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Sunrifle doesn't do anything. It only affects one round of melee. Hawks are more effective against T3 infantry than some other units, but regular Guardians are at least 25% more effective than them.

 Deathypoo wrote:
They just take the order to fall back and shoot if you try to "lock" them in close combat, and they already got to shoot overwatch at you, and attack you in close combat as well... you don't gain a whole lot by charging them unless you've got a unit that will actually kill them in close combat. Meanwhile you guarantee them a unit in their 12" rapid fire range.

I'd say it's a situational strategy at best (unless you have a melee unit/army, in which case conscripts make for a fine target)

I don't get your logic here.

If you don't assault them, they are going to shoot you twice each, hitting on 5's.
If you do assault them, they get to shoot once, hitting on 6's then the survivors of that combat shoot once hitting on 5's.

It's way better.

Clearly if you can stay out of their range and kite them around, killing 20+ conscripts a turn then fine. Do that! But the discussion stemmed from someone saying they couldn't do that.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Sunrifle doesn't do anything. It only affects one round of melee. Hawks are more effective against T3 infantry than some other units, but regular Guardians are at least 25% more effective than them.

Just reread sunrifle and sadly you're right (would it negate overwatch though?).
Considering the Guardians i disagree, Guardians either need a transport (~150 pts for a serpent) or die as soon as they get within 24" as they are unlikely to close to within 12" without getting shot up.
Summary: Screw conscripts. sadface.
I'll still try hawks against them

Anyone tried Shadow Spectres yet?

I'm thinking of getting a squad of 5 from FW.. Dont know if the Exarch is worth the extra money...

Spectres look quite good and flexible on paper. Fast moving heavy flamers fill a niche where Wraithguards with warpscythes would be overkill(+ spectres are cheaper)

And elite hunting might be funny when they are guided by a Farseer, ensuring more hits with the S6 AP-3 profile.

Sunrifle doesn't affect overwatch as it's a 6 regardless of modifiers.
If you can somehow soulburst your Hawks to shoot in the opponent's turn then it works for negating their shooting. Otherwise it just helps in the return melee from the charge.
Unfortunately. I feel like the sun rifle and nightfire missiles of the Phoenix would be just fine if it lasted until the start of the next eldar shooting phase. As it is there is little point in taking them for their ability.

Just reread sunrifle and sadly you're right (would it negate overwatch though?).

Nah, doesn't even do that since OW hits on 6 regardless of any modifiers.

I actually play Hawks, with all the buffs they can kill about 15 GEQ a turn, and with Soulburst they bring their points back, which I think just shows how atrocious they actually are at their job if you need to give them doom/autarch/soulburst and they still barely work. Their grenade pack is also almost but useless if enemy places their troops in at least more or less reasonable way and has anything to kick T3 elfs in melee after they try and jump over his unit. I think from all the herpaderp abilities that jump over one takes the cake.

Hawks were absolutely brilliant in previous edition with long range assault lasblasters, grenade pack that ignored cover and haywire grenades, I liked them even after 1 haywire grenade/unit fix, and it's painful to see what happened to them. Everything in their previous design made sense, from long range shooting to no-LOS blast and stuff, and everything in their new design makes no sense. You don't want expensive fragile elfs in rapid fire range, you really don't.

Shadow spectres are awesome. The two modes of fire are both great in certain circumstances. -1 to hit and 3+ armour can survive a decent amount of shooting, and flame mode makes them a daunting prospect to charge.

Add in guide and conceal from the psychic support and their abilities are both more powerful. Plus their 14 inch move and fly make them difficult to pin down and easy to get into soulburst range where they can just unleash a barrage again.

They have been high priority targets each game I have used them in. But does keep the heat off some more vulnerable units. I've been running mine in conjunction with warp spiders and hemlocks and sky runner warlocks to form a hard to hit flanking force that unleashes a boatload of strength 6 shots.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Shadow spectres are awesome. The two modes of fire are both great in certain circumstances. -1 to hit and 3+ armour can survive a decent amount of shooting, and flame mode makes them a daunting prospect to charge.

Add in guide and conceal from the psychic support and their abilities are both more powerful. Plus their 14 inch move and fly make them difficult to pin down and easy to get into soulburst range where they can just unleash a barrage again.

They have been high priority targets each game I have used them in. But does keep the heat off some more vulnerable units. I've been running mine in conjunction with warp spiders and hemlocks and sky runner warlocks to form a hard to hit flanking force that unleashes a boatload of strength 6 shots.

Splitting hairs here. Agree with it all.. BUT they move 12" Keep in mind that they do have assault weapons so you can advance as well to get that 14" move hahaha

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Selym wrote:

beachedwalrusau wrote:
Has anyone worked out how to beat horde armies in particular IG players who bring hordes of infantry with tank support? It is the only army i am finding almost impossible to win against.

Play objectives, and bring a tough ranged AT unit or three to hurt the tanks.

"Play Objectives" is much easier when they're spread out and Eldar can take advantage of their mobility. My last game with IG was "the relic" and he just sat 100 conscripts on it (had I moved to take it first, I wouldn't have been able to get away from a 400 dice triple buffed* conscript volley... so I decided to wait). In retrospect, I should have tried to soften the conscripts up with all my Shuriken Cannon fire every turn, but that would have meant leaving alive all the heavy weapons teams so... I dunno. By the time I made a final push to steal the relic away it was too late and I didn't have enough left to dent the blob.

I feel like guard deploys with more guardsmen than I have bullets (or... errr... sliced discs of mono-molecule spinning blades) and more tanks than I have AT weapon mounts. They're always going to be a hard match-up.

*Buffs: searchlights for +1BS, re-roll 1 aura, and frfsrf
-233 hits, 116 wounds (on T3 Eldar), and that's 71 dead guardians (hint, that's more than I had)

What gives them searchlights? Also, how did 100 of them get within 12" of the relic? Could you have screened and had a char pick it up? Relic is not the best scenario. Fun, but usually unbalanced.

What are peoples thoughts on the Aeldari Missile Launcher?

I'm mostly thinking of it as an option for War Walkers or possibly Wraithlords.

The 48" range and two fire modes means they will be able to lend fire support against pretty much any target they need to, while also being at a safe distance. The versatility seems like it will be good to support close range Ynnari units that might need help finishing off a unit for SfD. If some wraithcannons don't quite finish a tank- send the crack, if guardians leave a few infantry models alive- send the frag.

Compared with Lances they lose 2 AP and gain 12" range. Obviously not as good vs tanks and MCs that don't have invul saves although the extra range means you are less likely to have to move and suffer the -1 to hit.

Compared with Scatterlasers the frag will give you 0.5 less shots but in most cases the +1 to wound from scats is canceled by the -1 AP from frag (T5 is the exception here). 12" better range helps again.

Eldar are usually all about specialization, but that seems more important for units with short range, I think long range fire support can afford to be more general purpose (particularly if you don't have a lot of it).

The closest unit to compare AML War Walkers too is probably the Night Spinner,both have long range, general purpose firepower. You get 2 spinners for the price of 3 walkers and I'm not sure which comes out on top.

Thoughts?


EDIT: With Guide and Doom the frag from 3 War Walkers should kill about 15 conscripts. Problem solved lol.

Note that the Bright Lance is almost exactly as good as the AML using sunburst missiles against MEQs, and is significantly better against vehicles than the starshot missile.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Note that the Bright Lance is almost exactly as good as the AML using sunburst missiles against MEQs, and is significantly better against vehicles than the starshot missile.

Yeah the AMLs two fire modes seem suited to either hordes or tanks, they don't do so well vs stuff in the middle. Tanks/MCs with invul saves have been a real problem for me using any army, the AMLs don't do any better vs those things than lances, but I don't feel like my weapons are being neutered as much haha.

Wierdly, thinking about this has made me like scatterwalkers more, as hordes seem harder to deal with than tanks for my Eldar lists. They're just bad though.

I have been trying Striking Scorpions lately because I like their fluff and models, but thus far they haven't been performing, and I'm not quite sure what to specifically use them again. I may need to swap them out sadly.

I really need to get some Dark Reapers though, because they seem amazing. At the moment I am really thinking of reworking my army to be mostly Wraith units instead.

Wayniac wrote:
I really need to get some Dark Reapers though, because they seem amazing. At the moment I am really thinking of reworking my army to be mostly Wraith units instead.

Reapers, Dragons and Wraiths in Wave Serpents seem to be our optimum units at the moment. Dragons are cheaper than Wraithguard so I would take them for hunting big game while the Wraithguard take D-scythes and concentrate on frying MEQs etc. Shuricannons on the Wave Serpents provide some cheap horde control without hindering mobility. Reapers can threaten most targets quite well and are particularly good against flyers as they ignore the -1 to hit penalty. Add a Flyer of our own (probably the Hemlock) and maybe a Wraithlord or 2 and we are all set. It i just a case of choosing which HQs suit the build best and off we go.

The following is a 100 power list so approximately 2000 points (depending on how you juggle upgrades)

 Grizzyzz wrote:


Splitting hairs here. Agree with it all.. BUT they move 12" Keep in mind that they do have assault weapons so you can advance as well to get that 14" move hahaha

Haha right you are. Not sure where I got 14 from. Even still, plenty manouverable.

Power level changes a lot when you get into the nitty gritty of list optimization. All the skimmers get more expensive than you would normally run them, wraithlords come out a bit cheaper and Dire Avengers are actually ok. A lot of the aspects are terrible at any cost.

I have to do 100PL for the Throne of Skulls I'm going too at Warhammer World and it's very annoyng.

Yeah, I was toying with PL for my Ynnari list and things didn't look good. It seemed very hard to justify most Craftworld stuff since you want to transport it all and Wave Serpents get so much more expensive. Hemlocks are slightly cheaper.

Meanwhile Dark Eldar win big with PL. A minimal Blasterborn squad is 13% cheaper, and then you get free upgrades on the dracon and can replace two of the blasters with dark lances, still paying 5 power for 142 points. Their Venoms get a free upgrade to a second splinter cannon. You save 30 points on fully-loaded Razorwing Jetfighters.

Harlequin Troupes also work out to be significantly cheaper if you're giving them all fusion pistols and power weapons.

 Karhedron wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I really need to get some Dark Reapers though, because they seem amazing. At the moment I am really thinking of reworking my army to be mostly Wraith units instead.

Reapers, Dragons and Wraiths in Wave Serpents seem to be our optimum units at the moment. Dragons are cheaper than Wraithguard so I would take them for hunting big game while the Wraithguard take D-scythes and concentrate on frying MEQs etc. Shuricannons on the Wave Serpents provide some cheap horde control without hindering mobility. Reapers can threaten most targets quite well and are particularly good against flyers as they ignore the -1 to hit penalty. Add a Flyer of our own (probably the Hemlock) and maybe a Wraithlord or 2 and we are all set. It i just a case of choosing which HQs suit the build best and off we go.

Hemlock is amazing. I like the crimson hunter but it is just inferior to the hemlock.

Wraithlords are meh. Really dependant on the match up I've found. Still they aren't high on the kill list so can get work done.

Hq it is hard to go past the eldar psykers. Farseer brings doom which is one of our biggest weapon. Warlocks and conceal are cheap and handy and yvraine with the word of the Phoenix and a targetable (albeit more difficult to cast) smite is great support.

Wyldcarde wrote:

Wraithlords are meh. Really dependant on the match up I've found. Still they aren't high on the kill list so can get work done.

Hq it is hard to go past the eldar psykers. Farseer brings doom which is one of our biggest weapon. Warlocks and conceal are cheap and handy and yvraine with the word of the Phoenix and a targetable (albeit more difficult to cast) smite is great support.

Psykers are good but the Autarch is fairly cheap for the reroll 1s bubble. I quite like pairing a Wraithlord with 2 heavy weapons (I like Braightlances) with some Dark Reapers and an Autarch. The whole lot gets to reroll 1s when shooting and the Wraithlord can threaten stuff with heavy armour like Land Raiders. If the enemy Deep Strikes nearby, the Wraithlord can keep them off the Reapers' backs. Even Terminators will get a bruising from a Wraithlord.

Yeah fair call. Don't get me wrong autarches have their uses but I would rather be throwing around "shoot twice" then reroll ones on my dark reapers and definitely prefer doom to anything any of the other hq bring to the table.

And yeah wraithlords do have a place. I haven't been disappointed by them but I haven't been blown away by them either. Then again I tend to use mine not as a stationary gun platform and then the -1 to hit on the heavy weapons is off putting. But I can see how that becomes a solid and synergistic firebase.

The Autarch is not quite worth it for the rerolls alone but can do a bit of extra work however you set them up. Might as well give him a reaper launcher if he's hanging back. Wings allow him to skyleap then grab an objective late game. I'm a big fan of the laserlance + fusion gun skyrunner for assassinating heavy weapon teams/characters then running off with soulburst.

xmbk wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Selym wrote:

beachedwalrusau wrote:
Has anyone worked out how to beat horde armies in particular IG players who bring hordes of infantry with tank support? It is the only army i am finding almost impossible to win against.

Play objectives, and bring a tough ranged AT unit or three to hurt the tanks.

"Play Objectives" is much easier when they're spread out and Eldar can take advantage of their mobility. My last game with IG was "the relic" and he just sat 100 conscripts on it (had I moved to take it first, I wouldn't have been able to get away from a 400 dice triple buffed* conscript volley... so I decided to wait). In retrospect, I should have tried to soften the conscripts up with all my Shuriken Cannon fire every turn, but that would have meant leaving alive all the heavy weapons teams so... I dunno. By the time I made a final push to steal the relic away it was too late and I didn't have enough left to dent the blob.

I feel like guard deploys with more guardsmen than I have bullets (or... errr... sliced discs of mono-molecule spinning blades) and more tanks than I have AT weapon mounts. They're always going to be a hard match-up.

*Buffs: searchlights for +1BS, re-roll 1 aura, and frfsrf
-233 hits, 116 wounds (on T3 Eldar), and that's 71 dead guardians (hint, that's more than I had)

What gives them searchlights? Also, how did 100 of them get within 12" of the relic? Could you have screened and had a char pick it up? Relic is not the best scenario. Fun, but usually unbalanced.

Forgeworld has sabre defense platforms with searchlights for a stupidly cheap points cost.

The deployment maps all allow you to deploy within 12" of the relic at worst or 9" at best. Even if the back of the unit is out of range, they do have a 6" move before shooting.

Does the defense platform move? Seems as though it's either 4+ or 2 shots.

xmbk wrote:
Does the defense platform move? Seems as though it's either 4+ or 2 shots.

Not sure we're on the same page? 2x shots comes from frfsrf order from an officer, or from rapid fire, or 4x from both. The 4+ to hit comes from the searchlights on a sabre defense platform.

The defense platform doesn't move, but it grants any one unit a +1 to their BS when shooting at any one other unit, decided each turn. Thanks to a faq they can't stack on the same target, but 6 different platforms can give 6 different units +1 BS in a turn.

They need los to the target, but my table unfortunately doesn't have a lot of full los blockers. Also, my opponent took 6 of them so good luck staying out of los even on a more crowded table.

 Deathypoo wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Does the defense platform move? Seems as though it's either 4+ or 2 shots.

Not sure we're on the same page? 2x shots comes from frfsrf order from an officer, or from rapid fire, or 4x from both. The 4+ to hit comes from the searchlights on a sabre defense platform.

The defense platform doesn't move, but it grants any one unit a +1 to their BS when shooting at any one other unit, decided each turn. Thanks to a faq they can't stack on the same target, but 6 different platforms can give 6 different units +1 BS in a turn.

They need los to the target, but my table unfortunately doesn't have a lot of full los blockers. Also, my opponent took 6 of them so good luck staying out of los even on a more crowded table.

Just remember that overwatch is not effected by any modifiers! Maybe this never comes into play for you.. but certainly could be misplayed!

Yeah, I assumed they had to be on it. Not sure of the cost, but I'd likely ask someone not to field that in a friendly game. Hopefully the better tournaments will address stuff like that. It's better than markerlights. With Apoc models now being a part of the base rules, I really don't see the point of FW.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Shadow spectres are awesome. The two modes of fire are both great in certain circumstances. -1 to hit and 3+ armour can survive a decent amount of shooting, and flame mode makes them a daunting prospect to charge.

Add in guide and conceal from the psychic support and their abilities are both more powerful. Plus their 14 inch move and fly make them difficult to pin down and easy to get into soulburst range where they can just unleash a barrage again.

They have been high priority targets each game I have used them in. But does keep the heat off some more vulnerable units. I've been running mine in conjunction with warp spiders and hemlocks and sky runner warlocks to form a hard to hit flanking force that unleashes a boatload of strength 6 shots.

I'm just wondering, what size squads did you run them at?

I know they are 3+ right now, but I get the feeling running them as only 3 per unit will just have them shot off the table in no time.

Additionally, what weapon did you give the Exarch? I'm not sure its worth it to upgrade to the Prism Blaster or Heywire Blaster at all given how good the regular weapon is.

I run full squad of 10. But that's to maximise soulburst and guide and easier keep them in conceal. I don't think 3 man units would be great but there might be some value in 2x 5 or 6 man units. Morale isn't so much an issue for them either.

I've been trying the blaster for a bit more oomph against the hard targets but not convinced it is worth losing flame mode for. Gives them a bit more versatility tho.

Wyldcarde wrote:
I run full squad of 10. But that's to maximise soulburst and guide and easier keep them in conceal. I don't think 3 man units would be great but there might be some value in 2x 5 or 6 man units. Morale isn't so much an issue for them either.

I've been trying the blaster for a bit more oomph against the hard targets but not convinced it is worth losing flame mode for. Gives them a bit more versatility tho.

Did you run one squad of 10 then? Or did you double up? (For 20?)

One squad of 10 but would definitely like to double up.
I've been playing around with 1 squad of spectres and 2 of warp spiders but thing the spectres are better for the slight extra point increase. But then there's the cost factor and difficulty to get factor to grab more spectres.

Plus I still like warp spiders for their 4d6 extra move option. Great to soulburst with that.