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Hi all
with the new codex in hands, i see many BA list and discussion thread
however, noone seems to use bikes
what's wrong with them?

i normally run 4-6 bikes with 2x grav + 1x combi-grav, plus a MM attack bike; they can run forward pretty fast, shooting 18 graviton shot vs MC (mostly tyranids, but also eldars and tau got a few dangerous ones) and have T5
also, an attack bike is a good thing against both vehicles and mc alike

ofc i should use them and not using a baal/tri-las predator many people have in their lists

so... that's the same thing, just a different play style, or i'm missing some important things?

each-uisge wrote:
Hi all
with the new codex in hands, i see many BA list and discussion thread
however, noone seems to use bikes
what's wrong with them?

i normally run 4-6 bikes with 2x grav + 1x combi-grav, plus a MM attack bike; they can run forward pretty fast, shooting 18 graviton shot vs MC (mostly tyranids, but also eldars and tau got a few dangerous ones) and have T5
also, an attack bike is a good thing against both vehicles and mc alike

ofc i should use them and not using a baal/tri-las predator many people have in their lists

so... that's the same thing, just a different play style, or i'm missing some important things?

Grav Guns have 3-shots per bike model not 6...

each-uisge wrote:

i normally run 4-6 bikes with 2x grav + 1x combi-grav, plus a MM attack bike; they can run forward pretty fast, shooting 18 graviton shot vs MC

I would never use anything else, if it did shoot 6 grav per gun

Why blood Angels?

Why not just use the vanilla book. Their bikes cost the same, have the same weapon, and do not have to pay for the stupid tactical tax since they are troops.

The white scars tactic is strictly better than the BA one for bikes.

Vanilla also has grav cents and thunder fire cannons, and gets to take Captain Smash-fether.

There's no reason to use the BA dex for bikes, vanilla does it better. The BA codex used to be for jumper armies.....now I don't know what it's for anymore.

 Carnage43 wrote:

There's no reason to use the BA dex for bikes, vanilla does it better.

Here's one:

"I own the Blood Angels codex and play a Blood Angels army, and I neither own the C: SM codex nor play a C: SM army."

That's all fine and dandy but op asked why he was the only one who liked using ba bikers... Reason is cause vanilla is better in every way. No reason to get angry.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Why blood Angels?

Why not just use the vanilla book. Their bikes cost the same, have the same weapon, and do not have to pay for the stupid tactical tax since they are troops.

The white scars tactic is strictly better than the BA one for bikes.

Vanilla also has grav cents and thunder fire cannons, and gets to take Captain Smash-fether.

There's no reason to use the BA dex for bikes, vanilla does it better. The BA codex used to be for jumper armies.....now I don't know what it's for anymore.

BA Bikes have access to priests for FNP/+1 WS on their guys, as well as access to +1I on the charge( Baal Strike Force) along with their free furious charge. There are much more of a combat threat then the vanilla codex. I really want to take them in a combined whitescars blood angels biker list.

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Why blood Angels?

Why not just use the vanilla book. Their bikes cost the same, have the same weapon, and do not have to pay for the stupid tactical tax since they are troops.

The white scars tactic is strictly better than the BA one for bikes.

Vanilla also has grav cents and thunder fire cannons, and gets to take Captain Smash-fether.

There's no reason to use the BA dex for bikes, vanilla does it better. The BA codex used to be for jumper armies.....now I don't know what it's for anymore.

BA Bikes have access to priests for FNP/+1 WS on their guys, as well as access to +1I on the charge( Baal Strike Force) along with their free furious charge. There are much more of a combat threat then the vanilla codex. I really want to take them in a combined whitescars blood angels biker list.

I think this is being overlooked on bikes atm. +1WS, +1I, +1S and FnP. Personally I think that equals, if not trumps +1 jink and hit and run. If given the priest for half of the above and another character, say a captain with valors edge, a libby, or a chappy, then they will become rock solid in assault! Give the sarge and priest powerfists (as they don't get a bp & ccw), allow the capt with valors edge to take challenges, and you have a mean unit. Much better than anything WS can muster up for assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WS = better ranged bike army
BA = better assault bike army (but can't be troops)

It also clusters the already stressed Fast Attack slot. When 135pts can nearly guarantee a tank dies to a Melta Assault Squad in a pod, the bikes do what exactly? They hit troops hard in the Assault? Like Death Company, Vanguard Veterans, Sanguinary Guard, Dante and many other units in the codex. The White Scars tactic is good because they're troops, making the 'basic grunt' actually worth something. Instead, Blood Angel bikes just do the same job as everything else in the codex, but this time on wheels!

They're not bad, but they are redundant. Adding a Bike squad with Meltas and a Multimelta Attack Bike would be good to move at the same speed as the Assault based jump packs, but Blood Angels don't need more Assault based units.

I honestly don't feel troops are a concern in the BA codex. I feel the bike do an awesome job of both dealing with armor and high armorsave/MC units, all while performing the job of being an anvil unit for some of our more glass cannonish combat units.

I could easily see a Baal Strike Force army with 2x Bikes lead by priests, a couple units of JP DC, a couple combat scout squads for troops and Dante for kicks. Supported by a SR for air coverage.

Hi all
thanks for reply
yes, grav-gun got only 9 shot, not 18, i miscalculated

i normally use a couple of DC with JP, one SG with priest, flamer tac and 2x asm melta on pod. a scout squad cover the tac tax
i use bikes as "support": 4-6 of them with 2x grav + combi-grav and MM attack bikes

so long, i'm still tuning the list (i olny played one time with new codex!) so i dunno if i will need to merge the DC in a single one, reduce them, add a fragioso or a baal/trilas pred, or whatever.
however at the moment it's not bikes-focused, i just added a unit of them 'cause are the best way to put grav weapon (that in my opinion are the best way to counteract MC spawning) plus they are fast moving, T5, rapid shooter guy (everyone got a twin linked bolter )

btw, i don't see them a lot on BA lists, so i'm wondering:
- i'm doing something wrong, ie i should use them as a full unit with priest and libby and building all my list around them (sort of)
- there is some awful thing about them i fail to look at
- there are way better options for anti-MC in BA codex
- i play too-much against MC-using guys :\

I think you're right in using them as a fast moving shooty unit.

They are mostly redundant as other people have said, except for their ability to move and shoot grav guns well.

I wouldn't say they are redundant. They are T5, have a 4+ jink, have twinlinked relentless weaponary and almost as good a move as jp troops. With fnp they are more durable than any of the jp troops we have and have greater firepower when not in combat.

Because you should be using white scar chapter tactics.

Come on man, at 10+ pages I'd get it if you'd not been bothered to read the thread before commenting... but 1 page in?

We've just had a big discussion about their comparison with WS.

I found an alternative: vanguard equipped with 2x grav pistol each (for a total of 10 grav pistol).
They are more expensive, less resilient and less shooty BUT more useful on assault, a little more maneuvrable, and can deep strike; also, i'm pretty sure there is a formation enhancing vanguard squad

The vanguard squads with free power weapons have to be the deal of the game!

BA with grav-bikes are identical to C:SM with grav-bikes except that you can't get White Scars Chapter Tactics. So if you want to run grav-bikes C:SM is strictly better than BA.

Except they can have +1I, +1S, +1WS and fnp (last two with attached priest) Compared to +1 jink and hit and run. Not strictly better if you plan on assault.

It's going to be my go to unit for grav in the BA. Probably only 5 though. Attack bike's a good idea that i hadn't considered before.

Hit and run is really cool: with +1S and +1I while charhing you sure whant to "escape from assault" then charge again in the next round... If someone could find a way to give them to all DC it would be very overpower...

However, putting a SM allied just to use a single hit and run bike unit is not convenient (even because SM allied will not have the +1I and +1S while charging... :-/

They are good because grav bikers are good. However, I think that the sanguinary priest is not as good as a level 2 libby in a general sense.

each-uisge wrote:
Hit and run is really cool: with +1S and +1I while charhing you sure whant to "escape from assault" then charge again in the next round... If someone could find a way to give them to all DC it would be very overpower...

However, putting a SM allied just to use a single hit and run bike unit is not convenient (even because SM allied will not have the +1I and +1S while charging... :-/

Run 2 CAD. WS allies. Put a WS IC on bike in each DC squad.
Although tbf, DC almost always gut what they charge so it may be a bit wasted.

WS bikes also have scout and ObSec and don't compete for the FA slot.

They do with the khan only.
I'm not sold on them 'competing' for a FA slot the more I look at it either.
5 ASM with 2 plasma and combi-plasma come in at 125pts. 5 bikes with 2 grav and combi-grav come in at 145pts. (Reduce both by 10pts if wanting to compare melta).
For 20pts you get +1T, 4+ jink, relentless, tl bolters compared to bolt pistols, -1A (for the 2 non-spec marines).
They look a lot better than ASM. ASM can use pods, but if podding, you're generally not looking at bikes anyway.
If taking speeders then you are going for a completely different style of army.
The only thing which competes with them is 3MM attack bikes.

Obsec is big, but not so much on assault based squads, which is what BA bikes can be used for effectively.

This is all theory based I'll admit, but the numbers work out.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Except they can have +1I, +1S, +1WS and fnp (last two with attached priest) Compared to +1 jink and hit and run. Not strictly better if you plan on assault.

Why the hell are you taking Bikes if you're planning on assault?

See my post here with my experience with bikes with BA so far:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/626355.page#7428941

To go along with this, I've played my share of White Scar bikes and loved them. With BA though, you can play bikes differently that makes them fun too. You really want max squads to fully take advantage of attached priests, with vsgt and LC/power fist.

As to why you want to assault? Because with BA they can do well. 12 move, HoW, T5, furious charge, WS5, I5, FNP (much of this has been stated before). Against Meq types that's about 6 kills before they swing.

Ideas to make them better? Sources of hit and run: Dante, WS allies. Librarian to buff (quickening, unleash rage, shield etc) or chaplains to reroll. Characters with relics of course is a good option (particularly captain with ap2 sword).

Another idea is to go Flesh Tearers detachment, I believe they have 6 fast slots, plus the bonus to long charges, although you lose red thirst.

Also, compared to WS, if using cover saves, the improved 3+ jink is math wise equal to a 4+ jink and FNP. The difference is WS shooting is neutered, but BA don't care if they are charging something anyway .

As a final note, BA bikes have the potential to literally be the toughest unit SM can come up with, and better chances of keeping in the game until the end.

I'm confused. BA have better melee choices (Death Company, primarily), Bikes have more practical uses (White Scars). Why are you doing something Bikes aren't good at in a attempt to compete with a unit that's better at it in your faction?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Except they can have +1I, +1S, +1WS and fnp (last two with attached priest) Compared to +1 jink and hit and run. Not strictly better if you plan on assault.

Why the hell are you taking Bikes if you're planning on assault?

Because assault lists need to shoot things too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm confused. BA have better melee choices (Death Company, primarily), Bikes have more practical uses (White Scars). Why are you doing something Bikes aren't good at in a attempt to compete with a unit that's better at it in your faction?

Bikes get grav guns and can FNP S8 and S9 hits.

^as martel and ghost_raptur says.

PLUS, bikes get a 4+ jink (those plasma/lascannon/rending shots that wipe DC? Yeh - bikes ignore half of them), still have very decent firepower if not taking grav and are more durable against small arms than DC.
Also DC tend to overkill a lot of stuff, especially with attached characters.

Who says compete anyway? Why not take both?


Why on earth be blind to the fact that because something is good at shooting doesn't mean it's not also good in assault? DC are only good at one of these.