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Hi,
I recently got a few games that got me thinking...
First example... A Guy played imperial guard.he was Using the Eisenkern stormtrooper set for his guardsmen.
This could be okay but then there were Several Problems...
He didnt gave any of em Special weapons so he placed a die next to the One That carried One.problem... 15 dies lying on the table... U grab one die...ohhh which one got the Special? This? No, this...etcetc...

Heavy Weapon Teams ... Eisenkern got those but its not clearly to See what Heavy Weapon it is...lascanon? No this is a autocanon... Uhmm ok...

Flyers...
A Guy came up and placed a ...military Model, that was supposed to be a vulture on the table, i think it was an f16 or mig...it doesnt fit the 40 k asthetic and it doesnt Match the Original in any way.

Tanks.. Again a guard player...proxies chimaeras with tamyia apc... Again..Weapon Option not clear etc...
This happens quite often in the Last Times.
Argument is always the Same.. Forge is expensive, gw is expensive.. Man ...spare up cash ..whatever...
I will refuse toplay such proxiearmies in the Future

Youroppinion?

I think that proxying models is limited in whether it's converted or not. I once saw an IG army (I feel like I'm picking on IG too much, but they seem to proxy a lot more) that was made to look sort of Sovjet in style, he had some Sovjet Russian tanks (from Airfix or Tamiya or something) but he had 40k weapons attached to it, and the same on his infantry. I'd say that proxy is OK, so long as it is obviously identified.

I don't mind if someone wants to proxy to try a unit out before dropping the cash into it. Two to three games, after that I do expect them to make a decision and either shell out the money or stop using it.

As an IG player I really can't stand people using Airfix/Tamiya military models to proxy Guard vehicles. I don't think I've ever seen one that didn't look completely spastic.

I think it's important, whenever this thread pops up, to distinguish between 'proxy' and 'counts-as'.

Proxies are something that is generally temporary, meant to be a stand-in for a model that can't be afforded or that the player doesn't want to buy (I.e., coke can drop pods, army men guardsmen, etc.)

Counts-as are units that are converted or from another game, but for all intents and purposes are meant to be used in the long term - whether that is to fit the aesthetics that you prefer (Dreamforge games titans being used as Imperial Knights, Eisenkern troopers as guards, etc.) or for ease of use/affordability (Tamiya kits as Imperial Guard vehicles, more affordable alternatives to GW kits, etc.)

Just something to keep in mind, as from the sound of it, the player/s you're talking about your using 'counts-as' models, rather than a temporary proxy.

Another thing that always is brought up in threads like this is that at the end of the day, Warhammer is a game and you're playing it for fun. You're not obligated to play against anyone, except in a tournament setting (but due to the model restrictions in those, this discussion is fairly irrelevant.) If you don't like playing against counts-as, don't play against counts-as. If you don't mind playing against counts-as, but want to be able to read the battlefield better, then don't play against people who don't have easily identifiable models. Hell, you don't have to even play against the guy with a full army of completely legitimate GW models. People do that all the time when they're up against a list they consider 'cheesy'. You can do whatever you want. Our opinion on your preference is irrelevant.

On another note, regarding proxies/counts-as and the price difference, please keep in mind that not everyone can afford an entire Warhammer army - or for that matter, the constantly changing power dynamic that forces you to continue purchasing after you already have an army. Like I said, you can choose to play whoever you damn well please, but don't be too hard on those that want to play the same game but need to go with more affordable alternatives. I'm trying to put together a Sisters army right now, and even for just a detachment it's going to cost several hundred dollars. That may not be a lot for you, you might say 'spare up cash' and look down on it, but for a lot of us, and especially the many college kids that try to play this game, that's no easy feat. To them, that may very well be several months or more of saving just to make that. So keep that in mind before you rag on them too hard.

Opinions on this vary wildly out there and tend to depend a lot on what each one's local community does about it.

I've never, ever had issues with proxies in Fantasy. In 40k you have the obvious problems of size and special weapons.

IMO, vehicle proxies are ok as long as the size more or less matches the vehicle it's supposed to represent (you can bypass this entirely by getting a vehicle that is slightly bigger than the official model, so there won't likely be complaints on that issue). Weapons like heavy bolters, multi-meltas etc. can be easily attached, and it's not that difficult to model autocannons or lascannons with a bit of plasticard and green stuff.

Regarding the special weapons, I'd be a bit more strict. In any case, an alternative model with the correct weapon choice (i.e. you buy some Eisenkern stormtroopers, you attach meltaguns to some of them) is not difficult to put through, so I'd find reasonable to demand that.

As for "Guard proxying", well, guess what, Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy, there are a lot of decent looking and decently priced alternative models out there. Also in the 40k universe there are supposed to be countless worlds which contribute to the IG ranks, and units from each one of these worlds can be expected to have different looks.

You also have to consider nowadays it can take a fortune to deploy a 1600-2000 points IG army. I have a 1850 points army made up from mostly alternative models and it costed me around 300$, If I had gone exclusively for the official product it would have skyrocketed beyond the 750$ mark. Understand other people won't be willing to pay GW's slowed prices. In the end you're playing with metal/plastic/resin models over a table, if those models are an ok representation of what they're aiming to represent (i.e. a human armed with a lasgun/autogun), before complaining you should ask yourself where the hell the problem is supposed to be.

If the answer is "those are not GW models!" then congratulations, you're a gwombie.

I've never had a problem with counts as/proxies in all the years that I've been playing GW games, just as long as they don't ruin the aesthetic that is. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the models are clear as to what they are then I have no problem whatsoever. The line begins to blur when people use minis that bear no resemblance to the GW equivalent whatsoever. As the OP said, a Tamiya MiG or something in place of a Vulture is generally not acceptable.
This ruins the aesthetic that is a big part of the game, and can harm the overall 'feel' of a game of 40k or WHFB. However, if my opponent has obviously taken the time to heavily convert a Tamiya (for the sake of argument) mini, then I have no problem with it.

Some converted 'modern day' Tanks and APC's look amazing, and I would be more than happy to play against them.

With a counts-as army, I do believe it is fair to expect your opponent to actually try to model wargear and such to the best of their ability. While they don't need to us GW weapons and whatnot, at least using visibly different weapons and explaining beforehand, "This thing is X, this thing is y," with the Eisenkern example, the kit comes with different kinds of guns, and it is only through laziness that someone would not use the SMG or panzerfaust to represent whatever special weapon.

I have a Victoria Miniatures Guard army, and while I don't use many special weapons (in lasgun I trust; amusingly effective sometimes) I always make it clear what's what, and that my army is consistently identifiable based on that information.

As for historical/World War models, the issue with them is less "this counts as this," but more finding scale which actually fits; they tend to be much larger than their equivalents, and without conversion work they don't blend in nicely, rather than a functional problem.

Yeah, WYSIWYG would be an issue for me, especially if this is someone's force they intend to use for a long time. I would ask that person to model things that were clear what each weapon was.

As for the vehicle kits, I'd expect some effort to 'Grimdark' the models with some 40k gubbins and appropriate wargear, but I'm mostly concerned with WYSIWYG and general shape/size/footprint.

Then again, my IG force is all 3rd party (Vic Minis), and I intend to use 3rd party vehicles as well, which will look quite different from Russes and Chimeras, but still distinctly WYSIWYG.

As always, WYSIWYG and Rule of Cool are important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTmC60WyKvM#t=147

A great example of an ork bommer that is decidedly not of GW make origins!

If there was 15 dice worth of special weapons out there I would definitely be raising an eyebrow.

I'd be totally fine with DreamForge counts as. But an f-16, nope, the scale model APC... done right? Sure.

But, to me, there's two tests.

1) does it fit the aesthetic?

2) is it WYSIWYG?

Yes to both, play away.

Always think of these

And this. Sry for triple post. Images don't attach right on my iPhone otherwise

Personally, i hate proxies. Like, a lot. If someone wants to try a unit out before buying it, thats completely cool with me. But proxying a bunch of stuff all the time every game is unacceptable. Yes, this hobby is expensive. Thats just a reality of the game. Get over it.

If you use proxies you gotta make sure to choose miniature that look different then the others for special weapons. Besides that there is no problem using proxies.

Unless your a stuck up gak stain

I dunno.
As long as it is somewhat WYSIWYG.
The bare minimum is like this gem for proxy of a drop pod:
(Pop/soda bottles are so versatile!)

Brilliant

Ive no problems with proxies for trying things out, short term or because something isnt painted.
But long term or consistent "abuse" of proxying. Meh, I'll pass.
Part of the appeal of 40k is the aesthetics and having two well painted, well made armies on great terrain is important to me.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'd be totally fine with DreamForge counts as. But an f-16, nope, the scale model APC... done right? Sure.

But, to me, there's two tests.

1) does it fit the aesthetic?

2) is it WYSIWYG?

Yes to both, play away.

Exactly my opinion. The very least you have to have for counts-as models is correct wargear and aesthetics. Everything after that is just adding to a fun experience. using human troopers from AT-43 or Dust as Imperial guard? Fine as long as special weapons and heavy weapons are modelled accurately for 40K.

Now, minor things things as simpe as using something like models with assault rifles (that would normally be an autogun in 40k) but counting them as models with lasguns? Meh, not a big deal at all.

Unfortunately 40k players have gotten ever more anal about things like this topic as the years have gone by and the grognards are swarmed by newbies. Used to be that entire armies of 'counts as' conversions were regularly featured in White Dwarf. Hell, even the latest version of Epic had an official counts-as rule printed right in the main rulebook after lots of vehicle profiles got simplified, so that older players could still use their models.

Proxies for trying new models is fine, and I don't mind the repeated use for the new people who are still working on building their army and want to still take part in the larger games. I am also ok with the count as, especially since I intend to use the Eisenken Stormtroopers as my scions when I finish my current models. With this there has to be a clear distinction f using special weapons. A removable marker like a dice doesn't cut it, saying all your flamers in the squad are plasma guns is fine because they are radically different looking than the rest of the squad's guns. This game can get expensive, and for a lot of the armies you can't buy a pack of plasma guns like the space marines.

 winterwind85 wrote:

Spoiler:

Hi,
I recently got a few games that got me thinking...
First example... A Guy played imperial guard.he was Using the Eisenkern stormtrooper set for his guardsmen.
This could be okay but then there were Several Problems...
He didnt gave any of em Special weapons so he placed a die next to the One That carried One.problem... 15 dies lying on the table... U grab one die...ohhh which one got the Special? This? No, this...etcetc...

Heavy Weapon Teams ... Eisenkern got those but its not clearly to See what Heavy Weapon it is...lascanon? No this is a autocanon... Uhmm ok...

Flyers...
A Guy came up and placed a ...military Model, that was supposed to be a vulture on the table, i think it was an f16 or mig...it doesnt fit the 40 k asthetic and it doesnt Match the Original in any way.

Tanks.. Again a guard player...proxies chimaeras with tamyia apc... Again..Weapon Option not clear etc...
This happens quite often in the Last Times.
Argument is always the Same.. Forge is expensive, gw is expensive.. Man ...spare up cash ..whatever...
I will refuse toplay such proxiearmies in the Future

Youroppinion?

Honestly, it sounds like your problem was more with the players doing a bad job at proxying. Proxies and counts-as can be just fine when done right.

Sometimes even much more evocative than the actual 40K products.

I'm pretty happy with playing with and against counts as and proxies within reason, the model has to match the size as closely as possible for LOS reasons and this normally stops any 'This stormtalon is a thunderhawk' type shenanigans.

I try not to have any counts as in my army, I just prefer not to, although I do sometimes say that a sgts weapon is a powersword not a chainsword and things along those lines.

As others have said it can be a good thing to do if you are considering spending money, I proxied a thunderfire cannon (using two Termies in front of each other) and a regular marine as the techmarine for a couple of games to see if I could use one and decided against it. Glad I did or it would have been 36 quid and a fiddly build/paint for something that now sat on my shelf.

I love a good proxy. Rule of cool tho must come into play.

I'd allow any proxy in a fun game. If people want to try something I always let them. In a tournament you have to to go by wysiwyg.

One of our Locals:
http://www.crimsonorc.com/makeshift-drop-pods-warhammer-40k/

I saw his Pod on the table, and at first glance/walking past, i was almost fooled it was the real thing. Shape is pretty much perfect, with some effort on painting.

The ease of carrying a Pod army around though.... Amazing.

As long as its on the proper base (since that has an in game effect) its no problem.

I have no problem with proxies if they're using them in place of a unit to see how they perform prior to any purchases. Also if they use an alternate GW/FW model and it's explained beforehand to avoid disputes.

I do this myself: I use the FW Thallax models as Obliterators. They're the same size, their weapons suitably represent the Obliterator array of guns, they're bulky enough to avoid LoS disputes. I've never had anyone complain, rather the opposite; they like the models and I always make it clear beforehand.

What I don't like however, is when people decide to substitute models with non-GW/FW stuff, mainly because they claim it's too expensive, such as using a cheap Gundam-esque mech as a Riptide or even a Warhound. This hobby is expensive. Get over it. I'm not saying "All non-GW/FW is bad and you should feel bad", it's just when it's obviously a cheap way to get powerful units with little effort is what gets me mad.

 Valkyrie wrote:


What I don't like however, is when people decide to substitute models with non-GW/FW stuff, mainly because they claim it's too expensive, such as using a cheap Gundam-esque mech as a Riptide or even a Warhound. This hobby is expensive. Get over it. I'm not saying "All non-GW/FW is bad and you should feel bad", it's just when it's obviously a cheap way to get powerful units with little effort is what gets me mad.

So you think only rich people should be able to purchase the right to win more?

To me, if it looks good, it doesn't cause confusion in regard to what it us and it doesn't give an unfair advantage it's fine, whatever the price and the provenance.

 Valkyrie wrote:


What I don't like however, is when people decide to substitute models with non-GW/FW stuff, mainly because they claim it's too expensive, such as using a cheap Gundam-esque mech as a Riptide or even a Warhound. This hobby is expensive. Get over it. I'm not saying "All non-GW/FW is bad and you should feel bad", it's just when it's obviously a cheap way to get powerful units with little effort is what gets me mad.

And what if the model you want is not powerful, but GW decided to make it super expensive and you need multiple counts of it. Like IG or orc stuff.
I was lucky enough to buy my IG in 20man boxs, now they are 10 per box. If I had to buy them now I would never get an army, it just costs too much. Same with ork heavy weapons. How much do they cost 50$+ for a 15pts model?

Makumba wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:


What I don't like however, is when people decide to substitute models with non-GW/FW stuff, mainly because they claim it's too expensive, such as using a cheap Gundam-esque mech as a Riptide or even a Warhound. This hobby is expensive. Get over it. I'm not saying "All non-GW/FW is bad and you should feel bad", it's just when it's obviously a cheap way to get powerful units with little effort is what gets me mad.

And what if the model you want is not powerful, but GW decided to make it super expensive and you need multiple counts of it. Like IG or orc stuff.
I was lucky enough to buy my IG in 20man boxs, now they are 10 per box. If I had to buy them now I would never get an army, it just costs too much. Same with ork heavy weapons. How much do they cost 50$+ for a 15pts model?

IG is also a perfect reason to want non-GW models for purely aesthetical reasons.
Most niche (mordians,vostroyans, steel legion DKoK) lines look nice, nut if you want a more typical SciFi trooper look all you have is Cadian bobbleheads or 3rd party models.

I've got a squad of Large blackreach nobz some of which often proxy different footslogging ork characters that i try out but don't have actual models.

People don't mind it. I try to make it easier for the opponent to identify them.

I also have a bunch of 'counts as' models. Ig soldiers that represent grot gunners. As i'm playing blood axes, it's not against the fluff actually, as blood axes interact with umiez a lot and often have umie slaves 'helping' them out. The guyz are t2 i2 s2 for obvious reasons. Orkses treat their slaves as they treat anything else.

BlackTalos wrote:One of our Locals:
http://www.crimsonorc.com/makeshift-drop-pods-warhammer-40k/

I saw his Pod on the table, and at first glance/walking past, i was almost fooled it was the real thing. Shape is pretty much perfect, with some effort on painting.

The ease of carrying a Pod army around though.... Amazing.

Beautiful! I will have a Drop Pod army on the table in no time!!! The OCD in me still wants to find a way to incorporate that 5th wing for the authentic pentagon shape though. . .