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3rd parties making counter feits, and a player base that encourages it.
So you're asserting GW's prices are due to making their customers pay for their legal battles? You really are adorable.
and have not grown SO huge that the playerbase is just impossible to please...
GW are really not as big as you like to think they are.
a 1000000 person player base will never, ever agree, and will always be fragmented to some degree, this is what 40k is, its like getting that many people to agree on the best topping for pizza.
Well, duh. Humans are not some kind of hive mind conglomerate.
a 1000 person player base a la WMH or other games, is much easier to keep coherant for many reason.
Now you're just pulling numbers out your backside. If you think WMH has 1000ish players globally then I don't know what to say. Well, I do but it would probably earn me a holiday from Dakka.
Id swear, the first rule of warmahordes is "you must bash 40k"
It's really not. But keep telling yourself that if it makes you able to sleep at night.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2014/07/23 19:28:06
Subject: Re:Do you really think GW is "going under"?
easysauce wrote: privateer press charges me 17-19 per model... (star wars atack wing)
GW charges me 10$ on average...
what was that about GW price gouging again?
Then look at the numbers I posted a few posts ago. Wouldn't you say that costing 5-10 times more than the competitor (and I'm not even exaggerating) a tad bit ridiculous in terms of pricing?
The customer doesn't care if you have shops, or counterfeiters, or whatever legal problems you have with 3rd party sources. When I buy bread, I don't care if the bread company is having financial problems due to lack of eggs. And even if I do care, that doesn't warrant a 500%-1000% increase in price. Because that is stupid.
The customer cares about the the value they're getting with the price that they're paying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/23 19:28:29
Alpharius wrote: I apologize in advance for asking a question which has probably already been asked and answered but...
...when is the next official GW report due?
It is soon, isn't it?
And won't that help 'answer' a lot of these questions?
Next week some time based on previous years.
Whether it answers any questions or not depends what it says
If the Knight + 7th Ed blow the doors off* you'll have the pro-no-problem crowd saying everything was a blip and the anti-no-problem crowd saying launching two flagship products just disguises an underlying decline in the business and by-the-way-didn't-the-market-grow-again.
*This being in the range of H2 revenue flat (so down YoY) to YoY being better in total than H1 all the way through to up YoY total.
Anything less than that and you'll get the pro-no-problem crowd saying one year is not a trend and the anti-no-problem crowd saying it proves their point.
To be fair, I don't think there is anyone in this thread claiming GW doesn't have any problems. I'm certainly not disillusioned enough to make a claim that baseless and contradictory to facts. GW has quite a few problems, declining customer base, rising prices preventing new players from filling the spots of those who quit, dwindling market share, and management that seems to forget just how they got all of us hooked in the first place. However, companies have survived worse positions than GW is in right now. 40k is still the number 1 tabletop war game out there and will remain that way for awhile. There are still plenty of places where almost everyone plays 40k/WFB and getting a game of x wing or hordes is nearly impossible. I think if the situation got too dire at GW, they would start dropping prices to turn things around. This could potentially bring a resurgence of new players to the game. Their business model of hiking prices to compensate for a decline in players cannot work forever. When they see this, they will either do something to right the ship or the stockholders will sell off a majority of shares to someone that can.
Sure, I guess "GW have major problems right now" and "GW have things that could become major problems in the future" might be a better description of the two schools of thought.
When you're a company in distress, dropping prices isn't a magic sponge that fixes everything. Leave it too late and all you do is bankrupt the business quicker.
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I think that people should stop trying to look into the future when they have no clue what's going to happen to GW. Companies don't have horizons more than five years and frankly none of us even know what GW has planned in that time. If GW is going under it shows NO real prospects of doing so at the moment, it is just showing a current lack of growth. This could change very easily due to any number of things.
People need to stop trying to predict more than 5 years into the future as you have no idea what will happen beyond then and it doesn't look like GW is going to collapse right now.
Sooooo, how do you explain the rapidly falling market share?
What is that if not a sign of GW going under?
What, by your definition would be anyway? It sounds like you're trying to say that no one can ever know if a company is going under.
Has Microsoft gone under? They were over $100 a share and now is what, $50 or under $30 a share? Is Apple going under? They were over $700 a share last year. What are they now? 1/2 that? So I guess Apple is going under and we will have no more iPads, iPhones and Macs next year or so.
The poster you quoted said "market share" not "share price".
And? Sticking to a strategy that is no longer viable is neither the customer's fault nor something they're likely to have any interest in paying for.
Or....if a company chooses a path that necessitates prices that make it uncompetitive in the market, the onus is on the company to change it's strategy, whether that be adjusting it's cost base or providing some other value-add service that bridges the value gap in the customer's perception, not just tell the customer to suck it up.
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch." Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
Kilkrazy wrote: Well the base fact is that codexes and army books doubled in price over the past three years.
This means bluntly that unless people are prepared to double their spend on the necessary books, they will buy fewer of them, possibly half as many..
Fewer than half, in at least some cases.
I bought every book that GW published during 2nd ed through to 5th. I bought 3 of the hardcover 6th ed codexes... and that was off eBay rather than new.
And I've encountered quite a lot of people in a similar situation, who went from buying every codex as it was released to only buying the books they actually need for their current armies.
The shops should pay for themselves. If GW normally sells to an indie retailer for 50% of retail (not sure what it actually is) then GW should be able to run their shops on the extra 50% revenue that they otherwise wouldn't have made if the sales had gone to the indie retailer. If the GW stores are unable to survive on that 50% additional revenue then that's GWs problem, not the consumer.
The shops might be a reason, but they're not an excuse.
Baragash wrote: When you're a company in distress, dropping prices isn't a magic sponge that fixes everything. Leave it too late and all you do is bankrupt the business quicker.
Couldn't agree with this statement more. At this point, the rate of customer loss even price drops won't fix. Customers won't magically flock back because GW suddenly comes to their senses. Once the barrier of trust has been broken with existing customers, causing them to go elsewhere, it is very, very hard to ever get them back.
Besides, GW has a lot more problems than just their pricing right now. They have some very serious competition nicking away at their company every month from a variety of companies (though they don't see any), their rules have become an absolute joke versus what their competition is putting out. Finally they have damaged channel relations so much that they are now stuck with this high cost, one man store, retail model.
GW is close to done, and the financials published sometime next week are only going to show how fast that time is going to come. They are obviously in the death spiral and there is no way in heck this management team is going to know how to pull out of it. As it is, it takes an extremely good CEO to save any company deep into the spiral (such as with Apple) and a serious come to reality session (such as with Nintendo) to admit you are going down the wrong path and to completely change course. The issue is, GWs management is far to arrogant and full of hubris to even begin to correct the situation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/23 20:27:48
Apparently talking about profit margins , which depend on cost of sale, and running shops, which increases your cost of sale, is a difficult connection to make?
Higher cost of sale means you need a higher price to get to the same margin.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
nosferatu1001 wrote: Its not unusual for restructuring companies to show little to no growth anyway, and GW has certainly been doing that. Restructuring takes effort away from business development activities, and the shock-effect amongst staff can give issues as well.
If in another year there are still issues thats more concerning.
If by restructuring you mean cutting everything they can cut then, yeah, GW has been restructuring.
Seriously, it's more than just cutting. They've restructured their logistics side as well, but don't let facts get in the way of a snarky comment...
Wayne - for what I thought were obvious reasons their profit margin on books isn't the same as other companies. Their logistics being higher is just one of them. But hey, just compare in a vacuum, best way to do so.
Games Workshop do not produce books by "A Strange Magick", they use Adobe InDesign or Quark Xpress and web offset litho the same as everyone else in the world.
If by "logistics being higher" you mean they only sell through their own loss-making retail outlets, I agree with you.
I fail to see why you and I and everyone else should pay double not to buy GW rulebooks on Amazon.
easysauce wrote: its like hearing call of duty players tell people gaming with minis is stupid,
look how much more balanced my call of duty game is, no gamers inch cheating, no random rolls, pure skill!
pure balance!
much MUCH cheaper then warmahordes too!
why would you play such a crappy game like WMH's when call of duty is OBS superior!
what?
He's saying a computer game is cheaper than any wargame, and more balanced. So his point appears to be that people who want good rules and a non-extortionate startup cost aren't real wargamers at all.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I think that people should stop trying to look into the future when they have no clue what's going to happen to GW. Companies don't have horizons more than five years and frankly none of us even know what GW has planned in that time. If GW is going under it shows NO real prospects of doing so at the moment, it is just showing a current lack of growth. This could change very easily due to any number of things.
People need to stop trying to predict more than 5 years into the future as you have no idea what will happen beyond then and it doesn't look like GW is going to collapse right now.
Sooooo, how do you explain the rapidly falling market share?
What is that if not a sign of GW going under?
What, by your definition would be anyway? It sounds like you're trying to say that no one can ever know if a company is going under.
Has Microsoft gone under? They were over $100 a share and now is what, $50 or under $30 a share? Is Apple going under? They were over $700 a share last year. What are they now? 1/2 that? So I guess Apple is going under and we will have no more iPads, iPhones and Macs next year or so.
Man, these threads always move so fast when I'm asleep. Makes it hard to keep up.
Anyway the point I was making had nothing to do with share price or stocks. I'm talking market share, as in the percentage of the market GW owns.
Here in Australia that is crumbling. It is now easier for me to get games of Warmachine, x wing, dystopian wars and kings of war than 40k or fantasy. 2nd edition Dystopian Wars of all things outsold 40k 7th ed 7 to 1 through one of our largest online retailers. FLGSs are thriving while GW stores seem to struggle to get people in the door.
Once upon a time GW appeared to have complete and total market share unless you looked at historical games. Now it would seem generous to give them even 50% here in oz. Those aren't hard numbers by any means but you can't argue that they haven't lost a huge amount of market share and that is a very big warning sign, especially if there is nothing to suggest they are growing rather than falling further.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
nosferatu1001 wrote: and? your quote snipping again dropped the context, which is that you cannot just compare like for like and say it has doubled in price "because", without including the contributing factors. Or at least those that GW attributed to the price rise.
Try to avoid snipping context out, makes your posts more coherent.
So what? Your assertion was that full-colour hardback was somehow a license to charge higher prices, yet we have examples of companies doing the exact opposite of that. Concede, or find a real reason to justify Codex costs.
nosferatu1001 wrote: and? your quote snipping again dropped the context, which is that you cannot just compare like for like and say it has doubled in price "because", without including the contributing factors. Or at least those that GW attributed to the price rise.
Try to avoid snipping context out, makes your posts more coherent.
So what? Your assertion was that full-colour hardback was somehow a license to charge higher prices, yet we have examples of companies doing the exact opposite of that. Concede, or find a real reason to justify Codex costs.
*shrug* I'm happy to pay £10 more for a higher quality product. In 5th I never bothered buying a codex ,even for my own army. I think that's mainly because of how tattered and worn-looking they ended up becoming. But in 6th I will buy most codexes that interest me, even if I have no desire to collect an army. They're simply nice things to have and to hold, I like spending my hard earned money on nice things
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/24 00:38:47
KommissarKarl wrote: *shrug* I'm happy to pay £10 more for a higher quality product. In 5th I never bothered buying a codex ,even for my own army. I think that's mainly because of how tattered and worn-looking they ended up becoming. But in 6th I will buy most codexes that interest me, even if I have no desire to collect an army. They're simply nice things to have and to hold, I like spending my hard earned money on nice things
But it isn't a higher-quality product. The point is that other companies make nice hardcover books that cost less than GW's books. GW's prices are based on an awful combination of "our customers will pay it therefore we charge it" and "we run the company so badly that we need to charge more than everyone else just to make the same profit margin".
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
nosferatu1001 wrote: and? your quote snipping again dropped the context, which is that you cannot just compare like for like and say it has doubled in price "because", without including the contributing factors. Or at least those that GW attributed to the price rise.
Try to avoid snipping context out, makes your posts more coherent.
So what? Your assertion was that full-colour hardback was somehow a license to charge higher prices, yet we have examples of companies doing the exact opposite of that. Concede, or find a real reason to justify Codex costs.
*shrug* I'm happy to pay £10 more for a higher quality product. In 5th I never bothered buying a codex ,even for my own army. I think that's mainly because of how tattered and worn-looking they ended up becoming. But in 6th I will buy most codexes that interest me, even if I have no desire to collect an army. They're simply nice things to have and to hold, I like spending my hard earned money on nice things
And while there are people like yourself buying product from GW, what incentive is there for them to change?
Look at a codex, it is, in essence, the same format that is produced every year for a variety of children's annuals for barely a quarter of the cost, even factoring the lower circulation and alleged increased development costs (although I doubt this differs significantly from the production of any book of similar size) the figures don't stack up.
But, if people are willing to fork over cash for "nice things" (really, you think codexes are high quality books?) then the cycle will repeat.
I like many others, begrudgingly buy those for my own armies (second hand of possible, at least from a discounter) but, again like many others, I used to habitually buy every book, I think I've still got all my 2ed books somewhere, but that is now a thing of the past.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/24 00:45:52
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
KommissarKarl wrote: *shrug* I'm happy to pay £10 more for a higher quality product. In 5th I never bothered buying a codex ,even for my own army. I think that's mainly because of how tattered and worn-looking they ended up becoming. But in 6th I will buy most codexes that interest me, even if I have no desire to collect an army. They're simply nice things to have and to hold, I like spending my hard earned money on nice things
But it isn't a higher-quality product. The point is that other companies make nice hardcover books that cost less than GW's books. GW's prices are based on an awful combination of "our customers will pay it therefore we charge it" and "we run the company so badly that we need to charge more than everyone else just to make the same profit margin".
It's not a higher value product *to you*. To me it is. I like the colour and the artwork, and I know I'm not alone in this, there was a lot of positive feedback for the hardback codexes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: (really, you think codexes are high quality books?
You need to cut out this sort of sneering contempt in your posts. You're on a forum where we're all paying stupid money for plastic toy soldiers, as part of a greater hobby community where people spend stupid amount of money on books/cards/props. Yes I think my hard-back codexes are high quality. Mind explaining why you find that notion so offensive?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/24 00:57:52
I'm just surprised that you term codexes as "high quality" when, unless we're talking about the LEs, and then barely, they are distinctly ordinary examples of their medium.
Like I said, 100 page, full colour hard back A4 books are the same format as children's annuals, at least they were when I was a kid.
The Heresy books would be something I'd consider high quality, and while they are still most definitely overpriced, when you consider they're barely more than the cost of two codexes, it isn't them that look poor by reflection.
EDIT
But "sneering contempt?" I like that, props for portraying me as a moustachioed super villain in your head. Have we met?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/24 01:03:11
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
KommissarKarl wrote: *shrug* I'm happy to pay £10 more for a higher quality product.
Higher quality than what, exactly?
The old codexes. I should say I do have a history of doing this, I bought the 3rd Edition D&D Rulebook simply because it felt like a nice thing to own. It was nice to read the rules in such a nice format.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: Where do you get the idea I find it offensive?
I'm just surprised that you term codexes as "high quality" when, unless we're talking about the LEs, and then barely, they are distinctly ordinary examples of their medium.
Like I said, 100 page, full colour hard back A4 books are the same format as children's annuals, at least they were when I was a kid.
The Heresy books would be something I'd consider high quality, and while they are still most definitely overpriced, when you consider they're barely more than the cost of two codexes, it isn't them that look poor by reflection.
EDIT
But "sneering contempt?" I like that, props for portraying me as a moustachioed super villain in your head. Have we met?
Clearly I just have lower standards than you eh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/24 01:07:02
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Hardcover is not "high quality". It's a physical medium choice. It barely costs the printing company more on the manufacturing, usually $1-$2 (look up articles on this) extra over the soft covers. I imagine the shipping cost is what can eat into them more so than cost to make.
The color printing also can't increase the cost that much as you see it even in the small sized Malifaux book for $15. There's no way it can eat into the cost that much to justify a full color $15 mini rulebook.
So the quality improvements of hardcover and color printing are just a ruse to justify $20 price increases for minimal cost increase. They were already going to put out that content, they were already going to hire those artists; all the content was already going to be produced. So some MBA thought of the great idea to make dupe the consumer into thinking they were getting something of higher quality just to charge $20 more. Oh, glad to see people are still falling for that!
Now when it comes to actual content, it's gotten objectively worse, more so since the December to Remember event. We have more proofreading mistakes, more oversatured studio pictures of studio paint schemes; less conversions, no Golden Daemons, no painting guides. The layout is degrading along with the fluff losing ground to more and more photos.
And if the new Ork codex is the indicator of 7E, you've lost not only a major chunk of original artwork to more studio photos, but you've also lost one of the most useful sections in the book. It's flat out objectively worse than the previous layouts.
So yes, the quality has dropped profusely in what you pay for with the age-old ruse of putting a bit of polish on that turd. If you fall for it once, then sure, it gets us all. If keep paying for it, then shame on you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/24 01:48:00
Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
2014/07/24 01:57:15
Subject: Re:Do you really think GW is "going under"?
I was genuinely disappointed to see that artwork had been replaced with model pictures.
It may be small, but I loved the art of the characters in the 5th ed IG book. Pask and Bastonne just looked like badasses. To imagine them instead as a generic picture of a tank commander and a generic Cadian sergeant makes me sad.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2014/07/24 02:02:36
Subject: Re:Do you really think GW is "going under"?
Blacksails wrote: I was genuinely disappointed to see that artwork had been replaced with model pictures.
It may be small, but I loved the art of the characters in the 5th ed IG book. Pask and Bastonne just looked like badasses. To imagine them instead as a generic picture of a tank commander and a generic Cadian sergeant makes me sad.
Same. I'm glad the Imperial Guard was released before they thought about using model pictures. Hopefully they'll drop them by the time they get round to the next guard dex
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/24 02:03:12
2014/07/24 02:06:21
Subject: Re:Do you really think GW is "going under"?
Same. I'm glad the Imperial Guard was released before they thought about using model pictures. Hopefully they'll drop them by the time they get round to the next guard dex
Indeed.
Still a shame a lot of fluff was cut from the 6th book. There was nothing about my beloved Mordians.
On the plus side, I just found out there's a novel for about the Iron Guard. Gives me an excuse to check out the local GW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/24 02:06:33
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2014/07/24 02:15:49
Subject: Re:Do you really think GW is "going under"?
Same. I'm glad the Imperial Guard was released before they thought about using model pictures. Hopefully they'll drop them by the time they get round to the next guard dex
Indeed.
Still a shame a lot of fluff was cut from the 6th book. There was nothing about my beloved Mordians.
On the plus side, I just found out there's a novel for about the Iron Guard. Gives me an excuse to check out the local GW.
This is why I resent my codex.
Fluff of all the regiments that made up the guard have finally been nearly reduced to nothing.
Cadian Koolaide dosage is being increased each edition.
2014/07/24 02:27:27
Subject: Re:Do you really think GW is "going under"?
thetallestgiraffe wrote: I think that people should stop trying to look into the future when they have no clue what's going to happen to GW. Companies don't have horizons more than five years and frankly none of us even know what GW has planned in that time. If GW is going under it shows NO real prospects of doing so at the moment, it is just showing a current lack of growth. This could change very easily due to any number of things.
People need to stop trying to predict more than 5 years into the future as you have no idea what will happen beyond then and it doesn't look like GW is going to collapse right now.
Sooooo, how do you explain the rapidly falling market share?
What is that if not a sign of GW going under?
What, by your definition would be anyway? It sounds like you're trying to say that no one can ever know if a company is going under.
Has Microsoft gone under? They were over $100 a share and now is what, $50 or under $30 a share? Is Apple going under? They were over $700 a share last year. What are they now? 1/2 that? So I guess Apple is going under and we will have no more iPads, iPhones and Macs next year or so.
Man, these threads always move so fast when I'm asleep. Makes it hard to keep up.
Anyway the point I was making had nothing to do with share price or stocks. I'm talking market share, as in the percentage of the market GW owns.
Here in Australia that is crumbling. It is now easier for me to get games of Warmachine, x wing, dystopian wars and kings of war than 40k or fantasy. 2nd edition Dystopian Wars of all things outsold 40k 7th ed 7 to 1 through one of our largest online retailers. FLGSs are thriving while GW stores seem to struggle to get people in the door.
Once upon a time GW appeared to have complete and total market share unless you looked at historical games. Now it would seem generous to give them even 50% here in oz. Those aren't hard numbers by any means but you can't argue that they haven't lost a huge amount of market share and that is a very big warning sign, especially if there is nothing to suggest they are growing rather than falling further.
Ok, I thought you meant share price, and they went down so they must be going out of business. Not sure why I didn't pick up on the Market Share. Having trouble sleeping the last few days, so I guess I read it wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/24 03:16:50
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
