Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

CassianSol wrote:


Saying what is and isn't an optimal list before the codex is even out is a bit much.

....

As I say, in practice it could transpire that the Rubricae are rubbish. But they have objectively improved upon the index.

Ya. Right now most Rubric spammers, myself included, are salty.

I think it's mostly from being able to run a brigade army of goats, mutaliths, and daemon princes with no marines at all and how Thousand Sons will rarely field any Thousand Sons based on how things look.

The one thing I think most people are mad about (Aside from the Index Soulcannon Copy/Paste ) is there is no Strat that says "Pay CP: Rubric Marines do something better". We have Tzaangors attack again at the end of combat (Which is the only Tzaangor specific strat), several strats that help melee (Vengence for Prospero and Boons), and several Turn your Sorcerers into not sorcerers. A 1 or 2 CP Rubric shooting strat would have probably shut us up, to be honest.

At the end of the day, the people who want to win will run Magnus, Lord of Goats, the people who want to have a chance will add in some Tzaangor, and the neurotic fluffydustybois will just run 2000 of Rubric marines and force themselves to have fun. It's what happened in 7th and it will probably be what happens now.

TLDR: Rubric Spammers feel like GW Spit in their face. Time will tell if they did, but it still feels bad now, so we're ranting and venting.

 nintura wrote:
Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.

So the exact same problem literally every flavor of SM has been running into?

An optimal list this edition isn't heavily using elite infantry, it doesn't matter the army. If you didn't have gors, rubrics would be getting overshadowed by cultist, or brimstones.

Be glad you aren't custodes or vanilla SM, where your optimal build involves at least a battalion of guardsmen.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.

Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.

Having 6 Gor units to every 1 Rubricae unit does.

 Kirak wrote:

CassianSol wrote:


Saying what is and isn't an optimal list before the codex is even out is a bit much.

....

As I say, in practice it could transpire that the Rubricae are rubbish. But they have objectively improved upon the index.

Ya. Right now most Rubric spammers, myself included, are salty.

I think it's mostly from being able to run a brigade army of goats, mutaliths, and daemon princes with no marines at all and how Thousand Sons will rarely field any Thousand Sons based on how things look.

The one thing I think most people are mad about (Aside from the Index Soulcannon Copy/Paste ) is there is no Strat that says "Pay CP: Rubric Marines do something better". We have Tzaangors attack again at the end of combat (Which is the only Tzaangor specific strat), several strats that help melee (Vengence for Prospero and Boons), and several Turn your Sorcerers into not sorcerers. A 1 or 2 CP Rubric shooting strat would have probably shut us up, to be honest.

At the end of the day, the people who want to win will run Magnus, Lord of Goats, the people who want to have a chance will add in some Tzaangor, and the neurotic fluffydustybois will just run 2000 of Rubric marines and force themselves to have fun. It's what happened in 7th and it will probably be what happens now.

TLDR: Rubric Spammers feel like GW Spit in their face. Time will tell if they did, but it still feels bad now, so we're ranting and venting.

Couldn’t have said it better!

People saying you shouldn’t feel the way you do but not understanding or caring why you feel that way as if anyone on this forum “should” feel in any way

 nintura wrote:
Interesting note on the fluff in the codex. The Yvrainne raises some of the Rubrics back to their human forms.

That happened in the Fracture of Biel-Tan, Yvraine brought 3 of them back to flesh and blood then promptly dumped them out the webway into the Warp to get Ahriman to follow after them.

Guyver 3 wrote:
Couldn’t have said it better!

People saying you shouldn’t feel the way you do but not understanding or caring why you feel that way as if anyone on this forum “should” feel in any way

If you do nothing but complain despite getting one of the best fleshed out codices this edition and an expanded army list with new units, you should expect people to mock you at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Interesting note on the fluff in the codex. The Yvrainne raises some of the Rubrics back to their human forms.

That happened in the Fracture of Biel-Tan, Yvraine brought 3 of them back to flesh and blood then promptly dumped them out the webway into the Warp to get Ahriman to follow after them.

One of the best bits, you can feel how upset Ahriman was to see them torn away so suddenly.

SilverAlien wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.

So the exact same problem literally every flavor of SM has been running into?

An optimal list this edition isn't heavily using elite infantry, it doesn't matter the army. If you didn't have gors, rubrics would be getting overshadowed by cultist, or brimstones.

Be glad you aren't custodes or vanilla SM, where your optimal build involves at least a battalion of guardsmen.

LMAO literally admit its a problem.

Then say shut up and deal.

How about no.

How about we figure out how to fix this problem rather then just accept it.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
LMAO literally admit its a problem.

Then say shut up and deal.

How about no.

How about we figure out how to fix this problem rather then just accept it.

Alright, the fix is changing the cover and morale rules, plus the way detachments and CP work. Rubrics will also need a different unique ability as the situational 2+ is part of the issue with cover and why all 3+ units pay such a premium. In other words, it isn't getting fixed this edition.

Again though, the tsons still have one of the best codices we've seen so far, even if one whole unit isn't doing that great under this edition. It's a non issue basically, and crying constantly in every thread about that one tiny flaw is absurdly annoying. I keep popping in for actual leaks and its nothing but constant crying from spoiled children who didn't get things absolutely perfect.

I do kind of wish that both the death guard and 1ksons codices were more like the maggotkin or disciples battletomes from AOS in which the marine legion was 1/3 of the book but by restricting yourself to the legion you'd get better boons. Another 3rd could be the daemons and the final 3rd would be the things like gors and tzeentch aligned marines that weren't rubric.

That said I'm fine with what we're getting. Sure I would have liked a 40k analogue for my Osiron or the sorcerer lord in terminator armor but I wasn't expecting it really. I might start running the Osiron as a daemon prince or something.
Admittedly the crowd I've been playing 8th with isn't the most cutthroat of metas but my rubrics have been holding their own and I'll keep bringing plenty of them.
I run my 1ksons more as a legion force that got lost in the warp so I'll probably avoid the crazier daemon engines or tzaangors but it might also be fun to run a gor herd led by a converted daemon prince to look like a large tzaangor. Might use the Malifaux Carrion Emissary as a base...hmmm bad ideas forming. And that alt hungering darkness would make a great victim of the flesh change.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.

Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.

Having 6 Gor units to every 1 Rubricae unit does.

If you're taking 6 gor units then you're opting for enlightened bows over inferno bolters.

18 bows and a shaman is near 400 points.

MEQ - 10.0W
GEQ - 14.6W

If we got the soulreaper in 5 back - 7 w/ SR, 6 w/ SR, and exalted comes in under 400

MEQ - 6.6W
GEQ - 10.0W

Ugg, terrible! Yet...rapid fire..

MEQ - 9.2W
GEQ - 15.4W

That's a lot closer (bearing in mind these numbers totally omit the asp sorcerer's gun), but then being in rapid fire range takes time and bears risk, but then I have 2+/3+,4++/5++ and three casters to your one.

Why if someone were to shoot four newly point reduced autocannons at them...

Tzaangors - 2.4 dead (40points)
Rubrics - 1.7 dead (35 points)

And 10 RF Storm Bolters...

Tzaangors - 4.5 dead
Rubrics - 2.2 dead

Take Rubrics to hold objectives. Park a unit of at least 10 with a healthy number of warpflamers on an objective and watch them melt any other Objective Secured units that try to contest it (other than maybe Leman Russ tanks in a Guard army).

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.

Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.

Having 6 Gor units to every 1 Rubricae unit does.

If you're taking 6 gor units then you're opting for enlightened bows over inferno bolters.

18 bows and a shaman is near 400 points.

MEQ - 10.0W
GEQ - 14.6W

If we got the soulreaper in 5 back - 7 w/ SR, 6 w/ SR, and exalted comes in under 400

MEQ - 6.6W
GEQ - 10.0W

Ugg, terrible! Yet...rapid fire..

MEQ - 9.2W
GEQ - 15.4W

That's a lot closer (bearing in mind these numbers totally omit the asp sorcerer's gun), but then being in rapid fire range takes time and bears risk, but then I have 2+/3+,4++/5++ and three casters to your one.

Why if someone were to shoot four newly point reduced autocannons at them...

Tzaangors - 2.4 dead (40points)
Rubrics - 1.7 dead (35 points)

And 10 RF Storm Bolters...

Tzaangors - 4.5 dead
Rubrics - 2.2 dead

So in most situations the gors do more damage(and we aren't even considering high toughness targets, which the gors will crush the rubicae), and are so much more mobile that to even compare them would be like dividing by zero. I don't know what games most people play, but we tend to play ITC matches here and mobility crushes. The downside is they are somewhat more fragile. Funny enough, the gors even deny their opponent to rapid fire against them due to range differences...so I don't even know if I'd call them more fragile.

And the rubrics require a FAQ for the comparison to even happen.

All hail the beaked goat overlords!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.

Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.

Uhhhh......... what? Conscripts and Tanks are IG. It's what they are known for. Your argument is like me saying taking Tactical Marines with a couple Predator tanks does not make it a Marine army supported by Tanks....


Now, if you had said 10 marines and 30 guard, then yes, It's a guard army supported by marines.

 Bulldogging wrote:


So in most situations the gors do more damage(and we aren't even considering high toughness targets, which the gors will crush the rubicae), and are so much more mobile that to even compare them would be like dividing by zero. I don't know what games most people play, but we tend to play ITC matches here and mobility crushes. The downside is they are somewhat more fragile. Funny enough, the gors even deny their opponent to rapid fire against them due to range differences...so I don't even know if I'd call them more fragile.

And the rubrics require a FAQ for the comparison to even happen.

All hail the beaked goat overlords!

Yep they are very mobile and the auto-wounds are fantastic on tanks. 8 wounds to T7 3+. Rubrics need VotLW to approach that and even then won't make it unless in RF range. But I don't use Rubrics to hunt tanks unless I need to pull off a handful of wounds. More importantly the rubrics will always be harder to kill - especially in cover. Enlightened will never have cover and will be the biggest target, because one loss from morale = 2 wounds.

Brian888 wrote:
Take Rubrics to hold objectives. Park a unit of at least 10 with a healthy number of warpflamers on an objective and watch them melt any other Objective Secured units that try to contest it (other than maybe Leman Russ tanks in a Guard army).

250 point objective holders?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
Take Rubrics to hold objectives. Park a unit of at least 10 with a healthy number of warpflamers on an objective and watch them melt any other Objective Secured units that try to contest it (other than maybe Leman Russ tanks in a Guard army).

250 point objective holders?

That are very hard to shift and incredibly lethal at short-range? Sure.

Are warpflamer rubrics even that hard to shift? Is a single warpflamer rubric more durable than 8 infantrymen?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Are warpflamer rubrics even that hard to shift? Is a single warpflamer rubric more durable than 8 infantrymen?

Depends, what are the 8 infantry men armed with? Against lasguns, certainly. I ran it through mathhammer, and 16 lasgun shots on average will not kill a model with the rubric's stat line.
16 boltgun shots on average won't kill it either.
16 gauss / bolt rifle shots on average might though.

Brian888 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
Take Rubrics to hold objectives. Park a unit of at least 10 with a healthy number of warpflamers on an objective and watch them melt any other Objective Secured units that try to contest it (other than maybe Leman Russ tanks in a Guard army).

250 point objective holders?

That are very hard to shift and incredibly lethal at short-range? Sure.

True true or just put 20 Alpha legion cultists for 1/3 the points

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Are warpflamer rubrics even that hard to shift? Is a single warpflamer rubric more durable than 8 infantrymen?

Depends, what are the 8 infantry men armed with? Against lasguns, certainly. I ran it through mathhammer, and 16 lasgun shots on average will not kill a model with the rubric's stat line.
16 boltgun shots on average won't kill it either.
16 gauss / bolt rifle shots on average might though.

...Damn, this math makes me feel REALLY unlucky. My Rubrics drop all over the place to weight of fire. :(

This is the good unit vs optimal unit argument again

Rubrics May be a good unit but they are not optimal. The argument that they will shrug off most low st low ap shots is redundant as most opponents bring anti elite guns as well as anti tank both of which will kill rubrics easily.

Thinking about it, I wonder if Enlightened pair better with Rubricae/Scarab Occult than with Tzaangors. The enemy has to run out of 2 damage shots eventually, right?

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Are warpflamer rubrics even that hard to shift? Is a single warpflamer rubric more durable than 8 infantrymen?

Depends, what are the 8 infantry men armed with? Against lasguns, certainly. I ran it through mathhammer, and 16 lasgun shots on average will not kill a model with the rubric's stat line.
16 boltgun shots on average won't kill it either.
16 gauss / bolt rifle shots on average might though.

...Damn, this math makes me feel REALLY unlucky. My Rubrics drop all over the place to weight of fire. :(

Yeah, that's dice for you. Damned things never obey the averages
I find that cognitive bias also plays a role, as the brain naturally only remembers rare unfavorable outcomes whilst "forgetting" about more common positive outcomes. You can save 1000 wounds, but you will remember that one failure as it doesn't follow the usual pattern and has a downside. Its part of a survival mechanism, I believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thinking about it, I wonder if Enlightened pair better with Rubricae/Scarab Occult than with Tzaangors. The enemy has to run out of 2 damage shots eventually, right?

Probably. Forcing your opponent to split target priorities is always a good decision.

Guyver 3 wrote:
This is the good unit vs optimal unit argument again

Rubrics May be a good unit but they are not optimal. The argument that they will shrug off most low st low ap shots is redundant as most opponents bring anti elite guns as well as anti tank both of which will kill rubrics easily.

That depends on how you measure effectiveness. If your only measure is raw damage output, sure. Just don't be mad if either enlightened get a hike or rubrics get a drop in the future and you built your whole list around a single kit.

What are the changes to Magnus?

 D6Damager wrote:
What are the changes to Magnus?

No reroll to invul, knows an extra spell, apparently creates an aura that stops TS casters from perils on a double 1.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:
What are the changes to Magnus?

No reroll to invul, knows an extra spell, apparently creates an aura that stops TS casters from perils on a double 1.

+30 points

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:
What are the changes to Magnus?

No reroll to invul, knows an extra spell, apparently creates an aura that stops TS casters from perils on a double 1.

Reroll 1s on psy test you can still perils but its like 3/1296 so unlikely event

Personally, i'd love to play an all 1ksons army, but I'm not too disappointed because I never had the expectation that it'd be possible. I don't really expect ANY all power armor force to be viable this edition. The large scale changes to AP and bolters killed that awhile back (went from old rules ap5 meant standard bolter ignored 5+. Now they do not. Bolters should have been ap-1. If they were, stuff like tacticals and vanilla csm would be useful.)

Rubrics solve this problem to some extent with their ap-2. But their speed and vulnerability to melee just leaves them too inflexible compared to other equivalent units. For example, compare Scarabs with regular chaos terminators with Combi-plasma. The combi-plasma terms cost a little bit more, but their performance is staggeringly better, and they can effectively fight literally anything. And they aren't stuck with only powerswords. Having axes and fists in the unit is a huge deal for standing up in melee.

What I really would have liked to see is a rule or strat to let rubrics and scarabs fall back and still shoot. This would have let them be a bit less vulnerable to melee without making them offensively powerful as melee. Instead, we have to play a ton of tzaangors to screen or bail them out.

The other cult marines are much more well rounded as units then Rubrics now, even with the psychic powers. Noise marines have enough shots to kill things with weight of fire, and then still have 2 attacks and shoot on death to punish close combat units. Berzerkers are best in class for melee. Plague marines have more survivability than Rubrics, more weapon options, and much better army and strat synergy. But while the other cult troops are all nasty in their own right, there are very few armies that can be built around them due to overall problems with MeQ this edition (except alpha legion berzerkers maybe, but even those lists are funky.) It's that whole good vs optimal thing another poster mentioned.

In other words, what I'm saying is that power armor and marines just ain't what they used to be, and that's the real problem with a pure 1ksons army.

Looks like Tzaangors are what Kroot always dreamt of to be