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tag8833 wrote:
]But the KFF saves against hits in your view where as the Armor Save is against wounds. So a model is only taking 1 save against each.

Plus, as I understand the flow of the game that you propose.
1) Enemy Rolls to Hit.
2) KFF saves.
3) Hits that weren't saved are rolled to wound.
4) Armor save.

There is a similar effect with Eldar Titan Holofields. That is why the Lynx is so good. It works like this.
1) Enemy Rolls to Hit.
2) Once they've hit they roll again to see if they actually hit (4+)
3) Roll to Glance / Pen.
4) Jink / Invul saves.

But would that be taking more than one saving throw per model ?

Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

So 'eavy armour then?

Just gotta find all my sprues and start gluing it on xD

 Dakkamite wrote:
Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/635005.page

 Dakkamite wrote:
Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

I think its a bit disingenuous to say that in an Apoc game where generally most troop choices are just there to be removed by apocalyptic blast templates, strength D or otherwise. Ork boyz, especially in a green tide, like koooaie has pointed out, mitigates a good deal of some of the weaknesses boyz have against anti-infantry and morale issues thanks to access to the Big Bosspole relic and unit-wide FNP thanks to a Painboy. Even battlewagon rush lists still work with boyz, you just have to make sure they don't go in unsupported, have units of 2 tag team together on a unit.

Honestly, I see boyz as solidly upper-middle tier troops choices, simply because of much they can synergize with HQ and other units in the book regardless of most builds. They lose to the obviously overly resilient Necron Immortals/Warriors due to the Decurion and Eldar windrider jetbikes due to their ridiculous damage output but then again so do most other troops choices.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

Well I don't think they suck but making use of them isn't as easy as it was in previous editions.

It doesn't help their options for transport options can be limited.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

It doesn't help their options for transport options can be limited.

It's somewhat funny taking into consideration that ork assault vehicles are one of the best in the game. Think it's more a problem of the core rules rather than codex design when it comes to vehicles. They just aren't so great without a ton of powerful special rules or rediculously low pt cost.

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

It doesn't help their options for transport options can be limited.

It's somewhat funny taking into consideration that ork assault vehicles are one of the best in the game. Think it's more a problem of the core rules rather than codex design when it comes to vehicles. They just aren't so great without a ton of powerful special rules or rediculously low pt cost.

Well to my knowledge the only options that don't eat into Heavy Support that can carry a full unit are the Trukk and the WarKopta.

With the Trukk you could very well lose a significant portion of the entire unit if it explodes or blows up.

Hey guys I could do with a little assistance, I ran this list Friday night;

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My List;

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I ran two games against what was basically;
Logan on chariot, 2 dreadnaughts with frostcannons of some sort and a claw, 2 rhinos with CC Marinewolves with flamers and some scion allies who were basically all deepstriking, plasma unit, melta unit and flamer unit.

In the first game I evaporated logan in combat; as he moved forward really aggressively and I used both boyz units to drown him in saves before he could do much. I had a bit of an unlucky time with my scythe not arriving till turn 4 and my MANz rolling their 2+ save like it was a 4+ , the scythe and immortals did some serious work when they did arrive, twin linked tesla destructor is brutal. the deathmarks in both games obliterated the plasma squad with command dude twin linking them, the 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound just left them with so many saves to make, was impressed, they seriously protected my wagons. The melta unit miss-happed in both games and I got to place them

However where I had issues was the second game, Logan pushed forward and it resulted with him in combat with 1 squad of boyz, the immortals and orikan (who transformed in the second round of the challenge), and eventually 2 MANz on the third turn of combat. Logan wrecked them all, the boyz attacks just couldn't make it past the 2+, orikan couldn't get past the 4+ before getting crushed and in the end he swept all three units once they failed combat checks after 3 combat turns. The dreads finishing up the other squads. It was a close game, the kommandos were racking me up VP's, the killkannons were MVP for sure, blasting easily 5x their cost off the board in each game.

What should I do against something like logan?

Should I just tie him up and feed him units rather than try and kill him?

How do you deal with dreads? the scythe was brutal against them, it killed 1 a turn when it arrived, it killed 1 vehicle a turn tbh.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

It doesn't help their options for transport options can be limited.

It's somewhat funny taking into consideration that ork assault vehicles are one of the best in the game. Think it's more a problem of the core rules rather than codex design when it comes to vehicles. They just aren't so great without a ton of powerful special rules or rediculously low pt cost.

Well to my knowledge the only options that don't eat into Heavy Support that can carry a full unit are the Trukk and the WarKopta.

With the Trukk you could very well lose a significant portion of the entire unit if it explodes or blows up.

your right you can lose a significant portion of the unit if they blow up, but I think that issue stems from a combination of Open-topped (so being an assault vehicle) and the fact our units don't have great saves. If you have a unit of 'ard boyz, then your looking at; 50% saved on the save, then with a painboy your looking at another 33% of that 50% saved, so a 12 man unit thats down to almost no wounds received. But without the 4+/FNP your looking at like 3-4 deaths.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

Well I don't think they suck but making use of them isn't as easy as it was in previous editions.

It doesn't help their options for transport options can be limited.

My biggest issue with all Ork codexes since 3rd Edition is and always has been their Ld.

I loved when bikes were Fearless, that's why I bought so many.

I loved when boys were Fearless in 5th even if it meant losing more to post combat wounds.

Now they are the worst they've ever been due to Mob Rule and soooo many other models causing Fear and Psychic tests that auto wound based on Ld.

For me the absolute best part of Mad Doc and the Codex Stompa is granting Fearless.

Best force multiplier in the Ork Codex for my play style. I wish Wagggh still granted it.

Anywho, that's the one great part of units in vehicles, buildings, and vehicles themselves.

TL,DR: Ld has always been the bane o' da Orks; now it's just worse than ever.

Kustom Stompa also has effigy.
I like the Bullyboyz formation as Fearless MANz are tasty, but in this day and age of D3 D weapons, I find it harder and harder to justify their role in my Orks.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Kustom Stompa also has effigy.
I like the Bullyboyz formation as Fearless MANz are tasty, but in this day and age of D3 D weapons, I find it harder and harder to justify their role in my Orks.

And with marines getting more grav weapons, the 2+ armor on the mega nobs is pointles.

Kinda hoping for a Grav update come 8th edition but ya know, Spess Mahreens are poster boyz so I will quietly weep in the corner.

Solar Shock wrote:

What should I do against something like logan?

Should I just tie him up and feed him units rather than try and kill him?

How do you deal with dreads? the scythe was brutal against them, it killed 1 a turn when it arrived, it killed 1 vehicle a turn tbh.

For my playstile the answers are:

tarpit

tarpit

tarpit

And it's sometimes better to allow them charge in the unit you want and not charge yourself - especially if you won't be able to tarpit for too long and aren't planning on killing it.

However, your list doesn't have many tarpitters. So, i'd try to get the charge off on Logan and position nob the way he won't be able to challenge/accept challenge for the first round. Than strike against the chariot and try to blow it up with a bunch of s9 ap2 attacks in the firt round and s8 ap2 attacks in the second and further on when meks and painbosses will be eating challenges. You can choose who're you striking against - a vehicle, or a rider. So, you can choose to strike a chariot with your PK - will probably have more chances exploding it rather than killing Logan. If you're not getting the charge off, it's even easier to position your guyz the way you won't accept challenges with a nob.
Ofc, if boyz prove to be successful wounding Logan with their regular attacks, you can try to finish him off with PK.

Dreads don't have too many mellee attacks iirc. PK will help you too. In my experience, dreads kill more orkses with explosions.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

So 'eavy armour then?

Just gotta find all my sprues and start gluing it on xD

In a world without mass AP4 shooting and blasts I would pay 4pts per model for this. On boyz that get into combat it could be worth it, or even on boyz that die to non AP4 weight of fire. But when an opponent drops a template and kills nearly double the points value of Orks they otherwise would have, just can't justify it

@Kooaei

Green Tide ranks amongst the least enjoyable experiences of my life. Would run that many models in a mass battles system like warpath, but not one where they have to be individually spaced for templates and gak, just so tedious.

I think its a bit disingenuous to say that in an Apoc game where generally most troop choices are just there to be removed by apocalyptic blast templates, strength D or otherwise.

In that game my opponent had zero blast templates. The Orks just got blended by enemy infantry of all things.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

So 'eavy armour then?

Just gotta find all my sprues and start gluing it on xD

In a world without mass AP4 shooting and blasts I would pay 4pts per model for this. On boyz that get into combat it could be worth it, or even on boyz that die to non AP4 weight of fire. But when an opponent drops a template and kills nearly double the points value of Orks they otherwise would have, just can't justify it

@Kooaei

Green Tide ranks amongst the least enjoyable experiences of my life. Would run that many models in a mass battles system like warpath, but not one where they have to be individually spaced for templates and gak, just so tedious.

I think its a bit disingenuous to say that in an Apoc game where generally most troop choices are just there to be removed by apocalyptic blast templates, strength D or otherwise.

In that game my opponent had zero blast templates. The Orks just got blended by enemy infantry of all things.

Were your Orks on foot or did their transports get destroyed ?

I jumped 80 Orks out of 4 battlewagons and shot at + charged a number of space wolf infantry and thunderwolf cavalry (using 6th ed codex if that matters).

I'd have been fine if my boyz had done a lot of damage and then went down, but man, they just died so bad and did very little to the enemy. The only survivors were one mob that had the sense to fail a shooting morale and leg it before the countercharge took them out.

That scene was repeated in my last game against IG. Green tide absorbed a lot of firepower but ultimately fell 1" short of the enemy line. Wasn't even that much anti-infantry firepower - no wyverns, maybe 2 leman russ splitting fire between the tide and other stuff, and a bunch of lasguns..

Just haven't been very impressed with them in any game recently.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I jumped 80 Orks out of 4 battlewagons and shot at + charged a number of space wolf infantry and thunderwolf cavalry (using 6th ed codex if that matters).

I'd have been fine if my boyz had done a lot of damage and then went down, but man, they just died so bad and did very little to the enemy. The only survivors were one mob that had the sense to fail a shooting morale and leg it before the countercharge took them out.

That scene was repeated in my last game against IG. Green tide absorbed a lot of firepower but ultimately fell 1" short of the enemy line. Wasn't even that much anti-infantry firepower - no wyverns, maybe 2 leman russ splitting fire between the tide and other stuff, and a bunch of lasguns..

Just haven't been very impressed with them in any game recently.

That is probably the reason that infantry heavy Orks don't leave me as impressed in this edition.

Things start falling apart when you start failing morale.

But did you try attaching Grotsnik to the unit ?

I believe he can make the entire Green Tide fearless and can give Feel No Pain.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I jumped 80 Orks out of 4 battlewagons and shot at + charged a number of space wolf infantry and thunderwolf cavalry (using 6th ed codex if that matters).

I'd have been fine if my boyz had done a lot of damage and then went down, but man, they just died so bad and did very little to the enemy. The only survivors were one mob that had the sense to fail a shooting morale and leg it before the countercharge took them out.

That scene was repeated in my last game against IG. Green tide absorbed a lot of firepower but ultimately fell 1" short of the enemy line. Wasn't even that much anti-infantry firepower - no wyverns, maybe 2 leman russ splitting fire between the tide and other stuff, and a bunch of lasguns..

Just haven't been very impressed with them in any game recently.

They're not great for either of those roles, necessarily. The first situation requires shock troops as linebreakers, especially against space wolves and thunderwolves. Boyz are really not suited for taking units like that in combat.

The second situation is a little more surprising, but guard blobs with FRFSRF and Prescience for example can do an obscene amount of damage to light infantry in the open.

My last game, I had a unit of 'ard boyz with a painboy kill a company command squad, an inquisitor and his retinue, and a chimera after dismounting from a battlewagon with the warboss (who split off to go rip tanks apart by himself). A unit of shoota boyz cleared some conscripts out of a ruin and then wiped out some melta vets that deep-strike'd out of a Valkyrie (?) and tried to demo-charge my meganobz and steal an objective. Another unit of shoota boyz got wiped out but soaked fire from half his army for a turn, so I call that doing their jobs.

To use boyz effectively, you definitely need to have a good idea of what they can do and not ask them to bite off more than they can chew. And just like any other basic infantry, they need to be properly supported. It's no longer just step 1: get into combat, and step 2: win. They're fantastic for holding objectives or being a distraction though: that lone deffkopta sitting on an objective scoring you points is easy for your opponent to overlook when there are dozens of green-skinned axe-murderers running towards him.

Dont know if this has been said, but i find a unit of burna boys behind a promethium pipeline can be very dangerous against assault armys

office_waaagh 643980 7872322 5d9119639f48dd25ddd4dda65e468e0d.jpg

wrote:They're not great for either of those roles, necessarily. The first situation requires shock troops as linebreakers, especially against space wolves and thunderwolves. Boyz are really not suited for taking units like that in combat.

The second situation is a little more surprising, but guard blobs with FRFSRF and Prescience for example can do an obscene amount of damage to light infantry in the open.

My last game, I had a unit of 'ard boyz with a painboy kill a company command squad, an inquisitor and his retinue, and a chimera after dismounting from a battlewagon with the warboss (who split off to go rip tanks apart by himself). A unit of shoota boyz cleared some conscripts out of a ruin and then wiped out some melta vets that deep-strike'd out of a Valkyrie (?) and tried to demo-charge my meganobz and steal an objective. Another unit of shoota boyz got wiped out but soaked fire from half his army for a turn, so I call that doing their jobs.

To use boyz effectively, you definitely need to have a good idea of what they can do and not ask them to bite off more than they can chew. And just like any other basic infantry, they need to be properly supported. It's no longer just step 1: get into combat, and step 2: win. They're fantastic for holding objectives or being a distraction though: that lone deffkopta sitting on an objective scoring you points is easy for your opponent to overlook when there are dozens of green-skinned axe-murderers running towards him.

Im going to be trying 'ard boyz next game, flamers have just been ruining my day, I think I will try grotsnik, he is pricy, but provides FNP, PK attacks and fearless, as people have mentioned a couple times and its something I've felt in both my last games; when boyz fail morale it SUCKS BAD. Mob rule I've found that just too often I don't have enough boyz left after combat that im still failing on 4-6 and 1. So even with a BP ive not got great odds of sticking about. not to mention killing ~3 boyz when I do. i'm hoping a nice blob of 30 'ard shoota boyz with grotznik could be a good combo. Aiming for a unit who can run into the midfield, cover an objective or two in bodies and just provide a big core of a denying, shooting unit.

As you mentioned, they are great for taking heat off other units. I use 5 man barebones (maybe with a BS) commandos sat on objectives. Generally I try and clump objectives as much as possible, typically the other player will then place some further away attempting to force me to spread more. But I just deploy on the side that is clustered and then infiltrate onto the other with the commandos. Sometimes they get wiped, but it means that they had to go out of their way to go across the board to do so.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Man, I've been trying to resist the new motto of "toys before boys", but my apoc game yesterday sealed the deal.

Boyz suck. They suck bad.

Though the thing is, I think they've always sucked, its just when they were fearless they sucked a little less - and more importantly, as you never had to take morale tests on the large blobs, you never really noticed how badly they were being mauled by virtually everything.

This was in casual apoc too, for competitive 1850pts blah blah I can't see them being good for very much at all.

I never take boyz to an apoc game, unless i'm running the greentide. Its dread mob back up with super heavy support. I played a 6000pt apoc game yesterday.

My list was:
Council of Waagh!
Shock attack gun battery
2 loota wagons
Battlewagon
Kustom Stompa
Mega-Mek dread
Morkanaut
Gorkanaut
3x deffdreads
6x KillKans
3x deff koptas
Attackfighta
Kill Krusher Tank
Pulse Rokket.

The Group I play with, we allow a lot of the old data sheets and formations provide their rules still work. If not, then you can still play it just it does have the rule. Lucky for us the Shock Attack gun battery rules still work and so does the pulse rock. Which with the Pulse rocket its pretty funny. Basically incapacitates a player's force. Yesterday, my pulse rocket killed a Knight, 4 tanks, Techmarine, and a half a gaurd squad.

I just noticed this thread. (I don't come around to Dakka very often.) It's been a good read. there are only two bitz I am unclear on from the discussion so far.
1, was mention of using blitz bombers against Invisible units.
I would like to know more about that.
2, there was mention of using the MFF with a Mek Stompa to protect the Power Fields.
How does that work? I asked about that recently in my gaming group and was told they didn't think that it worked that way.
Does it? Thanks for the help.

On a note about KFF/MFF and range D weapons should follow this process: Example will be a Stompa with KFF getting shot at by a war-hound with turbo laser.

Attacker declares target >
Roll to see if it hits>
Roll on D str table>
if 1 nothing. If 2-5, roll KFF/MFF save. If failled, Stompa takes d3 hull points. Plus a roll on the vehicle damage table. If 6, no roll for KFF, MFF. Stompa takes 6+d6 hull points. Plus a roll on the vehicle damage table.

Yes, you only get 1 roll on the KFF/ MFF in this instant because D weapons rules says its a single penetration hit that does d3.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warhead01 wrote:
I just noticed this thread. (I don't come around to Dakka very often.) It's been a good read. there are only two bitz I am unclear on from the discussion so far.
1, was mention of using blitz bombers against Invisible units.
I would like to know more about that.
2, there was mention of using the MFF with a Mek Stompa to protect the Power Fields.
How does that work? I asked about that recently in my gaming group and was told they didn't think that it worked that way.
Does it? Thanks for the help.

The MFF and power fields doesn't actually work. Because the wording of the power field says that as long as you have a power field, shooting attacks are resolved against it and not the model. Where the MFF says its a 4++ for shooting attacks at the model. I believe there is a post where we discuss it back a few pages but I don't remember what page. Either way taking the MFF and powerfields is still a good combo. you have a buffer of 1-6 hull points that can soak up the fire from D-weapons. Once the power fields are down, then you get to roll your 4++ invul. Believe me if you roll good on the power fields so players will just ignore the stompa because it because next to unkillable. Especially if you got guys inside that can repair the hull point lose.

The MFF and power fields doesn't actually work. Because the wording of the power field says that as long as you have a power field, shooting attacks are resolved against it and not the model. Where the MFF says its a 4++ for shooting attacks at the model. I believe there is a post where we discuss it back a few pages but I don't remember what page. Either way taking the MFF and powerfields is still a good combo. you have a buffer of 1-6 hull points that can soak up the fire from D-weapons. Once the power fields are down, then you get to roll your 4++ invul. Believe me if you roll good on the power fields so players will just ignore the stompa because it because next to unkillable. Especially if you got guys inside that can repair the hull point lose.

Thank you, that was how my group determined our ruling. It's nice to know we are headed in the same direction as the rules.

 warhead01 wrote:

The MFF and power fields doesn't actually work. Because the wording of the power field says that as long as you have a power field, shooting attacks are resolved against it and not the model. Where the MFF says its a 4++ for shooting attacks at the model. I believe there is a post where we discuss it back a few pages but I don't remember what page. Either way taking the MFF and powerfields is still a good combo. you have a buffer of 1-6 hull points that can soak up the fire from D-weapons. Once the power fields are down, then you get to roll your 4++ invul. Believe me if you roll good on the power fields so players will just ignore the stompa because it because next to unkillable. Especially if you got guys inside that can repair the hull point lose.

Thank you, that was how my group determined our ruling. It's nice to know we are headed in the same direction as the rules.

No problem.

What would be a better way to run Lootas, 15x1 with a MA character with them, or 2x10?

 Frozocrone wrote:
What would be a better way to run Lootas, 15x1 with a MA character with them, or 2x10?

I've been having the same dilemma. The advantages vary though;

The MA allows you to move and fire, also gives you a 2+, but comes in at a minimum of 75 points, which is 5 lootas (hence why your saying 15 vs 20 I assume). However, at 10 models, you only need to fail 3 saves to face a LD check. Whereas at 13+ you need 4 deaths. IMO it also depends on the rest of your list, personally I prefer 2x small units, as it means you can target two units if the first unit blows up the said raider or whatever your target was. Plus it helps mitigate rolling a 1 on the D3, as in general 15 lootas firing 45 shots is going to wreck anything. but 15 lootas firing 15 shots is a lot less potent, with two units I like knowing that even with say 8 or 9 models a roll of 3 is still 24/27 shots, which will bring most things down, then even if the second unit rolls a 1 you don't fell let down.

 Frozocrone wrote:
What would be a better way to run Lootas, 15x1 with a MA character with them, or 2x10?

It depends on what you want them to do. I prefer more small units over one big one for three reasons:

1. You can divide your firepower between multiple targets. Your mileage may vary on this, concentrated fire certainly has its advantages, but for times when 15 Lootas on one target is overkill being able to pop two transports instead of one can be nice. If the first unit doesn't get the job done, the second one can pick up the slack. It also gives you better coverage of the battlefield, as it's harder to hide an important but vulnerable vehicle from two units of lootas than one.

2. When they take casualties, they tend to take a lot at once. I rarely lose two or three, it's usually more like five or six. If they get assaulted, it's game over for that unit. Having another unit can mitigate the damage. Attaching a mek to the unit can help with the mob rule table, since he's technically a character - 15 points for a 1/3 chance to ignore a failed morale check is not bad, and offers an alternative to spending big (and using up a precious HQ slot) on a big mek.

3. This one is a bit more specific to the way I use lootas, which is more for area denial than direct damage. The idea is that if I have the lootas covering a part of the battlefield, it basically becomes suicide for certain units to go there; light-medium vehicles (including most walkers), lightly armoured flyers, some monstrous creatures, small elite units (genestealers, rust-stalkers, and the like), and so on. Now I can deploy and maneuver units that are vulnerable to those things in that area with impunity, safe in the knowledge that anything that comes near my own troops will get Loota'd. Even if they never kill anything, if they've cut off that part of the battlefield they've done their job, especially if I can grab objectives there with other units under Loota cover. Deploying them defensively, out of sight of enemy long-range fire, becomes more practical in this role since they can be cut off from most of the battlefield and still fulfill their task.

Im starting to look at weird GT alternatives like a minigreentide where you just upgrade 3-4 mobs to have nobs with powerklaws and put in a painboy, and hide zaggstrukks stormboyz with 3 nobz with powerklaws in it to one side for a turn 2-3 charge by jumping over front GT ranks, rokkit run, and charge. Possible 36" charge when waaagh from greentide is going. Average charge is 26" By dropping 6-7nobs+upgrades you save enough points to put in zag+20 stormboyz, so then only upgrading 3 to nobz with powerklaw is the real change in cost versus a normal greentide. You have less powerklaws than a normal greentide, but you end up having an unit hiding in it that can reach out and charge anything on the table your second turn that has 3 powerklaws+zagg.

Its essentially the same cost as a 'normal' GT but has a hidden element that pops out and does some stuff that Mork would approve of while having a similar body count in an area but at the cost of less nobz with powerklaws (has 6 nobz with powerklaws spread between the GT and stormboyz versus 10 in the GT)

As it can charge your second turn it can kill/tie up a lot of things that would hurt the tide, albiet the tide is not hitting as hard as a tide with 10 powerklaw nobs, it has a lot more weight of ork bodies behind it when it hits the enemy line.

It is vulnerable to barrages sniping out the stormboyz, but I do not see many barrages outside of AM.