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SemperMortis wrote:

I mean...I never use them in tournaments and competitive games but when I am playing for fun...yeah. I load up 3 wagonz with boyz in them and a few characters and tellyporta strike them. 1 is almost guaranteed to get in and the other 2 have a good chance to get in. Turn 3 they disgorge their troops who then bum rush in and start hacking and slashing anything that is nearby.

I have a couple games coming up against Eldar and an RG player. I swear, I have to pull tricks out of my ass to play against the Eldar player.

A Deathskull bonebreaker out of tellyporta seems like a solid punch somewhere on the line. 6 + d6 attacks, hitting on 2s. I think it could dent the inevitable Ghost army I'm going to face... just not sure it's worth putting anything inside against Eldar since I doubt it'll survive the subsequent round of shooting between guns and smites.

i mean if youre going to just have it be empty just slap a squad of grots in there.
That way when they come out he either wastes his time dealing with them, or they potentially tie something up for a bit or at the very least get in the literal way/contest objectives.

tulun wrote:
To those that use bonebreakers, do you often fill them up?

I kind of like the idea of just having one deep strike -> charge in and disrupt the lines. Seems like filling up the vehicle just eats into your points...

I guess you could just half fill it with like 6 Nobs or something, that would be enough to disrupt the enemy.

Usually just 10 gretchin that I upgrade to boyz if I have points to spare. Those get out as soon as they drive past an objective or eat overwatch from a unit that could be dangerous to a bonebreaka.
Outside that, I sometimes chuck Grotznik or Thrakka in them, but neither has a great success story to tell from that.

In my experience, bonebreakas never survive their first charge. Almost all armies have something that can counter-charge and destroy them after some softening up from assorted low-range shooting and grenades.
Putting a valuable unit in there is just adding free kills to the distraction carnifex.


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tneva82 wrote:
Certainly explaining part of my poor experience with them(that and not trying with CA prices). Here we have generally lots of terrain to ensure you can't alpha strike too easily. Makes those bases tricky to fit.

OTOH one can usually hide half a dozen of those from being alpha striked.

In my experience, excessive amounts of LOS blocking terrain make speed freeks unplayable. It doesn't really matter how much you can hide when eldar flyers and TF cannons exist.

Add wazboms to you're speed freaks army and grill that thunder fire cannons.
But jep Manny buggies are not a good idea with terrain. B3 are okay more are to many big bases

You can't shoot them if they go first. If you go first, you are pretty likely to be in sight anyways, since you can't shoot otherwise.

How Marines kills wazboms on long range?
And you have movement 60 + 24 weapon range so you can stark in the last corner and can hit everywhere on the battlefield with 84 inch effektiv range

The thing is the TF cannon hits you with the stratagem and your unit loses half its movement speed. If that is used a buggy in the front of choke point or warbikers can destroy your game plan right there.

Also, repulsor executioners can snipe fliers out of the sky quite easily considering all the rerolls SM have access to and the min damage on the gun, removing a lot of variance on damage rolls

PiñaColada wrote:
Also, repulsor executioners can snipe fliers out of the sky quite easily considering all the rerolls SM have access to and the min damage on the gun, removing a lot of variance on damage rolls

A repulsor has just 36 range no problem there
And a repulsor exe do about 10 dmg against a wazbom with rerolls
And rly no meta marine list use some at the moment

A repuslor execeutioner has this gun:
Heavy 2 72" range S10 AP-4 Dd6 (damage rolls of 1 or 2 count as 3)

If it moves half distance or less it can shoot its main gun twice

So yeah, they'll plonk down fliers easily

Edit: Also even if they don't manage to shoot one down the odds of them either killing it outright or putting the wazbom in its last bracket is super high. Now a wazbom with even a singular wound left is great since it still has decent firepower and most likely a kff bubble, but then it's not going to be fast enough to hit any thunderfire cannons unless you're super lucky with how the opponent placed them

Yaea totaly with that gun average 8 dmg average if shooting twice hitting on 3+ rerolling
And 50% you have first turn or?

And again nearly no marine meta of ih list using repulsor exe

Well, my opponents are. What exactly is your point? That excessive amounts of terrain is great because Wazbomm can maybe kill models that ignore excessive amounts of terrain because they ignore said terrain as well?

I guess that's fair. I mean I'd argue 8 damage is really close to the 9 needed to put it in its bottom bracket but a 5++ is one of those things that can be really handy (especially with a willingness to burn a CP on a reroll if needed)

I've only really faced a executioners buffed by a chaplain and recitation of focus (+1 to hit) so maybe that scewed my perception of them a bit. Well I also faced a double IF executioner list but I'd rather forget that whole ordeal since just those 660ish points could probably have tabled all by themselves (though I play speed freeks, so nightmare matchup).

My point was simply that executioners have the range to reach out that far and even though they've fallen out of the top meta a little bit I'd personally wait and see how they do at the LVO before speaking to their popularity since even a decent showing there will make every netlister buy a few..

Personally I'm not sold on hunting down thunderfire cannons with wazboms, I mean if it works it's great but honestly those guns should be well hidden enough that you have to go full out (though obviously not advancing) to just get there and T2 probably won't be to hard for your opponent to just movement block you into being unable to move. That obviously depends on terrain density and skill level of your opponent but it's a risky maneuver IMO

On the topic of TF cannon hunting, trying to get your SJD to jump is also a good idea - a deff skulls SJD usually blows up a TF cannon without issues.

 Jidmah wrote:
On the topic of TF cannon hunting, trying to get your SJD to jump is also a good idea - a deff skulls SJD usually blows up a TF cannon without issues.

True. Hide them turn one. Than teleport. Not the worst idea

 Jidmah wrote:
On the topic of TF cannon hunting, trying to get your SJD to jump is also a good idea - a deff skulls SJD usually blows up a TF cannon without issues.

You need to be able to roll a 4+ on your advance for you shock jump drag, AND position smewhere 9 inches away form enemy units and still have LOS on the TFC. Doable, but so many variables... And the kill is far from being easy because of advance penalty to hit, with 2 kustom rifle shots.

Switching topics, I have slaughtered an IH list with a pure DS list comprising of the usual stuff you would expect in a DS brigade (SSAG and SAGs, weirdboys, large mobs of boyz with PK, grots, but also... Deff dreds !

For me, DS Deff dreds with triple KMB and one saw, 82 points, are just completely great ! The helped me get rid of both planes turn 1, and turn 2 helped with eliminating the repulsor exec threats. Though I think my opponent will consider them as a much greater threat next game hah hah.
I have tried playing lots of scrapjets and a KBB "rivet thrower" (so orky !) and I prefer by far the dredds. the higher AP, the d6 damage, etc. all combos so weel with the DS trait ! The glory of the 6 invul against a repulsor exec canon ! (only managed two but these 6 saves really gave an extra turn to two of my dredds).

I will be keeping to my 2*3 deff dredds for the next games.

Love da dreads with 2 kmb 2 klaws had a great success with them so far

 Jidmah wrote:


Usually just 10 gretchin that I upgrade to boyz if I have points to spare. Those get out as soon as they drive past an objective or eat overwatch from a unit that could be dangerous to a bonebreaka.
Outside that, I sometimes chuck Grotznik or Thrakka in them, but neither has a great success story to tell from that.

In my experience, bonebreakas never survive their first charge. Almost all armies have something that can counter-charge and destroy them after some softening up from assorted low-range shooting and grenades.
Putting a valuable unit in there is just adding free kills to the distraction carnifex.

Yeah, that was my thinking as well. I just don't see how the thing survives a full turn unless your opponent just rolls terribly or somehow thinks that ignoring a Bonebreaker in CC is a good idea.

I am wondering if 1-2 Deff Dreads don't just do this job better. Roughly the same cost for two, can take two very powerful guns if they happen to be around next turn, and are probably more resilient per point (3+ save, 8 wounds, T7 vs 4+ save, T8, 16 wounds, but the breaker degrades). The only problem is Ramming speed can't affect both, so I can't guarantee both make the charge. 2 Deff Dreads w/ Klaw, saw is pretty scary -- one isn't so scary. Countercharge can also screw you over with 2 separate units.

Maybe optimally, just take 1 dread w/ 4 CC weapons and assume it'll just die the next turn anyway?


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T1nk4bell wrote:
Love da dreads with 2 kmb 2 klaws had a great success with them so far

I think klaw, saw is even better just to save 5 points, but yeah, I think this load on a dread is sexy. If you don't care about 3 wound models so much too, you can even go saw, saw, kmb, kmb for 83 points. That's bloody good value.

A note on the TFC Suppressing Fire:

It only works on models that lack FLY or TITANIC Keywords. So a Flier is completely immune to having its speed halved, unless they can somehow remove the FLY Keyword from it first.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A note on the TFC Suppressing Fire:

It only works on models that lack FLY or TITANIC Keywords. So a Flier is completely immune to having its speed halved, unless they can somehow remove the FLY Keyword from it first.

Heh.

Stormboyz really are just more optimal boyz now, aren't they? They can ignore the bs stratagem.

tulun wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
A note on the TFC Suppressing Fire:

It only works on models that lack FLY or TITANIC Keywords. So a Flier is completely immune to having its speed halved, unless they can somehow remove the FLY Keyword from it first.

Heh.

Stormboyz really are just more optimal boyz now, aren't they? They can ignore the bs stratagem.

They can still get boppped pretty hard by 4d3 (or 8d3, with shoot twice) BS 2+, probably rerolling, S5 AP-1/2 shots.

 JNAProductions wrote:
They can still get boppped pretty hard by 4d3 (or 8d3, with shoot twice) BS 2+, probably rerolling, S5 AP-1/2 shots.

Absolutely true. At least the survivors can act normally if they survive that, though.

Honestly, the stratagem is the worst part. TFCs are nasty enmass, but even 4d3 shots is only 8 hits, 5.36 wounds, and you can have the boyz under a KFF and/or painboy aura to make it not so bad.. They can survive that. It's just that if they can't act normally after that, they are deadweight.

Of course, then you have the rest of the bolter fire to slaughter them

Yeah. TFCs are positively brutal, but they alone are not why SM are so good. They've got all the other goodies no one else gets too.

TFCs just counter boyz way too well for what they cost.
Something strong enough to threaten technically anything shouldnt be that cheap.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
TFCs just counter boyz way too well for what they cost.
Something strong enough to threaten technically anything shouldnt be that cheap.

Strong and consistent AND resilient.

Potentially sporting a 1+ save, can hide out of LoS, comes with a useful character, can threaten heavy infantry, enough shots to threaten light infantry, re-roll 1s to hit, and has one of the best stratagems in the game (removing movement can basically invalidate huge swaths of units, even if the TFC is a bit weaker against them).

I'm confident it could go up 40-50 points and they'd still be taken.

An actual 1+, or an effective 1+? Cuz there's a pretty big difference between the two.

Including stealthy, if that's unclear.

Just means even if you get line of sight, you might just tickle the damn thing unless you're within a foot.

It's an Effective 1+.

2+ save on both the cannon and gunner, and Stealthy makes them always in cover outside of 12". Plus they can easily be in actual cover.

The crazy thing is that the techmarine isn't like a mek krew member that basically doesn't exist. He's an actual techmarine, capable of repairing etc. Which means that GW thinks a thunderfire cannon is worth like 40 points, or in ork terms, 2 lobbas...

Yeah thats even more bonkers.
iirc the tech marine doesnt even have to be near it anymore does he?