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 Grimmor wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Durability of a vehicle is now dictated by 3 stats. BW has higher toughness and more wounds. Ya stompas are pretty bad, buts its ok, cause Nauts got better and are more practical to put in a bag than stompas.

Yes, and Toughness is the least important of the 3, as everything can wound everything. The BW having a 3+ would be immensely helpful as then it would actually have a save against Lascannons

For mechanized lists the KFF is a godsend. All anti tank punches through the armor on ork vehicles, and the KFF rule applies to vehicles even if they are only halfway inside the bubble. A KFF on bike behind a line of tanks with flanks of grots means we're likely to get through even going second without loosing much. After that first turn, the KFF has done its job and can just harass the field and any additional saves is icing. Sure a 3+ would have been nice, but then you'd jsut get a 6 against the lascannon, KFF gives you a 5.

 davou wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Durability of a vehicle is now dictated by 3 stats. BW has higher toughness and more wounds. Ya stompas are pretty bad, buts its ok, cause Nauts got better and are more practical to put in a bag than stompas.

Yes, and Toughness is the least important of the 3, as everything can wound everything. The BW having a 3+ would be immensely helpful as then it would actually have a save against Lascannons

For mechanized lists the KFF is a godsend. All anti tank punches through the armor on ork vehicles, and the KFF rule applies to vehicles even if they are only halfway inside the bubble. A KFF on bike behind a line of tanks with flanks of grots means we're likely to get through even going second without loosing much. After that first turn, the KFF has done its job and can just harass the field and any additional saves is icing. Sure a 3+ would have been nice, but then you'd jsut get a 6 against the lascannon, KFF gives you a 5.

Huh, glad that the KFF works when the vehicle is partially in, cuz it doesnt do that for Mobz, which is why it rather sucks for Mobz. Then there's the nerfing of FnP to a 6+ and the loss of our 'eavy Armor. Seriously, why GW decided to gut our defensive capabilities i don't know.

 Jidmah wrote:

You are comparing points between old and new edition, which got massively reworked for all vehicles. You might as well compare them to army points in Warmachine or Recource costs in Starcraft. So stop.

So what? You average S5 and S6 weapon (heavy bolters, scatter lasers) are going to need 8-10 hits to take a wound off. That's a wave serpent shooting everything it has per wound, so it takes just 8 wave serpents (over ~1100 points of eldar, depending on vehicle upgrades) to kill it in 5 turns.

Your arguments are "it was better last edition" and "there is a very slight chance that something might hurt it that couldn't hurt it before". He played it, so I'm inclined to take his word over yours

yes, I am comparing the old points to the new points crazy concept I Know. Yes all vehicles got drastically reworked but lets take a look at our SM Equivalents. Predator Annihilators used to cost 140pts for 3 Lascannon shots. Now the standard price is 102pts+weapons. Since Lascannons didn't go up in price lets assume the sponsons didnt either which means 40pts for 2 lascannons and then 50pts for the Turret so now for 190pts you get the same load out. 50pts higher right? Wrong. you went from AV13 11 10 with 3 HPs to a T7 11wound 3+ save model with 4 Lascannon shots not 3 and Lascannons got a HUGE buff on top of that.

So the Predator Annihilator got more durable and got more dakka for the low price of a 35% increase in price. Ohh and against a Stompa, you can field 7 of these for less points and they put out 28 Lascannon shots which 19ish will hit, 13ish Will wound at -3 AP so 11 will go through the armor doing D6 damage averaging 3.5 which means in a single round of shooting those preds inflict....39ishWounds. So that super durable, amazing, well priced stompa just got about got taken out in 1 round of shooting by Predator Annihilators.

Now in all fairness, if the Stompa got to shoot first, it would do 15 S5 Big Shoota shots, 5 would hit 1 would wound and do .33wounds It would then fire its Supa Gattler, lets say he didn't jam and got the 2nd round off as well so 4D6 = 14 shots on average, at BS2 lets say 5 shots hit, 2.5 wounds at -2 AP means 2 more wounds we will say (rounding up to be generous to the stompa). Next the deff Kannon, averaging 1 hit a turn with a .66 chance to wound so lets say it goes through and does 3.5 more wounds, we will round this up to be nice and say 4. Last, it fires off its supa rokkit, 2 shots, .66 chance to hit, so lets round up and say 1 hit, the tank gets a 5+ against this but we will say he failed and does 4 more damage with his D6 throw.

So after all of that, after rounding up WAY MORE OFTEN then is even remotely likely how much return damage did we do? 11 Wounds total. YAY WE KILLED ONE! So if you get really lucky, your Stompa has just enough firepower to kill a single Tank each turn. In return, against a similar amount of points in tanks your stompa will be dead in 2 turns even if your opponent has Crappy luck.

But hey, I haven't played 8th edition yet, and I only know the basics of the new point systems and how badly we got screwed by them.

Pred Annihilators are 202 points. 102, 50 turret, sponsons 25 each.

 Grimmor wrote:

Huh, glad that the KFF works when the vehicle is partially in, cuz it doesnt do that for Mobz, which is why it rather sucks for Mobz. Then there's the nerfing of FnP to a 6+ and the loss of our 'eavy Armor. Seriously, why GW decided to gut our defensive capabilities i don't know.

Yep. a model clipping the KFF field counts as its unit being entirely within the AOE, since the unit is one model. It would need to say 'Units must have all their models entirely within' for it to stop working when you just clip the edge of the AOE.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

You are comparing points between old and new edition, which got massively reworked for all vehicles. You might as well compare them to army points in Warmachine or Recource costs in Starcraft. So stop.

yes, I am comparing the old points to the new points crazy concept I Know. Yes all vehicles got drastically reworked but lets take a look at our SM Equivalents.

JohnU wrote:Pred Annihilators are 202 points. 102, 50 turret, sponsons 25 each.

Whats crazy, is your comparing old points to new points for orks, then comparing those to SM 'equivilents' by comparing old points to points values you GUESStimated.
on top of that, you use the term 'equilivilents' like lascannon preds = a stompa....
Crazy
We know

Firstly, as JohnU pointed out, they are 202 points. So you get 4 and a half. So lets say 4, as you aren't taking half a tank.
Lets re-do the math.

4x 4 = 16 shots.
thats 10.6 hits, round up to 11
So lets split the math here:
Non-kff
so on a 6+ thats 1.83 saved, round up, as we rounded up before for the SM. so we save 2 so 9 go through.
9x 3.5 = 31.5

kff 5+
7.33 x 25.66

So without a kff its about 30 a turn. Assuming he decides the only thing worth doing with 800 points of predators is shooting your 1 stompa. With a kff its 25. As its probably likely you have a kff if you have a stompa (not always im sure, but probably worth it most of the time).Secondly, if im shooting my stompa, im probably not going to fire all of its guns at a single tank. Especially, as like you mathed out.... its wasted time. Im probably going to shoot at the rest of his list, and leave those 16 lascannon shots till the end. because hey! once the stompa's dead. if all i have is boyz. he cant even kill a single boyz squad a turn with 800 points of preds! Sounds like preds got screwed!

You know what.i'll agree with you.
a super heavy is almost never worth the guns on it. But the point is, its not just a gun platform.

 davou wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

Huh, glad that the KFF works when the vehicle is partially in, cuz it doesnt do that for Mobz, which is why it rather sucks for Mobz. Then there's the nerfing of FnP to a 6+ and the loss of our 'eavy Armor. Seriously, why GW decided to gut our defensive capabilities i don't know.

Yep. a model clipping the KFF field counts as its unit being entirely within the AOE, since the unit is one model. It would need to say 'Units must have all their models entirely within' for it to stop working when you just clip the edge of the AOE.

This i am glad to hear.
I think the morka is probably our best KFF platform. That or the junka assuming they do the rules for it in FW.
But it definitely sounds like its most valuable for vehicle heavy lists. I mean even trukk spam would probably benefit. All those 3+ saves are going to draw a lot of AP heavy stuff. And with the choice between the kff morka or the trukks driving straight for you?

honestly, i think we might start to see people trying to handle trukks differently (assuming they are as durable as people are making out). rather than trying to shoot down a trukk, we might see it more like they will wait for the contents to bail out. and try to focus down the boyz inside. As if trukks are surviving to turn 3. maybe it would be best to prioritise somewhere else. Or atleast try to get the charge on the trukk and to CC it to death rather than dedicate anti-tank.

But then will we have as many trukks, probably not. So maybe focussing specific trukks is how it will pan out. who knows.

I feel like Orks should be able to take half a tank.

What do you guys think of Smasha Guns now?

v0iddrgn wrote:
What do you guys think of Smasha Guns now?

I don't know...seems kind of iffy. 1 shot at bs3, plus 2d6 compared to toughness is about 50/50 (presumably you will be shooting it at high W models which usually have high T) for a net result of damage every fourth turn, or about once per game, yielding 3.5 wounds (7 if it hits twice.)

Not sure it's worth 35 points.

I am OK with the trukks being more costly now that I know it can survive more than 1 turn and if it does explode it wont take 1/2 of it's contents with it. We field less of them yes, but they will survive more than a stiff breeze being passed in their direction. The KFF is definitely designed to protect the bigger units than the smaller ones. Still missing our 'eavy armor on our Boyz though, it would have been good this edition.

Regarding the stompa...it's terrible at shooting, so why not put it in combat? Since single models can multicharge, there is a good chance you'll get a character unless he's completely bubblewrapped, in which case you'll probably get 2 other units because the stompa has such a wide skirt.

Folk are complaining that 900 points of specifically spammed units will take it out, but why would you even play a game like that? If somebody lists-tailors against you after you've committed to a list, just say "thank you" and move on.

The stompa will wreck face against TAC lists, likely wiping out at least one key unit per turn if not 2 in cc.

It's worth considering that the Stompa's shooting ability is kind of important as, like the Morkanaut, it becomes more of a gun turret as it loses wounds. At 11-20 wounds its move is 6" and it's WS is 5+, but hopefully it will be way up the field by then so it could still be effective. At 1-10 wounds its move is 4" and its WS is 6+, so it can probably be annoying and tie up shooty units but it's not going to actually kill all that much in close combat, and it can be far more easily bubble wrapped.

This is not to say I think the Stompa is bad, I don't know if it is good or bad. I'm hoping for some cool options out of the Forgeworld book as I own two of them.

On another issue...

You now "deploy" units into reserves, one at a time. Why not take 6 individual koptas (or even cheaper, buggies) and "deploy" them to reserves as your first deployment?

If we assume we're going second anyway, don't give the other side any advantage. If they have no reserves, they'll have to put 6 things down before you put down any. You might as well try to recoup some of the benefit of going second in 7e.

The way it stands, going second in 8e is much, much worse as you have to tip your hand after the other guy has only dropped one thing.

 biggie_reg wrote:
I am OK with the trukks being more costly now that I know it can survive more than 1 turn and if it does explode it wont take 1/2 of it's contents with it. We field less of them yes, but they will survive more than a stiff breeze being passed in their direction. The KFF is definitely designed to protect the bigger units than the smaller ones. Still missing our 'eavy armor on our Boyz though, it would have been good this edition.

I agree, the loss of the Armor doesnt make any sense, especially because Boy Mobz are to big to benefit from cover, and even if we could benefit it isnt worth it for a 5+. That one design decision right there makes me doubt 'new" GW.

Even with the 4+ save the Battlewagon seems reasonably survivable, but not quite survivable enough to want to put a crazy amount of points into it as it is possible to take one down in one turn with concentrated shooting. I think I might throw in a unit of 10 Slugga Boyz with my MANz or Nobz to fill space while not costing very many points and being to absorb the few casualties if the Wagon gets destroyed.

The 'Ard Case seems like a decent form of protection against S7 and S8 weapons that doesn't cost any points, but obviously it doesn't work that well with shooty units.

A small unit of regular Nobz might be a good screening unit to stick in a Battlewagon that's being used as more of a mobile fortress for shooty units. They don't take up much space and don't cost that much, but they could hop out and charge units that were trying to tie up the Battlewagon in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:
On another issue...

You now "deploy" units into reserves, one at a time. Why not take 6 individual koptas (or even cheaper, buggies) and "deploy" them to reserves as your first deployment?

If we assume we're going second anyway, don't give the other side any advantage. If they have no reserves, they'll have to put 6 things down before you put down any. You might as well try to recoup some of the benefit of going second in 7e.

The way it stands, going second in 8e is much, much worse as you have to tip your hand after the other guy has only dropped one thing.

I think there can definitely be advantages to splitting Deffkoptas and buggies up into small units. There are Ork builds where it definitely seems possible that we could go first (Stompas, Battlewagons, etc.), but most Ork army lists are probably going to be pretty big. Three individual Kptas or Buggies fills out most of a Outrider detachment, minus the HQ, so it can be a way to farm Command Points (unless there is a limit on the number of Detachments we can take). Also, Buggies and Koptas have Leadership 6 so every once in a while in squadron we might lose one to morale tests. Obviously there is an advantage to being able to move them independently.

If we're trying to get them into melee there is one small advantage in squadrons in that they might only have to eat overwatch once while if we keep charging them one at a time they might fail or be killed and have to suffer overwatch multiple times.

I wonder if one use for Skorchas might be as a screening unit? They might be able to block charges and Skorchas on overwatch seem pretty good.

Just waiting for forgeworld to see what the meka dread with its kff does. It might be a better version of kff than the morkanaut. And considering it looks like they combined the meka and mega dreads it could be very versatile as well. It's also a cool model.

SemperMortis wrote:
yes, I am comparing the old points to the new points crazy concept I Know. Yes all vehicles got drastically reworked but lets take a look at our SM Equivalents. Predator Annihilators used to cost 140pts for 3 Lascannon shots. Now the standard price is 102pts+weapons. Since Lascannons didn't go up in price lets assume the sponsons didnt either which means 40pts for 2 lascannons and then 50pts for the Turret so now for 190pts you get the same load out. 50pts higher right? Wrong. you went from AV13 11 10 with 3 HPs to a T7 11wound 3+ save model with 4 Lascannon shots not 3 and Lascannons got a HUGE buff on top of that.

You are comparing the stompa to a model you don't even know the actual point cost off. 'nuff said.

So the Predator Annihilator got more durable and got more dakka for the low price of a 35% increase in price. Ohh and against a Stompa, you can field 7 of these for less points and they put out 28 Lascannon shots which 19ish will hit, 13ish Will wound at -3 AP so 11 will go through the armor doing D6 damage averaging 3.5 which means in a single round of shooting those preds inflict....39ishWounds. So that super durable, amazing, well priced stompa just got about got taken out in 1 round of shooting by Predator Annihilators.

Your argument was that stompas got worse because S5 and S6 got better. Lascannons excelled at killing the stompa before and could do so even faster.

But hey, I haven't played 8th edition yet, and I only know the basics of the new point systems and how badly we got screwed by them.

So you're saying that someone who brings 7 x 202 = 1414 points of hard counter to a game can kill a model that is 900 points? No way!

Say, as you are so firm on the basics of the new point system, what do you think those 1414 points of lascannons do when I bring 900 points of boyz instead? That's right, they kill 66 points of models per turn.

buggies and skorchas are pretty cheap for 5 and 6 wounds respectively.

The skorcha is 66 pts and auto hits d6 for st 5 ap-1. It also has 4 attacks in combat (because reasons), at 12" move and ere we go.

I'm going to take a bunch of these and put them on the opponent's flanks on turn 1. I don't think these are ignorable, unlike most of our 7e distraction units (ie our whole codex.)

Technically they "deep strike" touching the battlefield edge, but the official skorcha model (which i don't have) is very long and skinny, so it is quite a few inches in. Gotta kitbash mine some more so they are more like the official model.

Unless we get new skorchas soon...

ETA: Just found the funniest line in the rules. "Each Skorcha is equipped with a skorcha."

If you don't mind 3rd party, the Kromlech buggies/Skorchas are nice pieces.

The ones that were looted quadbikes from deffkoptas are amazing rokkit buggies

 davou wrote:
The ones that were looted quadbikes from deffkoptas are amazing rokkit buggies

I use the Mantic Maruader Trikes for my Rocket Buggies. Neat model and easy enough to get, especially because i got a gak ton of Slugga boyz with them

unfortunately it seems like the marauder line has been super pared down :( I cant see the trikes on offer anymore

Had a game today. Here's a short batrep.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/727637.page#9408159

- Manz didn't really work for me. Sure, i rolled poorly but statistically, a meganob is likely to kill around...1 marine. Yep, pretty poor for 54 pts min that also need a transport. They might still have uses to eat overwatch and put a couple wounds on monsters or vehicles. They might be somewhat ok if you run ghaz and a banner nob. But otherwise 3 attacks hitting on 4+ aren't what i'm used to compared to 7-th bully boyz with 4 attacks on the charge hitting on 3+ most of the time. IMO manz got weaker. Yep, 3 wounds and 2+ armor basically having 5++ vs ap2 but their damage is meh. I think it's time to use regular nobz. They're 2.5 cheaper and hit more often. Too bad i've got 15 manz right at the end of 7-th.
- 30 strong mob ain't that bad! They became a bit cheaper with no need for paying for nob and bosspole. Shootas aren't amazing but can be ok - especially if you plan on deepstriking them.
- Mek gunz are fine. Bubble chukka is a ton of fun and can be deadly! But KMK are the most stable pick imo.
- Trukks are still easy to destroy but they won't pop to a bunch of bolters and heavy bolters any more. Which is a plus.
- Burnas are not amazing. d3 shots are pretty weak. Well, maybe they can be passable if they get to charge after shooting. But don't expect them to actually kill anything meaningful in the shooting phase.
- Kommandoes are ok and you can have a 45 pt unit with 2 burnas and a nob. You can use them to sit on a point with 4+ armor or fish for this 9" charge to help out your frontline.

Looking forward to testing more trukks with regular nobz, tankbustas, kff mek, stormboyz and koptas.

 davou wrote:
unfortunately it seems like the marauder line has been super pared down :( I cant see the trikes on offer anymore

They havent been redesigned yet, but from what i understand the Trikes and Quads will still be around, and i certainly hope so as they are nice models.

On an Ork note i looked at the leaks again and im struggling to figure out why you would buy a PK over a Killsaw now, as its a 3 point difference for an extra -1 AP and it has more reliable damage. It honestly boggles the mind, plus i see that you can dual wield weapons but i really dont see much benefit to it as going first is decided by who charged now.

 koooaei wrote:
- Manz didn't really work for me. Sure, i rolled poorly but statistically, a meganob is likely to kill around...1 marine. Yep, pretty poor for 54 pts min that also need a transport. They might still have uses to eat overwatch and put a couple wounds on monsters or vehicles. They might be somewhat ok if you run ghaz and a banner nob. But otherwise 3 attacks hitting on 4+ aren't what i'm used to compared to 7-th bully boyz with 4 attacks on the charge hitting on 3+ most of the time. IMO manz got weaker. Yep, 3 wounds and 2+ armor basically having 5++ vs ap2 but their damage is meh. I think it's time to use regular nobz. They're 2.5 cheaper and hit more often. Too bad i've got 15 manz right at the end of 7-th.

Ya, since they decidd to not let Orks ignore that penalty (and yes im salty about that) you basically need the Nob with a Banner. It aalso helps that it actually is good and boost everything around it not just the Nobs.

 koooaei wrote:

- 30 strong mob ain't that bad! They became a bit cheaper with no need for paying for nob and bosspole. Shootas aren't amazing but can be ok..

Free stuff is always good

 koooaei wrote:
- Mek gunz are fine. Bubble chukka is a ton of fun and can be deadly! But KMK are the most stable pick imo.

I will never use the Bubblechucka, before it was a semi reliable horde killer, now its just all over the place. Plus its cost more then the KMK and that just kills it for me.

 koooaei wrote:

Trukks are still easy to destroy but they won't pop to a bunch of bolters and heavy bolters any more. Which is a plus.

We get to shoot out of them which is a large plus, so i think Drive By lists will become more common. Them taking actual effort to kill also helps.

 koooaei wrote:
Burnas are not amazing. d3 shots are pretty weak. Well, maybe they can be passable if they get to charge after shooting. But don't expect them to actually kill anything meaningful in the shooting phase.

Burnas being d3 is rather inexplicable as its basically an 8 point upgrade on a normal Ork boy to get a Burna Boy, and since a Powa Choppa (i refuse to call it a Stabba) is 3 points (which is what a Burna is in melee) it means we are paying 5 points for an Auto hitting short range Shoota with random shots, and that feels like a load of BS

 koooaei wrote:

- Kommandoes are ok and you can have a 45 pt unit with 2 burnas and a nob. You can use them to sit on a point with 4+ armor or fish for this 9" charge to help out your frontline.

Kommandoes being able to charge when they show up is a godsend, as they can actually do their jobs now. Them being still cheap is even better.

 koooaei wrote:
Looking forward to testing more trukks with regular nobz, tankbustas, kff mek, stormboyz and koptas.

Tankbustas and Deffkoptas (which were already good) just got better now with the changes to Rokkits. Though Deffkoptas being 83 points seems...excessive to say the least. On the upside Bomms are free and do Mortal wounds now, so thats something.

One more thought. Because of new deployment rules that say players just field units one by one after one another (or at least that was the case in our first mission) I realised that I have 3-4 more than my opponent, so I got the advantage. In 7th sometimes starting second was a problem for me, trucks popped up, template fire came in, etc. (But of course these are out now). We maybe still tend to have higher unit numbers than most armies, so boyz might always go first. For those trying to drop bombs from deffkoptas or have loads of lootas in the open field or trying to teleport boyz, MANz to have a rerollable charge this might mean some insurance for at least having the chance to do so.

can someone explain to me why stormboyz aren't insanely better than boyz because I don't get it

6p normal boyz - 8p faster boyz who can move advance and charge without a warboss

Not just better, insanely better. Or have I missed something?

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
can someone explain to me why stormboyz aren't insanely better than boyz because I don't get it

6p normal boyz - 8p faster boyz who can move advance and charge without a warboss

Not just better, insanely better. Or have I missed something?

You havent. With the loss of 'eavy Armor Stormboyz just pulled ahead of normal Boyz in most circumstances. The benefits i see to Boyz over Stormboyz are:

Boyz have 3 Attacks when they are in a 20+ Mob
They won't outrun a Banner carrier so they can hit on 2+ if they want
They can take Rokkits or Big Shootas (you're never gonna take a Big Shoota so that last bit is a moot point)
They can all be armed with Shootas

Now, if you never planned on taking Shoota Boyz and don't care about the Banner (which isnt necessary) or having a few extra Rokkits, then yes. Stormboyz are flat out better in every way. You can even have a Warboss on a bike back them up if you dont want to risk their own Rokkit Paks. ALso you don't even have to pay a Boyz tax anymore as theres a Detachemnt that is basically all Fast Attack, so the Speed Freaks are back with a vengeance.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
can someone explain to me why stormboyz aren't insanely better than boyz because I don't get it

6p normal boyz - 8p faster boyz who can move advance and charge without a warboss

Not just better, insanely better. Or have I missed something?

Because they'll end their first move in short range for bolters? That's the bigest "problem". But only if they fail their charge.
My first list is trying to use a lot of them.

 Grimmor wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
can someone explain to me why stormboyz aren't insanely better than boyz because I don't get it

6p normal boyz - 8p faster boyz who can move advance and charge without a warboss

Not just better, insanely better. Or have I missed something?

You havent. With the loss of 'eavy Armor Stormboyz just pulled ahead of normal Boyz in most circumstances. The benefits i see to Boyz over Stormboyz are:

Boyz have 3 Attacks when they are in a 20+ Mob
They won't outrun a Banner carrier so they can hit on 2+ if they want
They can take Rokkits or Big Shootas (you're never gonna take a Big Shoota so that last bit is a moot point)
They can all be armed with Shootas

Now, if you never planned on taking Shoota Boyz and don't care about the Banner (which isnt necessary) or having a few extra Rokkits, then yes. Stormboyz are flat out better in every way. You can even have a Warboss on a bike back them up if you dont want to risk their own Rokkit Paks. ALso you don't even have to pay a Boyz tax anymore as theres a Detachemnt that is basically all Fast Attack, so the Speed Freaks are back with a vengeance.

well I was thinking to start with you put a boss on a bike and get Zagstruk and you have two fast moving 30 boy mobz with good beatstick backc up and morale.

That being said....I missed the extra attack, and that banner thing is pretty insane. So I guess it comes down to speed vs attack and whether or not you are confident of getting mobs into range in order to take advantage of the extra attacks while there is 20 boyz in the mob.

Perhaps one mob of stormboyz and 2 mobs normal or 2 mobs of stormboyz and one of normal boys (and you can always teleport the one squad of boyz)

Just wanted to mention from another thread...

when a charging unit piles in to a new unit that wasn't one you charge, you can't swing at the new unit. You have to stand there and let them hit you while you do nothing.