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Just read a few rumours which give food for thought. I am far from gullible but they seem credible so just wanted to post my thoughts.
it seems significant to me for a start that end times book 3 and 4 contain basically the two armies from island of blood, which suggests to me that GW is trying to flog as many IoB boxed sets before 9th hits. therefore i don't see how the rules can change that drastically, prob just an overhaul like 40k 7th.
I'm definitely getting into WFB this year, got a Legions of Chaos army planned but unsure as to whether i should learn 8th edition too much if that makes sense, i might just be better off learning a new ruleset from scratch (which, in my opinion, will be more like 40k, the rules of which i am very familiar with)
regarding rumours of only 6 factions i can only speculate this
Chaos/Skaven
Humans/dwarfs
Elves
Orcs and Goblins/Ogre Kingdoms
Undead
lizardmen

seems a bit drastic?

any thoughts??

The rumours of factions I've seen (bearing in mind they're rumours) is:
Chaos
Undead
Skaven
Orcs and Goblins
Humans
Elves

I don't think it's significant that books 3 and 4 are the armies from IoB, but even if it is them trying to sell more IoB that doesn't mean the rules won't change drastically. The rumours, and while you should obviously take them with salt, they are from people who are generally pretty on ball with what's coming in warhammer, and they're saying its a massive change. Most of the model range invalidated, completely new ruleset (probably more skirmishy, round bases have been mentioned).

Obviously there's a (maybe large) chance that it's complete rubbish, but I would say, do you really want to risk starting an army that in a few months could be completely obsolete? I think it might be safer to just hold off for a bit until we know a bit more what's happening.

I was about to start fantasy too, and I don't want to take the risk now, financially I can't really afford to because I can't guarantee that if it goes tits up, I'll be able to find people still playing 8th, because I have a hard time finding people who play as it is now.

fair points well made. yes lots of salt but i wouldn't put it past GW at the mo. however i still don't think that they'll cut the range by that much. that would alienate so many people and i think the new CEO is smarter than that. so we might see a lot of the range go to webstore only?
with regards to factions i really don't think they'll get rid of Lizardmen, especially as i think they will feature in End Times soon

Lizardmen will be part of the fluff in the Skaven book, they won't get their own book or new models or anything, and the fluff so far already speaks of an exodus, which I wasn't worried about before but with this new rumour doesn't sound very promising.

I'd like to think they wouldn't cut the range that much and the new CEO is smarter, but honestly the sheer fact it's GW almost makes me believe it. Any other company and it would just be ludicrous but GW could do ANYTHING and it wouldn't surprise me too much.

It could be a load of nonsense, I hope it is, even if it's true I hope the models can still be used in whatever springs from the ashes of Warhammer, but I don't think I want to take the risk until we know more.

Quite looking forward to this WFB marines stuff arriving.

just read the fluff in White Dwarf 47 about lizardmen exodus so it does look as though theyre in for a big change however i still can't see such a popular range just disappearing.
i am happy that the army i have chosen will be valid seeing as its in an End Times book.

Most of these rumors sound like bs to me.

Lizardmen are too neat to be eliminated.

Also it seems like they're a seller too, so I don't think it makes sense, as others have said.

All my stuff on ebay NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lizardmen are too unique and visually outstanding to just be . . . shifted off to the side! :(

Really butthurt about this so far, my rather large Lizard army is just going to be marginalized by GW, apparently.

I'm not convinced Lizardmen are going the way of the dodo- they're a relatively unique force in a game of generic fantasy tropes.

However, a lot of the lore is pointing to the Slann abandoning the fantasy world, so that is a bit worrying...

I don't think they are either, I think it's just a rumor. There's no real reason to do it.

My speculation:

The world is grouped into 6 "factions," but in the way that Space Marines are a "faction" in 40k. Sub-faction distinctions remain, and may get their own armybook / supplement / etc.

Of the 6 speculated factions, 4 are obvious:
1) Undead
2) Chaos
3) Elves

These being the 3 thus far included in the End Times supplements. Also

4) Humans

Being the obvious inclusion that GW is unlikely to simply turf. That leaves 2 more. What could these be? Well the remaining armies are:

- Ogres
- Dwarfs
- Orcs and Goblins
- Lizardmen
- Skaven


That's a lot of factions, and none of them group together easily. Many of them have very new armybooks, and a substantial portion of their line in plastic. They're also amongst the most unique and / or iconic races in WHFB. So what to do?

Thus I would suggest that the final two factions are:

5) Skaven, and
6) Lizardmen

Why? Partly because Skaven is getting the next ET book, and Lizardmen are rumoured to factor heavily into that. But also because they're the most settled and civilized of those races, with the exception of dwarfs (I'll get to them). Ogres are a relatively savage, nomadic mercenary culture. Orcs and Goblins are also semi-nomadic and uncivilized.

So what happens to these? I don't think they qualify as standalone "factions," but I don't think they get written out of the game entirely. Right now there are "Forces of Order" and "Forces of Destruction," but I think in the future that will be replaced by these 6 factions. But now there are also "unaligned" forces, that don't really fit into that equation. The nomadic/mercenary groups fit nicely into that.

OnG lack the sophistication to thrive in a chaotic planar realm. They'd either be forced to live haphazard lives as marauding "pests," essentially, infesting random planar bubbles and spreading through contact with others like an infection. That or become slaves to a race like Skaven.

Ogres become much the same, existing as nomadic mercenaries instead of a settled civilization. However instead of chaotic marauders they're more nomadic invaders / mercenaries.

And dwarfs? I think they become nomadic too. Nearly half the models their last (very recent!) release got were aircraft. There is a rumour from Hastings that a large, airship-type model was in production. If there's truly some sort of mass exodus / calamity then it's unlikely that their holds would survive. Thus I believe that Dwarfs become a nomadic race of airship dwellers. It gives them a distinctive flavour from the old Tolkienesque "live underground in holds" dwarfs, and lets them run with the steampunky theme they've had all along. Also why the hell else give a subterranean race the world's most advanced aircraft?


That gives you 6 settled factions, and a number of wildcard "misc" races, that either get their own book or can be occasionally included into the armies of others.

Interesting I like the sky dwarfs idea
I wonder though how long this shakeup has been in the planning? Cos not so long ago the lizards got a new big beastie from forgeworld, can't remember what it was called now but surely they wouldn't have bothered if they knew that the line was ending

All i know is i am awesome for kitbashing all of my elves.

Just for all you saying that the Lizardmen won't be Squatted because they're a "Unique and iconic take on generic fantasy tropes"- consider this. Signs are strong that Tomb Kings will be phased out pretty much completely in favour of Vampire Counts style 'generic überwald' undead. Tomb Kings are pretty much the only non-Überwald undead faction that even exist outside of Hammer horror films in all of Fantasy as a genre. If they're getting the kibosh, I'd not hold out much hope for your scalies.

Anvildude wrote:
Just for all you saying that the Lizardmen won't be Squatted because they're a "Unique and iconic take on generic fantasy tropes"- consider this. Signs are strong that Tomb Kings will be phased out pretty much completely in favour of Vampire Counts style 'generic überwald' undead. Tomb Kings are pretty much the only non-Überwald undead faction that even exist outside of Hammer horror films in all of Fantasy as a genre. If they're getting the kibosh, I'd not hold out much hope for your scalies.

I think Tomb Kings will get the axe from an individual army concept because (a) they've been historically low sellers and (b) they're fairly similar aesthetically to Vampire Counts. Heck, back in the day any of their unique units (i.e. mummies) were in the VC book, so it makes sense to see them go. Overall, I imagine Undead will become some more meshed concept like the Undead in WoW so that they are *somewhat* more unique than their fantasy tropes.

It's probably the same thing that'll happen with beastmen and daemons- forces that used to be part of one book and got spread out in the hopes of creating army diversity. Lizardmen, I'm not entirely sure where they could go without being axed since they're a relatively independent faction. However, all the newer lore stuff about them flying off into space is concerning...but still, I imagine they'll make it back, even if it's as an expansion product. Perhaps they come back to try to pop all the bubbles?

 Accolade wrote:
I'm not convinced Lizardmen are going the way of the dodo- they're a relatively unique force in a game of generic fantasy tropes.

However, a lot of the lore is pointing to the Slann abandoning the fantasy world, so that is a bit worrying...

I still think something's going to go horribly wrong and the Slaan are going to make it out and the rest of the Lizardmen are going to be stuck behind with no idea what to do. It'll let them drastically alter the faction without removing them entirely or contradicting the exodus.

I forsee

Humans - Brets and empire in 1. - cuts one book

Elves -3 factions rolled into one = 2 books cut

Chaos - roll demons, woc, beatsmen into one book... again cuts out 2 books

undead - roll 2 armies into 1, cutting one book

Greenskins - being greenskins. orks are too iconic for whfb to go
Lizzardmen - same as orcs
Skaven - same as orcks
Dwarves - same as orks
Ogres - maybe be reset to a merc status so all armies could take them.

This means 6 Books are cut in total. That is a LOT.

They don't have to worry about 6 armies... Thus enables them to streamline the other armies and strengthen those ranges..

Makes sense.

Dropping down to 6 is bit too drastic. Dropping 6 makes more sense..

Well, right off the bat you can cut four armies right off the bat without changing the dynamics of the forces that much:

- Tomb Kings and VC *used* to be one book, and the concepts between their armies (minus the Transylvania v. Egypt themes) are pretty simlar
- Beastmen, Daemons, and Warriors of Chaos used to all be in the same book. Putting them back together again just means you go right back to the old system
- Bretonnia and the Empire, while being interesting in individual lore, can easily be combined within the same book...especially since a lot of the Bretonnian army is redundant (ie Knights of the Realm, knights errant, grail knights, and questing knights are almost the exact same kit minus some bits and baubles)

If GW decides to go the unified Elf direction, that's two more armies gone right off the bat. We're now at 9 armies remaining:

- Dwarfs
- Ogres
- Orks
- Unified Elves
- Chaos
- Undead
- Humans
- Skaven
- Lizardmen

I'm assuming Dwarfs will join humans (especially if the End Times stuff about them getting severely thrashed is right) and Ogres can join either humans or Orks easily enough, so then we're down to seven. I'm not sure how they would shrink it from here, unless the rumors about Lizardmen disappearing for a time (or altogether) are real. Still, I'd expect they'd at least make an appearance in some sort of additional rules, so it might just be they aren't in the preliminary group.

Maybe the Dwarfs, Humans and Lizardmen can just all team up! And go to war using ancient Aztec holy blackpowder flying machines.

And the guns shoot hammers that have grudges carved on them... and there are snakes wrapped around the hammers also.

I just can't see a massive overhaul of the flagship brand being feasible. Even if I put my capitalism hat on, it just doesn't make sense.

I'm still all for getting a petition together...

You know it wouldn't be the first time a company had to be saved by investors. American Motorcycle maker Harley Davidson was in serious financial trouble in he 80s thanks to companies like Honda, but a company called FMC stepped in and saved the day. True they suffered a bit initially, but after awhile things evened out and HD was able to buyout FMC, regaining control of the company. They still make Harleys...

Of course GW could go the way of the OTHER American Motorcycle Company...

Personally, I think they will pull a storm of chaos on this whole end times and yank it back.

So that 9th edition will have all of the races and GW will believe they will make money hand over fist for not destroying the world....

darkcloak wrote:
I just can't see a massive overhaul of the flagship brand being feasible. Even if I put my capitalism hat on, it just doesn't make sense....

Flagship brand? You mean 40K?

Asteroidhammer Fantasy isn't going to happen. There is no point in killing a game that is on the up swing thanks to the end times.

WHFB is in a temporary upswing with the (albeit very interesting) End Times campaign going on. However, this can't be maintained indefinitely, and the issues that were preventing new players from joining the game (too expensive to start a new army, fiddly ranking systems with large units serving largely as wound counters) will still be present after the campaign ends.

I think they're using the End Times to drum up interest in the game to prime the field for the big changes to come, with the hope that enough people will be interested in WHFB when it undergoes its big changes.

Why would they change the entire game to get more interest when the few things holding it back could be fixed as additions or starter versions of the current game.

I don't really believe the panic that they are going to scrap lots of plastic kits or armies completely.

Changes are coming but not to the point people's entire armies or a large percentage will be invalid IMO.

In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

I would hope to see these rumored changes to 9th edition to actually be the replacement in store to the Hobbit range. Something totally set apart from Warhammer and 40k and also designed as an introduction to the hobby (with smaller model counts and easier rules).

I don't want to see Warhammer as we know it disappear :(

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with fantasy has been LOTR/The Hobbit. If you were to walk into a GW without any prior knowledge you would see two products outwardly very similar (especially because Fantasy draws upon my Tolkien tropes.)

And nothing is more confusing to a potential customer then offering them two slightly different products when they are not sure which choice they should be making.

Well if they walk in to a GW store they'll typically have the staff there to explain the differences and push the product, it wouldn't surprise me if staff are instructed to push people in the direction of WHFB more than The Hobbit these days.

 toasteroven wrote:
Maybe the Dwarfs, Humans and Lizardmen can just all team up! And go to war using ancient Aztec holy blackpowder flying machines.

And the guns shoot hammers that have grudges carved on them... and there are snakes wrapped around the hammers also.

I have to admit, I think this idea would be cool. Don't thnk it would happen though.

Pretty sure hobbit's going to go away in a few years. It's a shame in some ways, because out of the "three lines" It's the absolute cheapest one to set up and play. Whenever they release a new model for Hobbit, it's a finecast model, it's not plastic. That doesn't sound like long term planning..unless it's just cheaper to make a resin model mold as opposed to a plastic one. I'd be surprised if the hobbit/LOTR molds see as much use as the 40k/WHFB ones..


I really see Bret's being wrapped in with The The Empire, and possibly dwarves as well.

I can see Orges and Orks & Goblins being wrapped together

Or maybe we get something like a book of roving band of mercenaries, like the lizardmen, after the slaan left? I know Dogs of War used to be a thing, way back when...

I really don't know.