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Arachnofiend wrote: Well, time to get mad I guess. ZERO synergy options designed for Rubricae. Meanwhile tzaangors get +1 to hit and the cheapest fight twice stratagem in the game.
I take back what I said before, this is in fact Codex: Tzaangors.
The question is how much did you spend a little over a year ago on an army that has little to no use now?
For me it was about 200US for a box of Exalted, 2 Scarabs, and the 7th Codex to go with the NINE SQUADS OF RUBRICS I ALREADY HAD, so I'm slightly salty.
Spoiler:
Three Squads are unassembled. These will eventually end up being the Rubric Havocs
I am disappointed and will look through the book first before I inevitably buy it because I have a problem, and then making some Open Play datasheets for Rubric Havocs.
But over all, it doesn't look too bad. We have at least two good relics, 18 powers to choose from so everybody will be able to do something, and hopefully GW will change Rubrics to be able to take Soulfire cannons in squads of 5 like they can in the regular chaos dex. The third may not happen but 2/3 is good, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/27 06:40:34
I think the biggest disappointment is the revelation that Aspiring/Scarab Occult Sorcerers can ONLY take from the Discipline of Change. If Rubrics could provide their own Prescience then that would be an argument for them, but the only spells that synergize with squads of Rubricae are Weaver of Fates and Glamour of Tzeentch, both of which you can't put on your Rubric squads because Magnus needs to cast them on himself.
What's with all the moaning about Scarabs/Rubics? Both units are getting better with more casting options, more mobility and some tasty support units.
A full squad of Rubics arriving via web-way then Glamer of Tzeetching itself is quite tasty, with the option of Prescience, Reroll auras and Vets of the long war, if you really want to deal the pain. Land them in cover (not necessarily easy given the size of the unit) and they are neigh on impossible to shift except in assault.
The goats seem good, yes but seem like they will rely on combining multiple units/buffs to be effective where the marines can self buff and work relatively independently of the rest of your force.
Not entirely convinced by the Mutilith, 4+ save is a significant disadvantage compared to say a Maulerfiend, that I don't think 2 wounds make up for. But those Buffs are super tasty, especially if your fielding some larger units , or manage to get multiple beasts in the enemy lines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/27 08:10:59
Astmeister wrote: Will there be a tzaangor hq in case you want to play without thousand sons? I have purely desciples of tzeentch and want to play them in 40k.
No, and thank god for that. The Tzaangor Shaman is an elite choice, you have to run at least one real Thousand Sons unit if you want to play your goat herd.
I don't know why people think Rubrics haven't gotten better. The extension of spell range is very beneficial for buffing them, the Mutalith is beneficial, they can deep strike, their sorcerors get more powers (and the sorcerors themselves are cheaper, I understand). Plus the aura effects of the leaders are better (Exalted sorcerors I haven't heard about yet). They were already solid units, they are gently better.
Scarab Occult Terminators I'm much less certain about. They always flatter to deceive. But with more actual threats and greater support if they choose to deep strike aggressively they are still better than they were.
As for complaining because you bought nine boxes of Rubricae... well that's on you. I don't know what you expected.
I don't know why people think Rubrics haven't gotten better. The extension of spell range is very beneficial for buffing them, the Mutalith is beneficial, they can deep strike, their sorcerors get more powers (and the sorcerors themselves are cheaper, I understand). Plus the aura effects of the leaders are better (Exalted sorcerors I haven't heard about yet). They were already solid units, they are gently better.
Scarab Occult Terminators I'm much less certain about. They always flatter to deceive. But with more actual threats and greater support if they choose to deep strike aggressively they are still better than they were.
As for complaining because you bought nine boxes of Rubricae... well that's on you. I don't know what you expected.
I think people are complaining they can't play the army they are used to, and GW has really doubled down on the chaff instead of making TS themselves a better option.
Yes, Rubricae are slightly better and there's now new ways to buff them. It should be said that things like the Mutalith is a priority target that won't last in most games.
I have 60 Rubrics in a carrying case and would love to play them as a single force. The Codex doesn't make me want to pull them out and play them.
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
Why ever take rubrics? They are junk. 30x tzaangor bombs hits on 2+ from an aura, and get +1 to wound from the strategem. And they charge on an 8" off a deepstrike. Can you can warptime them. And you can deepstrike them from either strategems or relics. What a joke. hitting an 8" charge on 2d6 rerolling 1 dice from a CP is like 70-80%. And the other tzaangor bomb can warptime. And if you have CP, they fight twice for 2CP.
You just spent ALL of your CP and your shaman has to fly over. Let me know when you pull all that off simultaneously. Especially if Magnus gets dropped.
The reason for Rubrics hasn't changed. AP2 bolter, 2+/3+ with a path to 3++, and a sorcerer that got MORE useful.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/27 13:09:38
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
So you'd rather show up, take an hour to setup a game and deploy, knowing you're playing an underpowered army and likely lose? And that sounds fun? I'm not saying every game needs to be waac, but if you can't really win, why play at all?
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
So you'd rather show up, take an hour to setup a game and deploy, knowing you're playing an underpowered army and likely lose? And that sounds fun? I'm not saying every game needs to be waac, but if you can't really win, why play at all?
I did not know you were a psyker and could foresee all your losses. Are all the matches you play 'kill points'?
If you answered no to these questions then you have a reason to play this army. You DON'T know you're going to lose until the dice starts to roll.
A mediocre army CAN win with a SKILLED pilot who goes for objectives.
As for the codex I am disappointed there wasn’t one stratagem for rubrics or terminators. Veterans of the long war is good and very useful but they could have easily written in something like
“4 cp a unit of terminators or rubrics by increase their damage from inferno bolters or combo bolters by 1.”
Just so you could look at something and delete it.
I won’t say it’s a mediocre army it’s just an army that can’t be just sorcerors, rubrics and terminators.
You can have a very strong army so long as you want to bring in allies or goats. Regular CSM and demons benefit us greatly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/27 14:51:19
Astmeister wrote: Will there be a tzaangor hq in case you want to play without thousand sons? I have purely desciples of tzeentch and want to play them in 40k.
No, and thank god for that. The Tzaangor Shaman is an elite choice, you have to run at least one real Thousand Sons unit if you want to play your goat herd.
Okay in this case i will play a demon prince with the tzaangors. I don't want to start TS for real and having an exalted TS sorcerer commanding a beast herd feels wrong.
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
So you'd rather show up, take an hour to setup a game and deploy, knowing you're playing an underpowered army and likely lose? And that sounds fun? I'm not saying every game needs to be waac, but if you can't really win, why play at all?
I don't think they are underpowered. So I don't agree with your premise.
It may well transpire that they are, but based on the evidence presented thus far, they are significantly stronger than before. The biggest impediment we had was a lack of mobility which has been somewhat alleviated through 9" warptime, the crystal and the deep strike stratagem. Note, I use Rubric heavy TS armies. The Rubric marines and Scarab Occult Terminators are probably the best kits in the 40k range. I have never used a Tzaangor. Until recently I haven't found a good scheme to paint those far-too detailed models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/27 15:16:37
I'm really not on the salt train here. One of the things that I always found lacking in Sons lists was Tzeentch character. I've always loved the figs and fluff for the Rubrics, but that was pretty much it for themed stuff other than demons. Personally, I need something more than "it's competitive" to see me through the collecting and painting of a whole army, so I'm very pleased with all the Tzaangor stuff (and the Mutalith being included).
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
So you'd rather show up, take an hour to setup a game and deploy, knowing you're playing an underpowered army and likely lose? And that sounds fun? I'm not saying every game needs to be waac, but if you can't really win, why play at all?
I don't think they are underpowered. So I don't agree with your premise.
It may well transpire that they are, but based on the evidence presented thus far, they are significantly stronger than before. The biggest impediment we had was a lack of mobility which has been somewhat alleviated through 9" warptime, the crystal and the deep strike stratagem. Note, I use Rubric heavy TS armies. The Rubric marines and Scarab Occult Terminators are probably the best kits in the 40k range. I have never used a Tzaangor. Until recently I haven't found a good scheme to paint those far-too detailed models.
+1 to this! have an exalt.
Overall the codex taken as a whole is seeming like a great book, I get the complaints of "you cant spam 60 rubrics with some sorcerers and have it work!" Which is true, I own 40 rubrics, however I regularly use about half, 20-30 give or take in most lists of 1500-2000. and I pull a decent win/loss ratio WITH THE INDEX.
So somehow looking at me and saying "oh yeah rubrics are so terri-bad" in the new book does not make logical sense when they received nothing but buffs, the sorcerer is free, gained a spell from change (admittedly 2 of them are useful on the regular, the rest will require bigger badder sorcerers to cast them) and access to one of the best strategems in the GAME, "Vets of the Long War" alone makes are already deadly guns incredibly dangerous to anything below toughness value 8.
Rubrics have the same issue custodes, grey knights, death watch, and all other "elite" armies have....they are a super elite list in an edition that does not benefit super elite lists.
Scarab Occult got a straight buff. the same unit is now 20 points cheaper. and has access to stratagem options, again that o'l workhorse VOTLW will do its job, however the Scarab Occult suffer one major issue; They are Terminators in a time when Terminators ACROSS THE BOARD are not particularly impressive, Ours will do fine and I think they will hold their weight well in most lists; Given that PPM they are about the same as any other tooled out terminator squad now? AND come with a free spell caster?...Yeah I am fairly pleased.
My primary and biggest annoyances in the book are a few design decisions that while they dont harm the army as a whole are incredibly annoying and foolish, but the book is still an 8 outta 10 ya know? its still a pretty great book overall.
Ate there alternate color schemes in the book? I want to do a Rogue cabal that is pro mutation and spawn. I would assume GW woukd list few examples to fill out the fluff pages.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Ate there alternate color schemes in the book? I want to do a Rogue cabal that is pro mutation and spawn. I would assume GW woukd list few examples to fill out the fluff pages.
Ahriman21 wrote: Overall the codex taken as a whole is seeming like a great book, I get the complaints of "you cant spam 60 rubrics with some sorcerers and have it work!" Which is true, I own 40 rubrics, however I regularly use about half, 20-30 give or take in most lists of 1500-2000. and I pull a decent win/loss ratio WITH THE INDEX.
You misunderstand the complaints.
Its not that you can't spam rubrics-its that you HAVE to take gors, because everything in the codex is geared directly to support them.
Not taking gors in just consciously weakening your list.
Ahriman21 wrote: So somehow looking at me and saying "oh yeah rubrics are so terri-bad" in the new book does not make logical sense when they received nothing but buffs, the sorcerer is free, gained a spell from change (admittedly 2 of them are useful on the regular, the rest will require bigger badder sorcerers to cast them) and access to one of the best strategems in the GAME, "Vets of the Long War" alone makes are already deadly guns incredibly dangerous to anything below toughness value 8.
Rubrics aint bad, they are even rather good. despite the gun in 10 weirdness (that i hope is a copypasta error and gets FAQed)
But they are one-dimensional. and the codex didn't do enough to elevate that.
Few stratagems matter to them, one that is supposedly unique to them is horrible enough to never be worth it, and even the spells-most spells they have are NOT spells you want your rubrics to cast.
Ahriman21 wrote: Scarab Occult got a straight buff. the same unit is now 20 points cheaper. and has access to stratagem options, again that o'l workhorse VOTLW will do its job, however the Scarab Occult suffer one major issue; They are Terminators in a time when Terminators ACROSS THE BOARD are not particularly impressive, Ours will do fine and I think they will hold their weight well in most lists; Given that PPM they are about the same as any other tooled out terminator squad now? AND come with a free spell caster?...Yeah I am fairly pleased.
Scarab got buffed, yes. but not enough. the base cost per model should have been a few points lower as well.
Yay, they got VotLW. so does regular termies, who has combis.
Getting the same stratagem everyone else in your superfaction has is not even the bare minimum.
Ahriman21 wrote: My primary and biggest annoyances in the book are a few design decisions that while they dont harm the army as a whole are incredibly annoying and foolish, but the book is still an 8 outta 10 ya know? its still a pretty great book overall.
No, they don't HARM the army.
But other than VotLW (who i could get via codex CSM), minor price reduction that isn't enough to make the exalted or SoT actually GOOD, the helmet relic and prince buff, it doesn't do anything to HELP my army either over what we had in CA (and i guess warlord traits? though I could get CSM traits for my prince as well)
The gors and mutalit may be in the codex, but they are not my army. I don't care about them and won't get them no matter how good they are (and they are) because they are not the army I signed up for back in 7th.
The codex does not do the very minimal effort needed to make the "true rubric" army a viable possibilit, let alone competitive one. you dont have any FA except mutants, the stratagems that supposdly support dusties either help even more the gors, or are outright bad (the sexploding asp sorcerer one, and the infero bolt upgrade one-both are really bad and not worth even 1 cp), the tactic actually doesn't do anything to any non-psyker unit, and I don't think anyone else in the game has tactic that narrow (heck, TS helbrutes not being psykers is a bit disappointing but TS helbrutes not getting ANYTHING over "chaos soup" helbrute is just flawed)
Its not a good codex. its a 6/10, MAYBE.
Not because its weak, as its rather strong.
But because it does nothing at all, hardly even making a pretense, at supporting the army that was, over giving all attention to the new goat overlords.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
I'm amused at people complaining about "not my army" stuff. Did you see the DG codex versus what the DG army list in traitor legions was? That's what an actual change looks like, adding a couple new units and being best used as a horde army in an edition where literally every army is best off using their hordes isn't.
Honestly, it's not even an actual change in good options, rubric heavy in 7th was garbage. Gors, cultists, or brimstones with psychic HQs was what I saw every tson player who wanted to win using, maybe with scarab occult but I didn't even see that many of them.
It is a good codex by all appearances. It's both lore friendly and better balanced than most marine codices so far as we have seen. Anyone upset by this codex is just being unreasonable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/27 17:23:54
Ahriman21 wrote: Overall the codex taken as a whole is seeming like a great book, I get the complaints of "you cant spam 60 rubrics with some sorcerers and have it work!" Which is true, I own 40 rubrics, however I regularly use about half, 20-30 give or take in most lists of 1500-2000. and I pull a decent win/loss ratio WITH THE INDEX.
You misunderstand the complaints.
Its not that you can't spam rubrics-its that you HAVE to take gors, because everything in the codex is geared directly to support them.
Not taking gors in just consciously weakening your list.
Ahriman21 wrote: So somehow looking at me and saying "oh yeah rubrics are so terri-bad" in the new book does not make logical sense when they received nothing but buffs, the sorcerer is free, gained a spell from change (admittedly 2 of them are useful on the regular, the rest will require bigger badder sorcerers to cast them) and access to one of the best strategems in the GAME, "Vets of the Long War" alone makes are already deadly guns incredibly dangerous to anything below toughness value 8.
Rubrics aint bad, they are even rather good. despite the gun in 10 weirdness (that i hope is a copypasta error and gets FAQed)
But they are one-dimensional. and the codex didn't do enough to elevate that.
Few stratagems matter to them, one that is supposedly unique to them is horrible enough to never be worth it, and even the spells-most spells they have are NOT spells you want your rubrics to cast.
Ahriman21 wrote: Scarab Occult got a straight buff. the same unit is now 20 points cheaper. and has access to stratagem options, again that o'l workhorse VOTLW will do its job, however the Scarab Occult suffer one major issue; They are Terminators in a time when Terminators ACROSS THE BOARD are not particularly impressive, Ours will do fine and I think they will hold their weight well in most lists; Given that PPM they are about the same as any other tooled out terminator squad now? AND come with a free spell caster?...Yeah I am fairly pleased.
Scarab got buffed, yes. but not enough. the base cost per model should have been a few points lower as well.
Yay, they got VotLW. so does regular termies, who has combis.
Getting the same stratagem everyone else in your superfaction has is not even the bare minimum.
Ahriman21 wrote: My primary and biggest annoyances in the book are a few design decisions that while they dont harm the army as a whole are incredibly annoying and foolish, but the book is still an 8 outta 10 ya know? its still a pretty great book overall.
No, they don't HARM the army.
But other than VotLW (who i could get via codex CSM), minor price reduction that isn't enough to make the exalted or SoT actually GOOD, the helmet relic and prince buff, it doesn't do anything to HELP my army either over what we had in CA (and i guess warlord traits? though I could get CSM traits for my prince as well)
The gors and mutalit may be in the codex, but they are not my army. I don't care about them and won't get them no matter how good they are (and they are) because they are not the army I signed up for back in 7th.
The codex does not do the very minimal effort needed to make the "true rubric" army a viable possibilit, let alone competitive one. you dont have any FA except mutants, the stratagems that supposdly support dusties either help even more the gors, or are outright bad (the sexploding asp sorcerer one, and the infero bolt upgrade one-both are really bad and not worth even 1 cp), the tactic actually doesn't do anything to any non-psyker unit, and I don't think anyone else in the game has tactic that narrow (heck, TS helbrutes not being psykers is a bit disappointing but TS helbrutes not getting ANYTHING over "chaos soup" helbrute is just flawed)
Its not a good codex. its a 6/10, MAYBE.
Not because its weak, as its rather strong.
But because it does nothing at all, hardly even making a pretense, at supporting the army that was, over giving all attention to the new goat overlords.
Good post even if I disagree on several points.
One thing i'll point out is that you HAD to take Tzaangors or Cultists before this book, too. You don't run non-melee elites that fold in combat without something to guard them. The only difference now is that the Tzaangors aren't also one dimensional.
nintura wrote: Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.
Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.
Played against deathguard the other day without a single plague marine in the list, it wasn’t because pm’s are “bad” they just aren’t an optimal choice in a dg list.
Unfortunately the same can be said of rubrics as tzangor units supported by sorcerers and daemons will be the optimal list.
I understand both sides of the argument but as a tzeentch player who has loved the thousand sons for 20 something years it is sad that my rubrics won’t see the play that I and many others hoped for!
Will I still buy the book and a load of tzangor models? Yes but a small part of me will still regret that it’s not a full tsons Army
Guyver 3 wrote: Played against deathguard the other day without a single plague marine in the list, it wasn’t because pm’s are “bad” they just aren’t an optimal choice in a dg list.
Unfortunately the same can be said of rubrics as tzangor units supported by sorcerers and daemons will be the optimal list.
I understand both sides of the argument but as a tzeentch player who has loved the thousand sons for 20 something years it is sad that my rubrics won’t see the play that I and many others hoped for!
Will I still buy the book and a load of tzangor models? Yes but a small part of me will still regret that it’s not a full tsons Army
Saying what is and isn't an optimal list before the codex is even out is a bit much.
Deep striking Tzaangor with horns, plus the various other potential boosts is nice. But at the end of the day your opponent will expect that and adjust accordingly(or are not a smart player). On the internet - understandably given the theoretical nature - people tend to focus on the combos. These can be really good but they do't factor in the movement and positioning side of the game.
Incidentally the Tzaangor improvements make Rubricae better. Shoving a big mob in their face turn one will keep the enemy guns occupied. The Tzaangor were probably necessary for boots of the ground under the index too if you wanted to be more efficient, but now they can do the old job of bubblewrapping and board control as well as actually threaten the enemy, alleviating hte pressure on your other more elite units.
As I say, in practice it could transpire that the Rubricae are rubbish. But they have objectively improved upon the index.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 