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Someone claimed they were game breaking?

You didnt really discuss the survibility difference of the two and the range advantage of the serpent shield, not the mention the ignore cover rule it has(jink that!). The fact that poison weapons are useless vs vehicles. Str 6 and 7 pounds most vehicles. WSs access to holofields...

I think WSs are light years better than Venoms. Not game breaking by far. I just found your analysis a bit wanting.

What a pathetic and usless comparison that compares one specific element of the operational use of the relative units and nothing about their use against other units, range or survivability.... worthless.

Oh I see you are deleting any kind of comment or criticism - can't take the heat - don't print crap

What others have said, this is a silly article. You might as well compare the close-combat ability of a guardsman with a WS and come to the conclusion that the guardsman is the more powerful model.

I.. I don't even? Why base it on killing Tacticals...? Why ignore the superior Jink? The ignores cover on the shield's gun? The shields ability to downgrade pens if not fired? The fact that it can take a Shuriken Cannon in addition to the other 2 guns?

Yeah, sorry, not much data there to support anything.

Durability, transport capacity, offense vs. a variety of targets are what you want to look at.

The author came out of http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/630519.page on the subject; if anyone's interested in a more in-depth analysis I wrote one up on page six (conclusion: the only Dedicated Transport of comparable quality is the Valkyrie in the Elysians list).

This article has been so heavily edited from its first edition is laughable.

Still no mention of the WS buff of a d6+1 STR 7 potentially twin linked shooting attack that ignores Jink. The best anti WS is another WS!

As well the WS being able to have a 3+ Jink for 15pts.

Still nobody besides me using actual numbers to support their claim.

Im sorry math proves the tank is fine....ur just bad at playing your army.

I did. And provided examples against multiple different targets and relative to several different units.

Your response was "try something that isn't terribad".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/630519.page

 Vaktathi wrote:
I did. And provided examples against multiple different targets and relative to several different units.

Your response was "try something that isn't terribad".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/630519.page

The wave serpent is one of the better things in the Codex, you cant compare it against Bad units of another codex. You need to compare top tier units against top tier units.

Is the wave serpent a pivotal tool in Eldar competitive play? Yea obviously. Is it a game breaking unit like all the scrublords make it out to be? nope.

I propose the article be renamed, "How the Wave Serpent with some load out compares to one other arbitrary model in the game."

Seriously, the presence of math doesn't validate something more than not having math, when the math isn't proving anything relevant.

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I did. And provided examples against multiple different targets and relative to several different units.

Your response was "try something that isn't terribad".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/630519.page

The wave serpent is one of the better things in the Codex, you cant compare it against Bad units of another codex. You need to compare top tier units against top tier units.

Is the wave serpent a pivotal tool in Eldar competitive play? Yea obviously. Is it a game breaking unit like all the scrublords make it out to be? nope.

I compared it to units with similar weapons loadouts. If your argument is "the Wave Serpent is totes good, you can't compare it to just anything", well, that should tell your right there in and of itself that something is wrong, which was my point. When battle tanks loading four heavy weapons and 11-13 shots a turn aren't matching the kill output or anti-tank effectiveness of a Wave Serpent, perhaps the problem isn't with the other units being "terribad", but with the Wave Serpent just being overpowered?

Either way, you did get counter-points with math, you provided no counter to it other than that such units were "terribad" and suggested no other alternatives.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I propose the article be renamed, "How the Wave Serpent with some load out compares to one other arbitrary model in the game."

Seriously, the presence of math doesn't validate something more than not having math, when the math isn't proving anything relevant.

"How the Wave Serpent compares to one other arbitrary model in a one singular aspect"

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I did. And provided examples against multiple different targets and relative to several different units.

Your response was "try something that isn't terribad".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/630519.page

The wave serpent is one of the better things in the Codex, you cant compare it against Bad units of another codex. You need to compare top tier units against top tier units.

Is the wave serpent a pivotal tool in Eldar competitive play? Yea obviously. Is it a game breaking unit like all the scrublords make it out to be? nope.

I compared it to units with similar weapons loadouts. If your argument is "the Wave Serpent is totes good, you can't compare it to just anything", well, that should tell your right there in and of itself that something is wrong, which was my point. When battle tanks loading four heavy weapons and 11-13 shots a turn aren't matching the kill output or anti-tank effectiveness of a Wave Serpent, perhaps the problem isn't with the other units being "terribad", but with the Wave Serpent just being overpowered?

Either way, you did get counter-points with math, you provided no counter to it other than that such units were "terribad" and suggested no other alternatives.

You didnt even use the right Leman Russ, use one with a Large Blast or not the worst loadout.

 Vaktathi wrote:
"How the Wave Serpent compares to one other arbitrary model in a one singular aspect"

"The Wave Serpent or: How I learned to stop worrying and love arbitrary comparisons"? I admit, it could use some more fine turning, but I think we're getting somewhere.

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I did. And provided examples against multiple different targets and relative to several different units.

Your response was "try something that isn't terribad".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/630519.page

The wave serpent is one of the better things in the Codex, you cant compare it against Bad units of another codex. You need to compare top tier units against top tier units.

Is the wave serpent a pivotal tool in Eldar competitive play? Yea obviously. Is it a game breaking unit like all the scrublords make it out to be? nope.

I compared it to units with similar weapons loadouts. If your argument is "the Wave Serpent is totes good, you can't compare it to just anything", well, that should tell your right there in and of itself that something is wrong, which was my point. When battle tanks loading four heavy weapons and 11-13 shots a turn aren't matching the kill output or anti-tank effectiveness of a Wave Serpent, perhaps the problem isn't with the other units being "terribad", but with the Wave Serpent just being overpowered?

Either way, you did get counter-points with math, you provided no counter to it other than that such units were "terribad" and suggested no other alternatives.

You didnt even use the right Leman Russ, use one with a Large Blast or not the worst loadout.

You're not doing yourself any favors here...but sure. Lets assume the Exterminator is the worst loadout...(not something you'll find many IG players agreeing with) just because you said so.

We'll go ahead and use the basic Leman Russ Battle Tank.

The basic Leman Russ Battle Tank one is amongst the least effective Russ variants currently, also with amongst the highest base cost. If the main gun fires, then other weapons can only snapfire (so if it *is* armed with plasma cannons, which can harm it, they cannot fire in conjunction with the main gun at all). and so typically are left unused. So for this example, we're going to assume its not upgraded with additional weapons besides the default basic heavy bolter, because they'll only be able to snapfire in conjunction with the main gun.

It's harder to quantify blast weapons, but lets assume the following.

On average, you'll get 0.416 dead on hits per shot (0.33+0.0833 for BS3 scatter reduction) and effectively will get 0.611 hits on the original model between BS3 scatter reduction and a 5" blast (0.33 dead on, 2.5" blast radius means a full scatter of up to 6" will still hit with BS3 scatter reduction, so the 2/3rds of the time it scatters, 15 of 36 will still hit the original target, so we get an avearge ot 0.2777 hits from that to add to the original 0.33 no-scatter hits).

So assuming that, on average, the blast will miss the original target 0.389 times per shot. Roughly midway between BS3 and BS4.

OK, so we've got our barebones 150pt Leman Russ tank. We've got our assumption that on average, we'll get 0.416 dead on hits and 0.611 shots that will still hit the originally targeted model.



Now, cover, I'll go through this and provide examples for no cover, 5+ cover, and 4+ cover.

Our targets will be the original comparison of a MEQ unit and a T6 3+sv MC. We'll also compare against an AV11, AV12, and AV13 targets.

Now, We've got a basic LRBT at 150pts base.

All sound reasonable? Sweet, lets go.



Leman Russ Battle Tank against MEQ unit in the open.

Now, lets make some assumptions about our target. We'll assume they're not patsy-bunched in a tight clump perfectly suited to a large blast weapon. Lets assume any direct hit will hit 5, and any scatter that still hits the original model (so scatter of 4"/5"/6" before BS subtraction) will hit 2.5 models of the original target unit, we'll assume scatter up to 8" (before BS correction) will hit 1 model, and anything beyond that will miss. Sound Reasonable? OK.

So, using the expected hits at the varying scatter distance above, Here's the math I'm going to follow.

.416 dead on hits X 5 models=2.08
.222 that still hit the original model X 2.5 models=0.555
.203 that still hit at least 1 model=.203
Anything beyond that is zero.

Lets total these. 2.08+0.555+0.203=2.838 hits on average from a BS3 Battlecannon.

Now lets wound. 2.838*5/6 chance to wound=2.365 dead marines.

Lets add in a snapfiring heavy bolter just for kicks

3*(1/6)*(2/3)*(1/3)=.111

So, in total, we get 2.476 dead marines on average assuming *no* cover.

Against marines in 5+ cover

(2/3)*(2.365)=1.57 dead from battle cannon + 0.111 from heavy bolter=1.681 dead marines in 5+ cover

Against marines in 4+

(1/2)*(2.365)=1.183 dead from battle cannon + 0.111 from heavy bolter=1.294 dead marines in 4+ cover




Now lets look at a T6 3+sv MC. We'll be generous here and assume they're on the big oval base, and we'll be VERY generous and assume that any uncorrected scatter of 7" or less will hit.

So, we get an average hit rate of 0.722 hits per shot. We get 5/6 wounds per hit. We get a total of 0.602 average wounds from the battlecannon and 0.055 from the snap firing heavy bolter, for a total of 0.657 average wounds against a T6 3+sv MC in the open

Against a T6 3+sv MC in 5+ cover, we get 0.456 wounds

Against a T6 3+sv MC in 4+ cover, we get 0.356 wounds.




Now lets look at an AV11 vehicle. For vehicles, we can simplify this, once against we'll be VERY generous and assume that any uncorrected scatter of 7" or less will hit.

So, we get an average hit rate of 0.722 hits per shot.

Now, against AV11, we need a 3 or better to inflict an HP loss (can't explode), and we get 2d6 pick-the-highest. This means we inflict the loss of an HP 32/36 times, or 8/9 times (0.888)

Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.642 HP's off an AV11 vehicle in the open,0 .428 against an AV11 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.321 HP's against an AV11 vehicle with 4+ cover. Add in the Heavy Bolter and that's 0.723, 0.511, and 0.404 HP's respectively.

Against AV 12 we'll use much the same assumptions. Hit with 7" or less of scatter, and inflict an HP 27/36 times or 3/4 (0.75)

Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.542 HP's off an AV12 vehicle in the open, 0.361 against an AV12 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.271 HP's against an AV12 vehicle with 4+ cover. Heavy Bolter adds nothing.

Against AV 13 we'll use much the same assumptions. Hit with 7" or less of scatter, and inflict an HP 20/36 times or 5/9 (0.55)

Thus, on average, the Battlecannon removes 0.401 HP's off an AV13 vehicle in the open, 0.267 against an AV13 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.200 HP's against an AV13 vehicle with 4+ cover. Heavy Bolter adds nothing.


So, lets look at your math now. Relatively cheap Wave Serpent with just Scatterlaser and Shield, we'll discount any other weapons or common wargear like Holofields, and say its 120pts versus our 150pt dedicated MEQ killing MBT.

Assuming no cover

Wave Serpent against Space Marines=2.1 Dead Space Marines
Wave Serpent against T6 3+sv MC=1.48 wounds
Wave Serpent against AV11=1.92 HP's inflicted
Wave Serpent against AV13=0.663 HP's inflicted

LRBT against Space Marines=2.476 dead Space Marines
LRBT against T6 3+sv MC=0.657 wounds
LRBT against AV11=0.723 HPs inflicted
LRBT against AV13=.401 HP's inflicted

In each of these categories you used, with the Leman Russ variant you requested and consider superior to the Leman Russ Exterminator (which has the most similar armament possible to the Wave Serpent), the Wave Serpent emerges as being drastically superior every single time, with the singular exception of engaging a Space Marine unit in the open with no cover, and isn't particularly far ahead in that. If 5+ or better cover is involved, the LRBT's performance degrades further exceedingly rapidly in every category while the Wave Serpent's performance remains static or isn't as degraded as far.

This isn't even adding in a possible Shuriken cannon (at still fewer points than the Leman Russ tank) for the Wave Serpent.


So...yeah. The Wave Serpent is drastically superior in kill output against the targets you used relative to the Battlecannon toting, pie-plate slinging, Leman Russ Battle Tank.

One million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets see... arbitrary math comparisons to prove a point.

Light kitted Wave Serpent costs 140.
10 Grey hunters naked costs 140.
5 Wave Serpents win a tournament.
5 squads of naked GH can't make it across the board.

 Pyeatt wrote:
One million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets see... arbitrary math comparisons to prove a point.

Light kitted Wave Serpent costs 140.
10 Grey hunters naked costs 140.
5 Wave Serpents win a tournament.
5 squads of naked GH can't make it across the board.

A squad of grey hunters mathmatically kill a wave serpent in close combat.

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
One million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets see... arbitrary math comparisons to prove a point.

Light kitted Wave Serpent costs 140.
10 Grey hunters naked costs 140.
5 Wave Serpents win a tournament.
5 squads of naked GH can't make it across the board.

A squad of grey hunters mathmatically kill a wave serpent in close combat.

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously with comments like this?

What are there chances of making it into Close Combat - mathmatically?

I notice you don't answer the post about the Wave Serpent vs Leman Russ and the maths included there? Any reason?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
One million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets see... arbitrary math comparisons to prove a point.

Light kitted Wave Serpent costs 140.
10 Grey hunters naked costs 140.
5 Wave Serpents win a tournament.
5 squads of naked GH can't make it across the board.

A squad of grey hunters mathmatically kill a wave serpent in close combat.

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously with comments like this?

What are there chances of making it into Close Combat - mathmatically?

I notice you don't answer the post about the Wave Serpent vs Leman Russ and the maths included there? Any reason?

Chances are pretty good unless ur bad at positioning your units.

Wave Serpents can get Immobilized and Stunned. Wave Serpents also drop off units like Fire Dragons, making them open for a charge the next turn.

You can also force your opponent into a corner. If you place your models correctly and are non bad you can cover the entire 30" Movement Range.

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
One million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets see... arbitrary math comparisons to prove a point.

Light kitted Wave Serpent costs 140.
10 Grey hunters naked costs 140.
5 Wave Serpents win a tournament.
5 squads of naked GH can't make it across the board.

A squad of grey hunters mathmatically kill a wave serpent in close combat.

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously with comments like this?

What are there chances of making it into Close Combat - mathmatically?

I notice you don't answer the post about the Wave Serpent vs Leman Russ and the maths included there? Any reason?

Chances are pretty good unless ur bad at positioning your units.

Wave Serpents can get Immobilized and Stunned. Wave Serpents also drop off units like Fire Dragons, making them open for a charge the next turn.

You can also force your opponent into a corner. If you place your models correctly and are non bad you can cover the entire 30" Movement Range.

Thats incredably situational and not by any stretch of the imagination a standard outcome - it equally depends on the deployment, terrain, scenarios, objectives, and army composition as well as the contents of the Wave Serpent as much as the low possibility of specific damage result to a Serpent -which usually has ways to finese this.

You are still resorting to L2P - which is not helpful.

Any come back on the Leman Russ maths?

Umm, is this some sort of ridiculous troll? 'Cause that would make it a bit more entertaining and make more sense.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
One million.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets see... arbitrary math comparisons to prove a point.

Light kitted Wave Serpent costs 140.
10 Grey hunters naked costs 140.
5 Wave Serpents win a tournament.
5 squads of naked GH can't make it across the board.

A squad of grey hunters mathmatically kill a wave serpent in close combat.

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously with comments like this?

What are there chances of making it into Close Combat - mathmatically?

I notice you don't answer the post about the Wave Serpent vs Leman Russ and the maths included there? Any reason?

Chances are pretty good unless ur bad at positioning your units.

Wave Serpents can get Immobilized and Stunned. Wave Serpents also drop off units like Fire Dragons, making them open for a charge the next turn.

You can also force your opponent into a corner. If you place your models correctly and are non bad you can cover the entire 30" Movement Range.

Thats incredably situational and not by any stretch of the imagination a standard outcome - it equally depends on the deployment, terrain, scenarios, objectives, and army composition as well as the contents of the Wave Serpent as much as the low possibility of specific damage result to a Serpent -which usually has ways to finese this.

You are still resorting to L2P - which is not helpful.

Any come back on the Leman Russ maths?

Assaulting a transport really isnt that situational. You should be able to assault any transport any game unless your just bad.

People complain a Wave Serpent is Objective Secured. Well Objective Secured only matters if the wave serpent is....on an objective. So Turn 5 Eldar the Wave Serpent is on the objective. Turn 5 Space Wolves the squad of GreyHunters charges the wave serpent, killing it.

The vehicle is EASILY killed by ALMOST ANYTHING in Close Combat. Bad players dont want to consider this alternative because they are bad and dont understand how to effectively get units into assault.

The Wave Serpent isn't unique in that regard. Vehicles in general are hilariously easy to kill in CC.

That said, assuming there's an intact squad left on turn 5 that's in assault range of a wave serpent, is usually not something to bet on.

Can it happen? Yes. Is a good Eldar player going to let that happen? No. Is that vulnerability unique to the Wave Serpent? No. Is trying to make the argument that a Wave Serpent is no more powerful than a squad of Grey Hunters absurd? Yes.


So, back to the Leman Russ example, any thoughts? Any other tanks we'd like to look at?

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Wave Serpent isn't unique in that regard. Vehicles in general are hilariously easy to kill in CC.

That said, assuming there's an intact squad left on turn 5 that's in assault range of a wave serpent, is usually not something to bet on.

Can it happen? Yes. Is a good Eldar player going to let that happen? No. Is that vulnerability unique to the Wave Serpent? No. Is trying to make the argument that a Wave Serpent is no more powerful than a squad of Grey Hunters absurd? Yes.


So, back to the Leman Russ example, any thoughts? Any other tanks we'd like to look at?

In Objective Games / Modified Malestorm Objective Games, the Eldar player will be forced to move his serpents onto objectives resulting in putting the serpents into unwanted circumstances.

When a Wave Serpent lets its Fire Dragons out, the Wave Serpent will always be within 12-18" from the target of the Fire Dragons. Assuming there is something next to the target of the Fire Dragons, unless the player deploys badly a Wave Serpent normally dies after dropping off Fire Dragons/WraithGuard.

which is different than your earlier example. Yes maelstrom missions do put a bit more of a stretch on that, but, as shown above, the Wave Serpent also isn't terribly bad at inflicting casualties on MEQ units to whittle their numbers down.

Either way, it's the one real vulnerability the Wave Serpent has, and relies on enemy units nearby already being disembarked to counterassault them, and if they are, you shouldn't have a terribly hard time whittling them down.

Any comments on the Russ comparison, or are we just pretending that doesn't exist?

Think it would be easier to pretend the article doesn't exist, and stop wasting your time on criticizing something where the author doesn't seem interested in learning anything...

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Think it would be easier to pretend the article doesn't exist, and stop wasting your time on criticizing something where the author doesn't seem interested in learning anything...

Only two people in this thread so far have used Math, your not one of those two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
which is different than your earlier example. Yes maelstrom missions do put a bit more of a stretch on that, but, as shown above, the Wave Serpent also isn't terribly bad at inflicting casualties on MEQ units to whittle their numbers down.

Either way, it's the one real vulnerability the Wave Serpent has, and relies on enemy units nearby already being disembarked to counterassault them, and if they are, you shouldn't have a terribly hard time whittling them down.

Any comments on the Russ comparison, or are we just pretending that doesn't exist?

I think your math on to hit chance is wrong. I also think that 5 models under a large blast is on the low side. If you play a REALLY good player who is paying attention than ok, but I think that normally you would get 7-10 models under the blast which would again change the numbers.

Overall I applaud you for looking at actual numbers. I think looking at the effects on an Armor11/12/13 vehicles are interesting. Your the only person besides myself who has actually looked at numbers.

My personal opinion is that the numbers arn't groundbreaking. The Wave Serpent is good, but its not the game ending monster people are making it out to be.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Only two people in this thread so far have used Math, your not one of those two.

Wow. Okay... 2+2=tunnel vision or troll. Neither is worth my time, so, have fun with your immense intellect proven by cold, hard fact.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
The Wave Serpent is good, but its not the game ending monster people are making it out to be.

Who's saying game ending monster? I don't see that being anywhere in these comments.

The majority of well experienced players understand its an effective hammer in a tool box full of hammers.