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I remember the poll indicating that 90% of participants had interest in painting their models. Don't recall that poll including anything else in your post.
Also, related to the poll (but can't really compress down to a multiple choice poll) is how quickly do you feel the need to see stuff painted? I mean, I would HOPE that if a newbie comes to the store for their first game of 40k, you'd not expect them to buy and paint models before they play, but how fast do you expect them to work? Or do you just want to see progress?
For me personally, I don't really care about painting at all. While I do like the look of 40k, I'm more invested in having a fun game (even with the rules as bunk as they are) than seeing cool pictures. I do love to see well-painted models, but I barely care if your models are unpainted or badly painted, so long as you're a good sport and we have fun.
And it clearly talks about what sort of progress you want to see from others.
Mmmpi wrote: As for the part about GW...this has already been discussed. You're still wrong.
GW doesn't care about what you do with your own stuff, but at least in the GW stores I've been to- any time there's an event they want your models painted to tabletop standards.
I don't agree with it. It looks nice, but then you've got them policing armies for third party bits. A friend of mine got asked to take his models off the table because he had heraldry icons from shapeways.
I haven't been in a GW store that had a painting standard other than "It's a GW model" in years.
Was in one that had a "models must show improvement in paint jobs" but that got rescinded when people stopped showing up.
I remember the poll indicating that 90% of participants had interest in painting their models. Don't recall that poll including anything else in your post.
Also, related to the poll (but can't really compress down to a multiple choice poll) is how quickly do you feel the need to see stuff painted? I mean, I would HOPE that if a newbie comes to the store for their first game of 40k, you'd not expect them to buy and paint models before they play, but how fast do you expect them to work? Or do you just want to see progress?
For me personally, I don't really care about painting at all. While I do like the look of 40k, I'm more invested in having a fun game (even with the rules as bunk as they are) than seeing cool pictures. I do love to see well-painted models, but I barely care if your models are unpainted or badly painted, so long as you're a good sport and we have fun.
And it clearly talks about what sort of progress you want to see from others.
Except that's not the poll, just a side question he wants answered.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 02:57:16
Likewise, painted models will help you make a good impression.
To you.
Let's not forget the poll indicates that paint matters at least a little to over 90% of participants, or that it draws more attention to the game board in a store, that GW advertises with painted models because of that impression, and major tournaments require it.
So maybe not just me.
I remember the poll indicating that 90% of participants had interest in painting their models. Don't recall that poll including anything else in your post.
Major tournaments do what they want. They're private organizations. Notice how many of them have their own rules too?
No one is called lazy though for not going to a major tournament.
As for the part about GW...this has already been discussed. You're still wrong.
Mmmpi wrote: Was in one that had a "models must show improvement in paint jobs" but that got rescinded when people stopped showing up.
Never seen one quite that crazy as a store policy, but I have seen it as a league policy.
I have seen stores that ask that you play painted armies on certain tables (usually the ones near the entrance to catch the eye of customers).
In both situations, though- the league and the store both have painting workshops for people. Where I work, we have an entire room near the wargame tables where people can paint and assemble models. We even have a bunch of primers and paint samples (just a few basic colors) and some cheaper brushes for people to borrow. Our shop owner even sells some really cheap hobby brushes, and he'll throw some in for free if you buy models and paint together. We don't even have a set limit for how much you gotta buy, usually it's just 'if he looks like he might need it'.
Likewise, painted models will help you make a good impression.
To you.
Let's not forget the poll indicates that paint matters at least a little to over 90% of participants, or that it draws more attention to the game board in a store, that GW advertises with painted models because of that impression, and major tournaments require it.
So maybe not just me.
I remember the poll indicating that 90% of participants had interest in painting their models. Don't recall that poll including anything else in your post.
Major tournaments do what they want. They're private organizations. Notice how many of them have their own rules too?
No one is called lazy though for not going to a major tournament.
As for the part about GW...this has already been discussed. You're still wrong.
Title of poll and OP.
Nor did I call you lazy mr. Victim.
You didn't call me lazy. You called everyone who doesn't meet your personal standards lazy.
Insectum7 wrote: We have no painting requirement, but we have many impressive armies done by regulars. I've found that this actually encourages people to paint more.
It usually helps when the regulars are there to show people some tricks and such. Most people just need the encouragement and the 'hacks'.
Mmmpi wrote: Was in one that had a "models must show improvement in paint jobs" but that got rescinded when people stopped showing up.
Never seen one quite that crazy as a store policy, but I have seen it as a league policy.
I have seen stores that ask that you play painted armies on certain tables (usually the ones near the entrance to catch the eye of customers).
In both situations, though- the league and the store both have painting workshops for people. Where I work, we have an entire room near the wargame tables where people can paint and assemble models. We even have a bunch of primers and paint samples (just a few basic colors) and some cheaper brushes for people to borrow. Our shop owner even sells some really cheap hobby brushes, and he'll throw some in for free if you buy models and paint together. We don't even have a set limit for how much you gotta buy, usually it's just 'if he looks like he might need it'.
Yeah, players had to show the staff a new painted model, or an improvement to a whole unit (built to primed, then primed to base coated, ect). Then most of their customers just went to the two or three LGSs that didn't care about it.
It was completely unrelated to events, which they allowed with any state of paint.
I do work to encourage people to paint their stuff, but at the same time, if they don't want to, there's really no reason to push them into it.
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, players had to show the staff a new painted model, or an improvement to a whole unit (built to primed, then primed to base coated, ect). Then most of their customers just went to the two or three LGSs that didn't care about it.
It was completely unrelated to events, which they allowed with any state of paint.
Lemme guess, the FLGS owner:
-Didn't have good rapport with the other stores in town, and wasn't a friendly competitor
-Tried to schedule the same events as the other stores
-Worked constantly on publicity, even trying to start big Social Media pages and Youtube Channels
-Attempted to poach customers
-Badmouthed communities at other stores
-Refused to stock certain models/armies
-Had more flashyness than fun
...am I getting this right? On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being 'not even close', and 10 being 'nailed it'... how far past 10 am I?
Insectum7 wrote: We have no painting requirement, but we have many impressive armies done by regulars. I've found that this actually encourages people to paint more.
It usually helps when the regulars are there to show people some tricks and such. Most people just need the encouragement and the 'hacks'.
And we totally do give tips. Several will do comission work as well. Favorite example is a mid-late teen asking about the game one week, showing up with a fully painted UM army two months later, and a year later does commission pieces for others like a boss.
Insectum7 wrote: And we totally do give tips. Several will do comission work as well. Favorite example is a mid-late teen asking about the game one week, showing up with a fully painted UM army two months later, and a year later does commission pieces for others like a boss.
That's the key, man. Some folks just need the guidance.
I was terrible when I started years ago. And someone helped me, showed me a few tricks. It made me feel more satisfied with my work. I still judge myself harshly (to the point where I'm unwilling to share my work with people I don't know very often). However, had it not been for people saying "Lemme show you a trick", I'd probably have given up entirely.
Now I catch myself saying, "Lemme show you a trick". It's pretty normal. What makes me happy is when I hear that person a few months later say, "Lemme show you a trick"... and I can look at one of my old buddies that said that to me, and we both smile at each other and nod.
Yeah I would say the jump from "a one armed hamster could have done a better job of painting this" to " passible table top quality" is very small leap in terms of skills but huge in terms of results if that makes sense. A few tricks and hacks as well as theory explained and just a bit of practice and patience is all it takes.
The jump from "passable table top" to "whats on the box" however is the hard part. I will let you know how hard if I ever get there XD
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 03:41:21
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, players had to show the staff a new painted model, or an improvement to a whole unit (built to primed, then primed to base coated, ect). Then most of their customers just went to the two or three LGSs that didn't care about it.
It was completely unrelated to events, which they allowed with any state of paint.
Lemme guess, the FLGS owner:
-Didn't have good rapport with the other stores in town, and wasn't a friendly competitor
-Tried to schedule the same events as the other stores
-Worked constantly on publicity, even trying to start big Social Media pages and Youtube Channels
-Attempted to poach customers
-Badmouthed communities at other stores
-Refused to stock certain models/armies
-Had more flashyness than fun
...am I getting this right? On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being 'not even close', and 10 being 'nailed it'... how far past 10 am I?
No, it was a full on GW store. Red shirts and everything. Generally they were decent guys, but the painting requirements turned a lot of people off. Most of their customers were high schoolers and college kids with very full schedules.
They were very good at passing people off to other stores for non-GW stuff, and coordinated in stock lists with them so if someone was out of something, they could point you to someone who wasn't out of it.
Argive wrote: The jump from "passable table top" to "whats on the box" however is the hard part.
I tell people like this:
"Those models on the box? There's a whole studio that does that. Guys that have been painting since they were old enough to grab the model and a brush. It's their job, their career, and they have nothing better to do all day than practice painting models. For every single model on that box, there's probably ten in some bucket beside a desk that the guy screwed up on- so he just grabbed another one and started all over. Basically, these guys are the NFL and me and you are doing some Saturday morning flag football."
No, it was a full on GW store. Red shirts and everything. Generally they were decent guys, but the painting requirements turned a lot of people off. Most of their customers were high schoolers and college kids with very full schedules.
They were very good at passing people off to other stores for non-GW stuff, and coordinated in stock lists with them so if someone was out of something, they could point you to someone who wasn't out of it.
Yeeesh. I'd be shocked if it were still around under the same management. I've actually sent an email to GW about a store and they do take things pretty seriously if it's pushing away customers.
Stores like the one I was thinking about, and maybe even that GW are using a bad tactic. It's basically the idea that they can cultivate this 'elite' gaming place with high standards, and people will want to be a part of the 'better' group because they have these high standards and thus it's a 'better' place.
...but it has the opposite effect. It overwhelms new players instead of making them want to buy more. They also tend to regret their purchase, and if they don't refund- they just stop buying stuff. The stuff they do end up buying is often stuff they've been made to believe the 'need', rather than stuff they think is cool or fun.
What it leaves behind is actual elitists. Powergamers, WAAC players, and just obnoxious types. And despite what some amatuer store owners may think, the 'competitive, high standard' group doesn't spend a whole lot of money- at least not the way you'd think. Most of them are smart enough to find used models, repurpose what they have, or they have mostly everything they need if they are dedicated to a particular army.
And the 'elite' gamers? They get tired of playing one another. They can usually start to hate each other quite a bit. Then they tend to drift away, leaving the shop with a bad reputation and empty tables... and they try and bring their worst traits to other places and prey on unsuspecting newbies.
...which is actually why I made a book where people can leave their contact info to set up games, and what sort of 'level' they play at. After players meet up, they can fill out surveys on one another in confidence and I can make notes so we'll know when 'Casual Carl' isn't very casual.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 03:50:52
That's like if I went to the gym for the first time and leaving upset at the end of the day because I don't look like Henry Carvill(superman/the witcher)...
I really get why people look at what they do and look at the box and get discouraged I think its a normal response. I remember feeling like a failure and still do to a degree. But then logic dictates that learning new skills wont happen in a day.. you have to persevere. Also muscle memory in painting is a thing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 03:52:36
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: That's like if I went to the gym for the first time and leaving upset at the end of the day because I don't look like Henry Carvill(superman/the witcher)...
and there are people who do that, they can't go in and be perfect right away so they get dischouraged.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Argive wrote: That's like if I went to the gym for the first time and leaving upset at the end of the day because I don't look like Henry Carvill(superman/the witcher)...
and there are people who do that, they can't go in and be perfect right away so they get dischouraged.
Those people are going to have a tough time at lyfe.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Cutting out sweets after new year has hit hard bros..
Only another 20 kg to go..
\
Good lad.
You know what else helps? Grapefruit. Just plain old grapefruit. No sugar.
You can do grapefruit juice, but not 'Ruby Red' or anything with sweetener. Try it, and consider it punishment for all the bad things you also eat and drink. But it works.
Cutting out sweets after new year has hit hard bros..
Only another 20 kg to go..
\
Good lad.
You know what else helps? Grapefruit. Just plain old grapefruit. No sugar.
You can do grapefruit juice, but not 'Ruby Red' or anything with sweetener. Try it, and consider it punishment for all the bad things you also eat and drink. But it works.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
To be fair the poll isn't too clear on whether it's about your own or your enemy's army. The first post clarifies it, but in my experience, people don't read anything but what's above the poll.
To me painting my own army is pretty important (4/5) while my opponent's army barely matters (2/5).
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Well, painting can’t be the most important thing, surely assembly is more important otherwise you just end up with a bunch of colourful bits on sprues!
I thought I left a perfectly innocent question when I went to sleep. Turns out that, no, as hobbyists, we have absolutely no right to our own time and choices.
Sounds a lot like gatekeeping, really.
Spoiler:
Lance845 wrote:YOU doing that could encourage OTHERS to do that.
So I should lie instead about how I might actually feel? And I'm not forcing anyone to do what I'm doing. If they also feel the same about "hey, I don't want to play against unpainted models, and I have to right to do what I want with my time", then they should feel comfortable to express that opinion in a polite manner. I'm never going to condone something like "I don't want to play against unpainted models because that means you're WAAC trash and you're scum on this hobby", but if someone doesn't want to play with their models in a certain way, you have no right to expect them to.
You are introducing gatekeeping into your community, as I said.
Not accurate in the slightest. They are just maintaining their own standards - one person is not a community. Or are you suggesting that I should be able to walk into any store, into any game, with any army, to any degree of completion/painting/assembly/etc, and demand that they play against me, or else they're gatekeeping me?
Do I have the *right* to your time and free will as a hobbyist? Can I walk up to you in any environment, and demand you play against me with a top-tier meta list proxied by lumps of coal? Because if not, that's gatekeeping, apparently.
If thats your line, keep it to yourself.
Or, instead of lying to them, I can be honest. As long as I, as you say, provide them with alternatives, and maintain that "you're still welcome to enjoy the hobby, but I want to do something else".
encourage the perpetuation of playing and having a good time in your community.
What if "having a good time in my community" meant painting your models? By that regard, in order to be a "good influence" for the community, one should paint their models.
And here we come to the main point of contention - your idea of "good for the community" is different to other people's ideas of "good for the community". But I don't think anyone agrees with you that you should always drop everything you're doing to play against anyone, anytime, anyhow, and you have no freedom to enjoy yourself how you want.
Let's play a game of Kill Team! "Well, actually, I don't really enjoy playin-" GATEKEEPING
Hey, I'm using my homebrew rules! "Um, these rules seem kinda broken, I'm not I'd enjo-" GATEKEEPING
Face my optimised top tier meta breaking army! "I was actually after a pretty casual-" GATEKEEPING
Here's my mixed list army, it's super casual and relaxed! "Oh, I actually wanted to play a tourney style list so I could practice for-" GATEKEEPING
Neither the person wanting the game, or the person refusing one, are in the wrong. They're just not compatible with eachother. If neither one is able/willing to meet the other (and they shouldn't be forced to - in the same way someone shouldn't be forced to paint their models, or forced to play a game they won't enjoy), then they simply shouldn't play. Don't forget - the community is more than just playing games. They can still talk to eachother, they can still discuss things, they can still hang out together. But demanding their own time? No way.
And before anyone decides to call THAT gatekeeping, your talking about the paradox of intolerance. It is not intolerant to be intolerant of intolerance. Every community has a right if not a responsibility to protect itself from those kinds of practices.
Ah, this old chestnut. It's already been torn to shreds, but I'll throw my hat in:
As someone who's very fond of using the paradox of intolerance to promote the protection of people who are genuinely at risk in the world (myself included), your use of it here is, at best, simple ignorance, or at worst, genuinely patronising or insulting.
But, to indulge your misuse of the paradox, let's examine this:
A person who's genuinely intolerant of painting models (ie, not someone who genuinely *cannot*, but someone who simply chooses not to). Why should I tolerate their intolerance of painting, and play against them? If they don't put the time/effort in, why should I put time/effort in for them?
A person who is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc etc. Are they entitled to my time in the hobby - if I turn them away, am I not gatekeeping?
Lance845 wrote:The paradox of tolerance is my stance here. Games are all inclusive.
The game is. My time is not.
If I turned someone away from the HOBBY for not painting, then I would be gatekeeping, that's true. If I turned someone away from playing with ME, and me alone, that's not gatekeeping. That's me managing my time how I want.
And I will protect their inclusiveness in my community from toxic elements that want to put up artificial elitist barriers to keep those out that don't meet their "standards".
But you're also creating standards - your standard is that "everyone is required to play against someone else on demand, and you have no excuse not to play against absolutely anyone". That's just as toxic as "sorry, I'm not happy playing against unpainted models, even though I'm sure I can engage with you in other ways, without gaming".
You're creating unreasonable standards by which nobody has freedom of their own time and effort, because at the drop of a hat, you must be ready to play against anyone else, lest you be accused to gatekeeping.
I called it gatekeeping because it is. I called it rude because it is. I called it toxic because it is.
In the same vein, I can call your expectation to other people's time gatekeeping, rude and toxic "because they are".
The whole "because it is" only works if you have some authority to prove it. You have none.
You 100% have a right to feel how you do. Go home, invite others like you to your house, and keep it over there.
So, you're saying that the moment I'm in a public space, my time and preferences don't matter, and that I can, at any time, be forced into doing something I don't want to, until I'm in my own four walls?
And what if it's my venue?
The community doesn't need you.
And you speak for "the community", do you?
I didn't vote for you.
You're more than welcome to have that opinion that "refusing to play unpainted armies is toxic!", but that's just your opinion, and your standard. You have every right to refuse to play against someone with that belief. You have no right, however, to pretend that your opinion is anything more than just that.
If I genuinely did hold that belief of "I won't play against unpainted armies", then I still wouldn't pretend it was some kind of baseline requirement, or meant anything else beyond my own preferences. I would obviously make it clear that it was just my preference, in the same way I prefer not to play against tourney lists, and that there's plenty of fish in the sea for someone who actually wants a game.
People are obviously entitled to be in the hobby and to enjoy it however they want to. They are not entitled to me.
nareik wrote: Well, painting can’t be the most important thing, surely assembly is more important otherwise you just end up with a bunch of colourful bits on sprues!
I regret priming sprues... (spoiler.. there are effin mold lines innit )
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Lance845 wrote: The only standard that matters in the game is good sportsmanship.
So having a standard is fine if it is in an area you agree with - and obviously not gate-keeping in that case - but is a problem if it is in an area you disagree with?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
nareik wrote: Well, painting can’t be the most important thing, surely assembly is more important otherwise you just end up with a bunch of colourful bits on sprues!
I regret priming sprues... (spoiler.. there are effin mold lines innit )
I don't. my eyes are so bad, I don't see mold lines anyways
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
If people have absolutely no interest in having painted models they are in the wrong hobby, let's be honest. Not your top priority? That's perfectly understandable.
Priorities are different for everyone, no question about that, but if you literally don't intend or even desire to have a painted army I question why you would chose this very particular, visuals focused game?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/15 10:17:07
Eldar- 4436 pts
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