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curran12 wrote: They are in other countries, countries where it is very difficult to just walk up and say "hey they are stealing our copyright".
This is exactly true. Most of the recasts that are made are from Russia or China, and China especially doesn't give a about copyright in other countries. These sites do eventually get shut down, however.
EDIT: And I'm not sure how allowed talk about recasters in on Dakka. I'm sure the talk about it is fine, but any links to recasters is prohibited.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 02:47:49
You sound as if you're surprised that someone has done something of questionable legality in order to make money. Plus, it's not really illegal in Russia or China. No one cares what some other country's laws are.
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I'm fairly sure that the legality focuses more on the sale, and production, of fake goods, rather than the purchase, so you then have a situation where neither the purchaser nor the seller are breaking any domestic law.
The recasts are not counterfeit (counterfeiting requires an intent to deceive - to pass the fake off as genuine, any recasters I've seen make no secret of the fact that their product isn't the real deal, and charge a price commensurate with that) nor are they theft (theft requires removal of property) so there is no criminal element to what recasters are doing (within this context) which makes law enforcement disinterested, and therefore it boils down to individual parties and how motivated they are to defend themselves.
I don't think it's coincidence that GW essentially got beaten up in the courts in the Chapterhouse case, then went after the soft target of some of the higher profile, easier to find, recasters, but while the Chinese government seems to be actively protecting this sort of industry, it is only a short time before it all pops back up again.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I suspect many of the governments of these websites' countries probably don't even have the capability to effectively protect foreign copywrites, let alone their own.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 03:01:45
Azreal13 wrote: IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I'm fairly sure that the legality focuses more on the sale, and production, of fake goods, rather than the purchase, so you then have a situation where neither the purchaser nor the seller are breaking any domestic law.
The recasts are not counterfeit (counterfeiting requires an intent to deceive - to pass the fake off as genuine, any recasters I've seen make no secret of the fact that their product isn't the real deal, and charge a price commensurate with that) nor are they theft (theft requires removal of property) so there is no criminal element to what recasters are doing (within this context) which makes law enforcement disinterested, and therefore it boils down to individual parties and how motivated they are to defend themselves.
I don't think it's coincidence that GW essentially got beaten up in the courts in the Chapterhouse case, then went after the soft target of some of the higher profile, easier to find, recasters, but while the Chinese government seems to be actively protecting this sort of industry, it is only a short time before it all pops back up again.
This is more the heart of what I was getting at. I know GW went after Chapterhouse, but do they ever go after the customers or mainly just the recasters? I don't think it took terribly long for them to pop back up either.
Verviedi wrote: I'm pretty sure this thread is heresy. The mods don't like recasting.
They don't like recasters named and information which could lead a curious person to a recasting site to be shared, talking about the issue in general terms has been ok in the past (until people get upset and start flaming at least.)
IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I'm fairly sure that the legality focuses more on the sale, and production, of fake goods, rather than the purchase, so you then have a situation where neither the purchaser nor the seller are breaking any domestic law.
The recasts are not counterfeit (counterfeiting requires an intent to deceive - to pass the fake off as genuine, any recasters I've seen make no secret of the fact that their product isn't the real deal, and charge a price commensurate with that) nor are they theft (theft requires removal of property) so there is no criminal element to what recasters are doing (within this context) which makes law enforcement disinterested, and therefore it boils down to individual parties and how motivated they are to defend themselves.
I don't think it's coincidence that GW essentially got beaten up in the courts in the Chapterhouse case, then went after the soft target of some of the higher profile, easier to find, recasters, but while the Chinese government seems to be actively protecting this sort of industry, it is only a short time before it all pops back up again.
This is more the heart of what I was getting at. I know GW went after Chapterhouse, but do they ever go after the customers or mainly just the recasters? I don't think it took terribly long for them to pop back up either.
AFAIK you break no laws by purchasing recasts, but even then, it wouldn't be worth their while to pursue them, the cost for prosecuting one consumer would be many times greater than the money they may claim to have lost in sales (which is a slippery thing to prove anyway, as someone may purchase a fake who has no, and would never have had any, intention to buy the real thing.
So, go right ahead and place your order, you're safe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 03:17:06
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
That's cool, as they all use paypal or some other escrow scheme.
I use a site commonly used by recasters all the time (to make legitimate purchases) and I genuinely feel the checks and balances they have in place are better than EBay (the seller doesn't get a penny of your money until you sign off on an order that you have both received it and are happy with the quality - nothing motivates a seller more than not having your cash til you're happy) and Paypal's buyer protection is obviously well understood.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
DarkLink wrote: Plus, it's not really illegal in Russia or China. No one cares what some other country's laws are.
Not exactly. It's technically illegal in those countries, but enforcement is patchy to nonexistent.
It might be legal in China though. IIRC (I read a few years back about some guys who managed to register copyright for IPhone 5 in China before Apple) the Chinese law requires you to specifically register your copyright claim with them. Even if you do own the copyright to something worldwide, as long as you haven't registered it in China specifically, it's possible for somebody else to do it and manufacture said stuff legally there.
LordBlades wrote: [... the Chinese law requires you to specifically register your copyright claim with them.
Not since 1992.
While China isn't a Berne signatory, their equivalent law bestows the same rights to international copyright holders. Registration isn't required, just encouraged for ease of identification.
IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I'm fairly sure that the legality focuses more on the sale, and production, of fake goods, rather than the purchase, so you then have a situation where neither the purchaser nor the seller are breaking any domestic law.
The recasts are not counterfeit (counterfeiting requires an intent to deceive - to pass the fake off as genuine, any recasters I've seen make no secret of the fact that their product isn't the real deal, and charge a price commensurate with that) nor are they theft (theft requires removal of property) so there is no criminal element to what recasters are doing (within this context) which makes law enforcement disinterested, and therefore it boils down to individual parties and how motivated they are to defend themselves.
I don't think it's coincidence that GW essentially got beaten up in the courts in the Chapterhouse case, then went after the soft target of some of the higher profile, easier to find, recasters, but while the Chinese government seems to be actively protecting this sort of industry, it is only a short time before it all pops back up again.
This is more the heart of what I was getting at. I know GW went after Chapterhouse, but do they ever go after the customers or mainly just the recasters? I don't think it took terribly long for them to pop back up either.
AFAIK you break no laws by purchasing recasts, but even then, it wouldn't be worth their while to pursue them, the cost for prosecuting one consumer would be many times greater than the money they may claim to have lost in sales (which is a slippery thing to prove anyway, as someone may purchase a fake who has no, and would never have had any, intention to buy the real thing.
So, go right ahead and place your order, you're safe.
Sir, I have no idea what you are talking about. I say good day to thee!
DarkLink wrote: Plus, it's not really illegal in Russia or China.
It's technically illegal in those countries, but enforcement is patchy to nonexistent.
They have more important things to worry about than some insignificant foreign company losing a few dollars. Counterfeit cigarrettes for example, a huge criminal industry. A big and influential brand loses both money and reputation, the state loses out on taxes. The FW recaster is small change compared to that, and he might even pay sales taxes if he sells through a well-run shopping hub.
LordBlades wrote: [... the Chinese law requires you to specifically register your copyright claim with them.
Not since 1992.
While China isn't a Berne signatory, their equivalent law bestows the same rights to international copyright holders. Registration isn't required, just encouraged for ease of identification.
Yeah, I was misinformed, either by misremembering what I read or by reading false stuff.
In the UK, I'm sure the Trading Standards teams would go after recasters as a counterfeiting operation.
They would class them as Adidas boots, or Gucci handbags, etc.
Recasters aren't stood at car-boot sales though, so TS won't usually get involved. Customs might, if they know what to look for.
Since joining this hobby in 2011, I've seen the same Chinese recasters change sites after being taken down and resume business, with the only problem being delays in shipping due to high demand, and of course the variable quality. The sites going down takes a while for GW to do but does happen occasionally. The people behind it don't seem to be punished as they spring back up, within days from what I've seen.
Criminal liability
Under the Trade Marks Act 1995, it is an offence to:
...
sell, possess, distribute or import a good, knowing that the trade mark has been falsified or removed
The Copyright Act 1968 similarly provides for criminal sanctions. Under this Act it is an offence to:
knowingly import, possess, sell, distribute or commercially deal with an infringing copy
Proving a person knows that the website they bought from was infringing would be pretty hard in the case of 40k models though imo so worst case in Aus would likely be confiscation - though I haven't heard of a single case of it. Shipments of recasts don't look dissimilar to kickstarter shipments.
In the UK its possible imports, if recognized as counterfeit goods to be seized by customs. Same situation as trying to avoid VAT and /or duty charges (Which is also what you do when buying recasts from China... thats why they mark them as gifts or worth less than £20, to bypass paying tax)
But they are on the look out for clothes / bags / electronics. Not resin toys. Should GW contact HMRC in the UK and say they suspect parcels from specific business contain items infringing on their IP, Customs can then detain imports from that business.
There is always a risk, no matter how small you may never get items you've paid for, and/ or be slammed with a penalty for avoiding tax.
I've only seen it once with someone who bought a dodgy £30 football shirt from the USA. VAT was not declared or payed for, goods were checked, he had to pay £60 to HMRC. Just how it goes.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/01/07 13:21:50
quite easily, given you have a duty to know who you're buying from, and the fairly obvious case that buying from a Chinese guy stating theyre a recast doesnt help your credibility in saying you didnt know
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 14:11:47
jreilly89 wrote: I know GW is still trying to shut them down, but how are recast sites legal? Does GW try to prosecute buyers or only the sites that sell them?
Recast sites are perfectly legal, because recasting is not a crime under many legal systems.
Why is that ? Because not everyone agrees that the world is better with a patent system that prevents anyone but the highest bidder to compete.
However, those sites still end up being shut down, because money closes doors just as it opens doors, and the websites are easy targets.
As a Western World Citizen, you could only buy them legally if you didn't know that they were recasts.
Which is possible as long as your road to the paypal button does not include any explicit or strongly implicit mention of copyright infringement.
Interestingly enough, for historical figures, it was pretty much the norm to recast your own lead soldiers afaik.
That was about twenty+ years ago, before all the IP bs though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/07 14:23:43
I would like to know if Forgeworld (GW) is aware of how much MORE money they'd make if they reduced their prices by 25-30%. Perhaps they don't want to make more money? Could they not turn a profit? The demand for these models is definitely there, but at a price lower than FW seems willing (or able) to set.
I would love to buy authentic FW models from the company that did the original sculpts. I don't make that kind of money. /shrug
nosferatu1001 wrote: quite easily, given you have a duty to know who you're buying from, and the fairly obvious case that buying from a Chinese guy stating theyre a recast doesnt help your credibility in saying you didnt know
I meant the slighty less obvious cases ofc.
Like how buying an alternate sculpt of an 'eldar farseer with Shuriken Pistol and Power Sword for use with WH40k' off some random site is copyright infringement but buying the exact same model as 'space elf with laser pistol and sword' isn't.
Or let's say you find on an auction site a dude selling Warhounds for 10$. It's most likely a recast, but can it be proven yo knew it was a recast and not just a very good deal from a clueless seller?
nosferatu1001 wrote: quite easily, given you have a duty to know who you're buying from,
You do?
I'm interested to know where you get that from?
Is it a good idea to know where you're buying from, especially in an environment where you aren't dealing with a person face-to-face and are separated by thousands of miles? Absolutely. But a duty? Sounds a bit excessive to me.
and the fairly obvious case that buying from a Chinese guy stating theyre a recast doesnt help your credibility in saying you didnt know
Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.
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DCannon4Life wrote: I would like to know if Forgeworld (GW) is aware of how much MORE money they'd make if they reduced their prices by 25-30%. Perhaps they don't want to make more money? Could they not turn a profit? The demand for these models is definitely there, but at a price lower than FW seems willing (or able) to set.
I would love to buy authentic FW models from the company that did the original sculpts. I don't make that kind of money. /shrug
Yes, there is a magic point where revenue is maximised, but it isn't always at the highest price per unit, as each price increase will net you fewer sales beyond a certain point. That has to be traded off against cost of production (materials, labour etc..)
If, for instance, a 30% drop in RRP generated a 75% increase in sales, then it would seem to be a good idea, but that assumes production costs are linear. If they aren't (or don't drop significantly beyond a certain volume) then it can mean you're working a lot harder for no significant gain. Then it becomes a judgment call as to whether it is worth all the extra effort.
That said, I really don't see how that would apply to what is essentially a pretty traditional manufacturing set up like FW, as, assuming they didn't massively over invest in production and just did enough extra to keep pace with demand, the only possible disproportionate cost increase in costs would probably be increased wear and tear on moulds, and I somehow doubt the cost of that couldn't be absorbed easily by the increased income.
Personally, I think the biggest barrier to a price drop (assuming the numbers stack up were it to happen) is the GW attitude that they sell premium products at premium prices, and to charge less somehow devalues their brand (and apparently that's more important than making more cash.)
What I would be interested in is a comparison between the turnovers of the recast industry and FW themselves, because FW and BL combined don't generate a significant amount of GW's revenue (~10% IIRC) so it doesn't seem beyond plausible that FW aren't the biggest sellers of FW products on the planet!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 15:22:38
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
DCannon4Life wrote: I would like to know if Forgeworld (GW) is aware of how much MORE money they'd make if they reduced their prices by 25-30%. Perhaps they don't want to make more money? Could they not turn a profit? The demand for these models is definitely there, but at a price lower than FW seems willing (or able) to set.
I would love to buy authentic FW models from the company that did the original sculpts. I don't make that kind of money. /shrug
They are aware, and they're also aware of the cost reduction and quality increase they would get from switching to chinese suppliers - some recasters really put FW to shame.
Anyway, GW is aware of that, they've been working on progressively bringing the FW stuff under the same brand in order to unify the game system, it's a great success so far and the nerf to strength D has made things like Revenant Titans or dual turbolaser warhounds rather tame.
And they have a plan to bring FW even closer in terms of rules, production (finecast+FW would be a joint production unit) and sales channels.
One thing to not underestimate is how much the chinese recasters have helped GW make FW mainstream / accepted.
There would be at least 50% less titans and super heavies in play if the only way to get them was being gouged by ForgeWorld.
Azreal13 wrote: Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.
Recasts are unofficial counterfeits, and are either sold as the originals, or as recasts.
Knockoffs are dodgy, and are treated by the law as such.
Around here, that gets treated as 'receiving stolen goods'.
There's a big thick line between recasting for personal use, and selling recasts.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/07 15:31:53
~1.5k
about copyright in other countries. These sites do eventually get shut down, however.
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