currently) part of the NSF detachment.

-Happyjew

Contrary to the belief of the opposing side, I am not claiming that the Priest somehow switches detachments.

-Happyjew

Those two statements are in direct conflict.

regardless you can share where it specifically allows you to switch the detachment type the sang priest is in? Or where models can change detachments after 'prior to deployment' which is the only time they are put into detachments?

Edit- FWIW the BAO format Faq v1.2 has updated to allow an unit from the NSF that is not an IC to still benefit from rites of teleportation if an outside IC joins it, but an IC from the NSF cannot benefit from it if it joins another unit.

They also have faqed things like ICs and infiltrate that go against specific RAW so although some tournaments might okay it, it doesn't mean its the actual rules.

as such This is a house rule, but most tournaments will probably use it as many use the BAO format.

"When an independent character joins a unit, he is considered to be part of that unit for all rules purposes"

So from here forward anytime a rule has an effect on a "unit" then any independent character in that unit will be under the effect of the rule. So if the rule states that all "units" from the NSF detachment can deep strike, then he is included and considered to be part of that unit for that rules purpose.

If the deep strike rule said "All models from the NSF Detachment" then the sanguinary priest would not be allowed to perform that special action.

No blaktoof, theyre not in direct conflict at all.

Is the NSF unit a member of the NSF detachment? Yes or No
When you join the BA IC to it, is the NSF unit still from that detachment? Yes or No

If you state "no", please show allowance to treat the unit as not being from that detachment any l onger (page and graph, for once in these threads) and also what detahcment the unit is now a member of (as it MUST be a member of a detachment)

Your unit and model blindness is very odd.

I really don't see the Black and White of this as you all do.

I'm basing myself on this reasoning by Nem, which is my conclusions on this:

How can you be certain that "part of that unit for all rules purposes" covers his adherence to a selected Detachment, as we know (again is this a certainty?) that the model cannot switch Detachments?

It will stay in the Gray area until specifically addressed in an FAQ (which is when the pigs will start to look at the skies in earnest)

Its more that we have no rule stating the unit, as a whole, changes detachment.

As such the uniut, as a whole, is still a NSF unit. It cannot change detachments.

It is nothing to do really with the IC rule - just the rule for units and detachments.

The NSF unit is still an NSF unit, regardless of what ICs join. As such it has access to this rule

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its more that we have no rule stating the unit, as a whole, changes detachment.

As such the uniut, as a whole, is still a NSF unit. It cannot change detachments.

It is nothing to do really with the IC rule - just the rule for units and detachments.

The NSF unit is still an NSF unit, regardless of what ICs join. As such it has access to this rule

But the discussion is around how the Sanguinary priest gets access to this rule, and i can easily understand how he's in the Unit, and "part of that unit for all rules purposes". But IMHO it's not that simple, per the reasons above.
In Unit X, you have models from Detachment A and a model from Detachment B. Sure, the Unit is of Detachment A, but can models from Detachment B benefit from rules given to Detachment A?

Right/Wrong? No idea, but quite certainly not clear cut.

In the general case, the answer is "maybe"

In this case, the answer is YES - because the detachment level rule states it applies to all *units* within the NSF detachment

This unit IS an NSF detachment - we know this for the reasons outlined. The unit is not stated to changed detachment, so it cannot do so. It MUST be in a detachment, so the answer cannot be that it is now not part of any detachment - that is another nonsense. So the only choice you have left is that the *unit* is a member of the NSF detachment, and remains so regardless of ICs joining it.

It is that clear cut in this case. I agree, the general case is ambiguous - because it has to be.

I meant along the lines of:
"or any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike
Reserve" & "all units from this Detachment can both"

Of which the second applies when "they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve".

This applies to all *units* within the NSF detachment. But the argument is then that "part of that unit for all rules purposes" grants these rules to the IC. But does it?

The IC is still forever part of another Detachment (Yes, on the Model level and not *Unit* level), but the ambiguity pointed out by Nem on the "part of that unit for all rules purposes" is what really gets me when applying these "Detachment Only" -type rules.

The *unit* is rolling to arrive from DS reserves, and the *unit* is - proven - from the NSF detachment

Your issue here is not clear - ambiguous even

Termies plus JP IC= unit from NSF detachment; that was
Placed in DS reserves; and as such
The unit can arrive using the rule

The model level is irrelevant. The only thing important is whether the unt is still a NSF unit. This is a YES.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I meant along the lines of:
"or any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike
Reserve" & "all units from this Detachment can both"

Of which the second applies when "they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve".

This applies to all *units* within the NSF detachment. But the argument is then that "part of that unit for all rules purposes" grants these rules to the IC. But does it?

The IC is still forever part of another Detachment (Yes, on the Model level and not *Unit* level), but the ambiguity pointed out by Nem on the "part of that unit for all rules purposes" is what really gets me when applying these "Detachment Only" -type rules.

The IC isn't granted the rule. The unit has the rule. Nothing says that the rule only applies to units that are 100% models from the NSF detachment - just units from the NSF detachment.

Saying that a unit with an attached IC cannot benefit from its detachment rule has no basis in actual rules - because no one has been able to cite a rule saying that. It's just been red herrings like "HE CAN'T CHANGE DETACHMENTS" (no one has said that he does).

I never assumed that the Unit with NSF cannot benefit if an IC is attached, I just question the IC's ability to benefit or be able to use the rule.

In essence this would mean:
Termies plus JP IC = unit from NSF detachment. The Unit may arrive by DS Turn 1, and the IC, having joined the Unit must tag along. (He is pulled by the NSF rule - but i would disagree he "has" that rule)

When landed, the Unit has permission to Shoot and Run, so the Termies can Shoot and Run. But allowing the IC to Shoot and Run, is using the NSF rule on the IC, who, by not being Grey Knights or part of the detachment, should not have access to said rule.

Now i could expand on the reasoning, such as:
NSF Units have the rule upon Army building.
IC joins during deployment.
The NSF rules working "like Infiltrate": rule is provided before the IC was joined.

or

Rule only applies on a model per model basis to Units within the NSF detachment, skipping the IC as he is Detachment X.

But these are just arbitrary ideas with no RAW. They just stem from the original issue i pointed out in my first post:

How can you be certain that "part of that unit for all rules purposes" covers his adherence to a selected Detachment, as we know (again is this a certainty?) that the model cannot switch Detachments?

I get the method, and the RaW interpretation, i'm just saying that it might not be 100% fool-proof. (Also due to the amount of threads on it)

You guys keep skipping the rule that makes this all work, the Combined Units rule. You roll once for a Combined Unit to arrive from Reserves, which includes any attached ICs as well as an embarked upon vehicle. This means a SM Stormraven with embarked GK Purifiers and a BA Librarian Dreadnought roll a single die to arrive from reserves together, and a unit of GKT + JP IC roll one die to arrive from DS reserves together. Because Rites of Teleportation allows the GKT squad to roll turn 1, only specifies arriving from DS reserves, and the JP IC is attached, the Combined Unit of GKT + JP IC legally rolls to arrive on turn 1.

This is the same exact argument for GK Purifiers embarked on SW or BA Drop Pods. Nothing has changed, it is still a legal tactic per RAW.

SJ

while many posters here will at great length ignore the part " in this detachment"

yes the models are in an unit together, but the unit has models that are units from the NSF detachment, and models that are units from the other detachment that is not the NSF detachment and does not have the special rule allowing the model to teleport/ds turn 1.

as per the section on ICs and joining units with special rules, the IC does not benefit from the special rule the unit has unless it specifcally states it extends to all models in the unit. Does rites of teleportation state that? Nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You guys keep skipping the rule that makes this all work, the Combined Units rule. You roll once for a Combined Unit to arrive from Reserves, which includes any attached ICs as well as an embarked upon vehicle. This means a SM Stormraven with embarked GK Purifiers and a BA Librarian Dreadnought roll a single die to arrive from reserves together, and a unit of GKT + JP IC roll one die to arrive from DS reserves together. Because Rites of Teleportation allows the GKT squad to roll turn 1, only specifies arriving from DS reserves, and the JP IC is attached, the Combined Unit of GKT + JP IC legally rolls to arrive on turn 1.

This is the same exact argument for GK Purifiers embarked on SW or BA Drop Pods. Nothing has changed, it is still a legal tactic per RAW.

SJ

you roll once for a combined unit to arrive from reserve, but only part of the combined unit has a special rule that gives permission to roll turn 1 is the issue.

as per the section on special rules and attached ICs the attached IC does not have permission to use rites of teleportation.

and it is not the same argument as a drop pod in any form.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I never assumed that the Unit with NSF cannot benefit if an IC is attached, I just question the IC's ability to benefit or be able to use the rule.

Fortunately, models don't roll for Reserves. Units do. Are you denying the NSF unit the ability to arrive from Reserves? (Yes, your argument does by denying a model.) Why? What rule?

In essence this would mean:
Termies plus JP IC = unit from NSF detachment. The Unit may arrive by DS Turn 1, and the IC, having joined the Unit must tag along. (He is pulled by the NSF rule - but i would disagree he "has" that rule)

I agree with you.

When landed, the Unit has permission to Shoot and Run, so the Termies can Shoot and Run. But allowing the IC to Shoot and Run, is using the NSF rule on the IC, who, by not being Grey Knights or part of the detachment, should not have access to said rule.

Not sure how this part of the NSF rule is worded.

But these are just arbitrary ideas with no RAW. They just stem from the original issue i pointed out in my first post:

So you're not arguing RAW then?

How can you be certain that "part of that unit for all rules purposes" covers his adherence to a selected Detachment, as we know (again is this a certainty?) that the model cannot switch Detachments?

I get the method, and the RaW interpretation, i'm just saying that it might not be 100% fool-proof. (Also due to the amount of threads on it)

Jesus... Here, maybe this will get the point across...
HIS DETACHMENT MEMBERSHIP IS IRRELEVANT. There - catch it that time?

The unit benefits form a rule. He's a member of the unit for all rules purposes. You're attempting to exempt him from a benefit. Cite a rule allowing you to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
while many posters here will at great length ignore the part " in this detachment"

No one's ignoring it. Still. It's just still not harmful to the argument. You continue to chase a strawman.

yes the models are in an unit together, but the unit has models that are units from the NSF detachment, and models that are units from the other detachment that is not the NSF detachment and does not have the special rule allowing the model to teleport/ds turn 1.

Not relevant. The unit in the NSF detachment benefits from a special rule. Agreed? (I hope so)
Does the IC joining the unit change the fact that the unit is from the NSF detachment? No. Agreed? (I hope so - units can't change detachments).
Do you have a rule stating that a single model in a unit that isn't from an NSF detachment makes the "NSF unit" no longer able to benefit from the NSF rule? No. Agreed? (I hope so - you'd have provided it by now)

as per the section on ICs and joining units with special rules, the IC does not benefit from the special rule the unit has unless it specifcally states it extends to all models in the unit. Does rites of teleportation state that? Nope.

Perhaps instead of paraphrasing to make your point, you could use the actual rule? You know, the one that never mentions the word "benefit"? I'm sure it was just a mistake and not your attempt to mislead the reader.

Not one time has anyone ever said the rule is conferred to the IC. Ever. You've made that up.

If an IC with Shrouded joins a unit, the Shrouded rule does not confer to the unit. But the entire unit benefits from a cover save 2 better than normal.

as per the section on special rules and attached ICs the attached IC does not have permission to use rites of teleportation.

Again, a misquote of the actual rules. Please use actual rules in your argument.

the entire unit benefits from shrouded because the special rule -specifies- that it extends to the unit if at least one model contains it. Which is required for an attached IC to use any special rule the unit has.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover save as being 2 points better than normal.

- shrouding

rites of teleportation, a special rule, has no such wording.

please use actual rules in your argument, and not misquoted cherry picked lines to create a non relevant point of discussion.

blaktoof wrote:
the entire unit benefits from shrouded because the special rule -specifies- that it extends to the unit if at least one model contains it. Which is required for an attached IC to use any special rule the unit has.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover save as being 2 points better than normal.

- shrouding

rites of teleportation, a special rule, has no such wording.

please use actual rules in your argument, and not misquoted cherry picked lines to create a non relevant point of discussion.

So you missed my point - that's fine.

So let's look at the Stubborn rule.

So any time that phrase - "at least one model" - exists, the rule is conferred. Cool.

Now, does that mean that any time it doesn't exist the IC cannot benefit? From Fleet:

Hmmm

Ummm...

So there's wording that exists to make sure everyone in the unit is able to do the thing. Does the NSF rule have that? Nope.

So first you incorrectly worded the IC rule to prove your point, now you're inventing words to prove your point?

yet again you failed to read my post, as well as the rules you even quoted.

cool.

it does not matter what DS and Fleet state.

it matters what the rule you are trying to use states.

because, as you quoted...

Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

it still has to be specified in the rule itself that it extends to all models in the unit if one model or any model has it.

does rites of teleporation SPECIFY that in the rule itself?

so per the RAW, which you even quoted, the 'rites of teleportation rule' has to specify it.

so does DS and Fleet FWIW, as they do not those rules also do not extend to an IC as per the RAW, the wording in the rules for DS and Fleet are unnecessary and redundant.

blaktoof wrote:
yet again you failed to read my post, as well as the rules you even quoted.

cool.

it does not matter what DS and Fleet state.

it matters what the rule you are trying to use states.

because, as you quoted...

Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

it still has to be specified in the rule itself that it extends to all models in the unit if one model or any model has it.

does rites of teleporation SPECIFY that in the rule itself?

so per the RAW, which you even quoted, the 'rites of teleportation rule' has to specify it.

so does DS and Fleet FWIW, as they do not those rules also do not extend to an IC as per the RAW, the wording in the rules for DS and Fleet are unnecessary and redundant.

Use proper quotes - the IC rule says that the special rule doesn't confer on the IC, not that the IC cannot benefit. You've asserted the underlined and have failed to prove it.
I've never said that the rule is conferred to the IC. Ever. Please pick something to argue that I've actually said instead of making things up.

models gain the benefit of special rules they have.

the IC attached does not have the special rule.

and the special rule does not specify the unit can benefit from it if any model or at least one model has it.

nothing was made up, I am sorry you dislike your own quote.

and as pointed out earlier, in addition to the above you have still failed to provide any quotes for how a model counts as being in a different detachment for the purposes of "units in this detachment"

for example a NSF IC joins an unit from a blood angels, cad. the NSF IC has the rites of teleportation rule, the unit does not. Together they are one unit made up of models from different units on two different detachments. One has permission to use rites of teleporation, the rest of the unit does not.

for example a NSF IC joins an IC from a blood angels CAD, together they are two ICs joined into one unit. One is a model from one detachment, the other is a model from another detachment, one has a special rule that the other does not. It allows units from the NSF detachment to DS turn 1, the other model in the unit which is a unit entry from another detachment does not have the same rule.

in all three scenarios the unit has models that do not have the ability to DS turn 1, despite the unit potentially having the ability to DS. The rule in question does not confer nor list it benefits the unit if any model or at least one model has it.

blaktoof wrote:
models gain the benefit of ONLY special rules they have.

the IC attached does not have the special rule.

and the special rule does not specify the unit can benefit from it if any model or at least one model has it.

nothing was made up, I am sorry you dislike your own quote.

I've added the word your argument requires.
Please cite the rule stating this.

and as pointed out earlier, in addition to the above you have still failed to provide any quotes for how a model counts as being in a different detachment for the purposes of "units in this detachment"

I've never said that it does. So I refuse to quote a rule for something I've never asserted.

for example a NSF IC joins an unit from a blood angels, cad. the NSF IC has the rites of teleportation rule, the unit does not. Together they are one unit made up of models from different units on two different detachments. One has permission to use rites of teleporation, the rest of the unit does not.

Incorrect. The NSF IC, once joined to a Blood Angels unit, is no longer a unit from the NSF detachment.

for example a NSF IC joins an IC from a blood angels CAD, together they are two ICs joined into one unit. One is a model from one detachment, the other is a model from another detachment, one has a special rule that the other does not. It allows units from the NSF detachment to DS turn 1, the other model in the unit which is a unit entry from another detachment does not have the same rule.

Incorrect again for the same reason. Getting rules right is important in a rules discussion.

in all three scenarios the unit has models that do not have the ability to DS turn 1, despite the unit potentially having the ability to DS. The rule in question does not confer nor list it benefits the unit if any model or at least one model has it.

a) Conferring is exactly how the entire unit benefits if one model does. It says as much in the IC rule I've quoted. What you're saying is that the unit can only benefit if the rule confers and you've supported that assertion with exactly zero rules quotes.
b) You're correct that your two recent examples the units cannot benefit from the RoT, but you are incorrect as to the reason why.

you want someone to cite where models gain the benefit of special rules they have?

cite where it shows you gain the benefit of special rules you don't have.

its a permissive rules set, you have to actually show how a model is benefiting from a rule it does not have, that does not state it benefits models in the unit if at least one model has it.

of course you cannot because you are completely incorrect.